During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Sorry Money, but we labeled that argument bullshit a long time ago. Some fans love Freeza and Cell from Dragon Ball Z, that doesn't mean that they aren't complete monsters. People love Heath Ledger's Joker but that isn't a disqualification from this trope.
Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold up.
Even with it shown on screen, the example from Insomnia specifically mentions regret. That keeps said monster from being complete.
For the Treasure Planet example, I have to ask... is that it? I mean, we are talking a pirate here. Cold-blooded murder and framing someone iswhat I expect out of a pirate. Unless there's more, I'm inclined to say no.
As a side note, liking a villain because he's evil is Love to Hate. And you can qualify for that while being a Complete Monster.
For Snow White... I'm willing to give the queen a pass, because her evil is entirely selfish and cruel. That said, despite the name, I think Maleficent is much less evil... she's not even murderous, just cruel.
Finally... while I do know that we'll want to avoid temporal words in the One Piece example, I really want more detail on that example. It's further than I've read, and I wonder if it's legit or if it's random hyperbole.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Would you be able to give more detail, then? That entry is still a bit flimsy - I'd like to have it give more solid reasons before we send it to the mods and finalize the One Piece subpage for this trope.
I can't really comment on whether or not he qualifies (I don't really care about him, but I'm very resistant to Complete Monstery), but I'd like to say this: My problem with the new entry's presence was just that he was added too quickly. You could give a pretty nice argument that he does qualify now, but everyone jumped on that wagon as soon as it was announced that he got his kicks from designing weapons of mass destruction. That's certainly an ominous character trait, but at that point, he wasn't developed enough to be a Complete Monster (which this entry reflects) and he was largely added because the signs pointed to him becoming one later.
That errs dangerously close to matching that Big Mom issue earlier, and it sets a nasty precedent for someone to add another Don Krieg/Captain Morgan character that might appear in the future: Guys who are nasty Jerkasses with no redeeming factors, but are not exactly in Complete Monster territory. On that note, I'm still not convinced if Caribou is a legit Complete Monster or if he was added because of this habit (I don't plan on arguing against him, though).
I guess it's a moot point now that the page is about to be locked, but I just wanted to give my two cents.
edited 14th May '12 7:32:08 PM by AquaRegia
Actually, the lock happened a while ago, due to discovering that someone was trying to put edits in that we already took out.
I think that worry is quite legit, particularly if the plot arc is still going on. I'll do a final version of it without said character later today, then holler for a mod to put it in the page instead of the current one.
EDIT: Okay, if there are no objections, I'll send a PM to the mods to get this put on the Complete Monster page for One Piece.
While many of the baddies from One Piece, like Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Spandam and Blackbeard walk the range from insensitive jerks to all out line-crossing assholes, there are a few villains who believe that the above characters just weren't evil enough:
- Several of the Celestial Dragons are slave-owning arrogant bastards. When a slave tries to escape and blows up his collar, St. Charlia of the Celestial Dragons shoots him while complaining about how pathetic it was that he was whining about his family (who he just wanted to see again). Her brother, St. Charloss (introduced while riding on a slave), enraged that a doctor and a nurse carrying a wounded man would dare not to kneel in front of him, kicks the injured man off of the stretcher. He then decides to take the nurse as his wife. When her fiancee complains, he shoots him.
- Shiliew/Shiryu of the Rain, former Head Jailer of Impel Down counts. Completely Ax-Crazy, he murders dozens, if not hundreds of prisoners for fun, claiming them to be "just trash" and making the actual Head Jailer Magellan completely disgusted. When freed, he cuts down his former workmates multiple times with not regard for them and sides with Blackbeard. Also, he thinks of betraying Blackbeard if he does not succeed in stealing Whitebeard's power. It's pretty clear he has no empathy and loyalty for anyone but himself.
- Admiral Akainu, a wonderful example of a Knight Templar who crosses the barrier between Well-Intentioned Extremist and Complete Monster. He debuts while crossing the Moral Event Horizon: he orders his subordinates to blow up a ship of evacuees that the Marines had promised to spare. His justification was that he thought that if there were any survivors from Ohara that the world would be in grave danger, although there's no proof that survivors of Ohara actually present any danger. Later in life, he brutally murders anyone who tries to flee from the battle at Marineford. Then there's what he does to Coby. The kid is pretty much the Only Sane Man and calls out everyone for their violence. Akainu immediately tries to kill him - and they're theoretically on the same side. If not for Shanks... He moves the series into Darker and Edgier territory by causing the first major present-day story death. Let's put it this way: when Sengoku stepped down and Aokiji had to fight Akainu for the position, which Aokiji ultimately lost, he left the Marines rather than serve under him. The guy is that bad.
- Then you've got the regular nobles from Goa Kingdom (the island where Luffy hails from). They burn down a trash area of their kingdom, The Gray Terminal, knowing full well people were living there, all so they can impress the visiting Celestial Dragons with a "beautiful kingdom". What makes this really damning? 1) The whole trash area was created from their own waste they dumped into the grounds daily. and 2) They excuse themselves for this action claiming it was the trash people's fault for not being born nobles.
- Caribou is a complete psychopath who gleefully doles out horrible deaths to anyone who even slightly annoys him, and prays to God to forgive them while he's doing it, and all of his reactions have not-so-subtle overtones of being a rapist.
- There is also Hody Jones, a Fishman who takes Arlong's Fantastic Racism and turns it Up To Eleven. He's more brutal, more racist, more treacherous, and more cruel, but the kicker? He pulls a reversal on Arlong's sole Pet the Dog moment; whereas Arlong was mortified when Luffy used a Fishman as a human shield, Hodi actually uses a Fishman as a human shield against an attack. One of Arlong's former crew, Hatchi, stated that, while Arlong was a bastard through and through, he'd never hurt a Fishman no matter what. Hody, on the other hand, is known for killing any who talk to or know them. In fact, when he tries to take over Fishman Island, part of his plan is to execute all who had signed Queen Otohime's petition. This means that he's planning to murder thousands of its residents. He already killed Otohime and framed the human he hired to burn the petitions in the first place as part of this plan... and got cocky enough to brag about it in front of all Fishman Island.
edited 15th May '12 7:09:29 AM by 32_Footsteps
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
To elaborate on Caribou he's a Serial Killer whose preferred method of execution is to bury his victims alive. He's done this to Marines in the past and to the majority of the Imposter Straw Hat crew during the present storyline. He plans on killing the Straw Hats for notoriety and, after ending up on their ship, his thoughts concerning Nami implies he plans on raping her when he gets her alone. He also works part-time as a slaver, abducting mermaids on Fishman Island to sell at Auction, including those who had unknowingly freed him a barrel he had been imprisoned in. He eventually sets his sights on Princess Shirahoshi when he learns she has a power that can destroy the world.
Edit: For grammar.
edited 15th May '12 1:34:11 PM by OccasionalExister
OK, my 2 cents once again:
The lions from The Ghost And The Darkness: Agree with the cut. They may be implicitly portrayed as demonic forces of nature, but we need explicit for this trope (besides the whole "animals can't have ethics and morals" thing, which I agree with). That said, animals that are actually vessels of Demonic Possession or outright demons in animal form could count if the demonic entity in question was sapient and aware. And I second 32Footsteps about media representations of Real Life people - Idi Amin and Amon Goeth's movie selves should stay.
Walter Finch from Insomnia: Agree with the cut. Regrets, unless proven to be false or purely self-centered (i.e. regretting prison time you did for it, or that the victim didn't suffer more), automatically disqualify him even if he otherwise fits like a glove.
Owen Davian from Mission Impossible 3: Agree with keeping him in. He kinda makes me think "Anton Chigurh, but as a terrorist".
Shockwave from Transformers Dark Of The Moon: Agree with the cut. He's pretty much par for the course for the film in terms of villainy, and there are some villains in there that are a lot worse. If we put him in we may as well put in all the Decepticons who went Mars Attacks on Chicago and turned its citizens into used Kleenex.
Scroop from Treasure Planet: Not sure about him. His actions may be bad, but as said before they're somewhat expected from a pirate. Unless of course pirates in that 'verse are softer than in Real Life and/or are very disturbed by or dissapproving of the lengths he'll go to, but that would admittedly be a very close pass.
The Evil Queen from Snow White: Agree with keeping her in. She actually does accomplish her goals, it's just that someone manages to undo it. Also, the sadistic glee with which she pursues her goal sets her appart from Maleficent. And speaking of which...
Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty: No, we're not putting her back in. I wrote a piece about 2 years back as to why (which also covered Gaston), and the vast majority of tropers here seem to agree even if the subject crops up now and again (including about 2 weeks ago).
Caribou from One Piece: Holy crap does he ever qualify. I think a longer writeup on him with Occasional Exister's additional info should do it.
Lastly, I personally still think St. Jalmack, the World Noble who killed Luffy and Ace's childhood friend (can't remember the name right now), counts, given that the kid was both harmless to him and cut in front of his ship by accident, and that the only solution he bothered with was murderous overkill. He also proves himself a hypocrite (admittedly not much of a stretch for a Celestial Dragon) by claiming all he did was apply "justice" against a "pirate", a pretty obvious bum excuse for the murder of a child. He was also, coincidentally, the World Noble visiting Goa Kingdom that the local nobles wanted to impress and crossed the Moral Event Horizon for.
edited 25th May '12 10:34:16 AM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Actually, other pirates do disapprove Scroop's actions, and they are happy when he dies.
Also, T-1000 from The Terminator 2 is on the list.
- Arguably, the T-1000 from Terminator 2: Judgment Day. While the other Terminators are more or less drones, save for "Uncle Bob" (and that was implied to be done by reprogramming on future John Connor's part), the T-1000 actually shows hints of active sadism throughout T2, even torturing Sarah in an attempt to force her into calling John out of hiding, and later pausing before going on the attack just to tauntingly intimidate Sarah and John.
So, the description does imply that he is nasty, and more sadistic than other machines, but he is still a machine; isn't he programmed to do all these things?
edited 16th May '12 4:21:39 PM by MONEYMONEY
Oh, wait, the example from Treasure Planet is detested even by other pirates? That does change my estimation a bit - when you have other bad guys glad that you're not around anymore because they thought you were too dangerous, that does have me considering a bit harder for Complete Monster status. I suppose it comes down to whether those actions are seen as all that heinous in general by pirates. The acts in question still sound like "generic pirate actions" by someone who was a Jerkass while he did them. If I'm mistaken on this, though, I'm willing to reconsider.
I agree with nrjxll - If you have to argue, then the answer is no. More specifically, it's programmed to do those acts, and would emotionlessly do any act to perform its mission. It's made quite clear early on that the reprogrammed T-800 was just as willing to do such acts to perform its mission due to its programming.
For St. Jalmac (the Celestial Dragon that killed Sabo)... I just reread the volume in question, and he shows up for a couple of panels. By no means do I support killing a kid for flying a pirate flag and getting in the way of someone else. But there's very little involved here. It's much the same reason that we don't include Big Mom - yes, it's heinous, but we have so little context for the entire thing that there just isn't enough to include them. I'm inclined to treat him just like we treat Big Mom - if Jalmac shows up and does more evil and shows just what kind of callous being he is, we can add him then. Until then, while evil and puppy-kicking, he doesn't qualify yet.
Anyhow, with that much better write-up of Caribou, I think we're ready to put up the following on the One Piece page.
While many of the baddies from One Piece, like Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Spandam and Blackbeard walk the range from insensitive jerks to all out line-crossing assholes, there are a few villains who believe that the above characters just weren't evil enough:
- Several of the Celestial Dragons are slave-owning arrogant bastards. When a slave tries to escape and blows up his collar, St. Charlia of the Celestial Dragons shoots him while complaining about how pathetic it was that he was whining about his family (who he just wanted to see again). Her brother, St. Charloss (introduced while riding on a slave), enraged that a doctor and a nurse carrying a wounded man would dare not to kneel in front of him, kicks the injured man off of the stretcher. He then decides to take the nurse as his wife. When her fiancee complains, he shoots him.
- Shiliew/Shiryu of the Rain, former Head Jailer of Impel Down counts. Completely Ax-Crazy, he murders dozens, if not hundreds of prisoners for fun, claiming them to be "just trash" and making the actual Head Jailer Magellan completely disgusted. When freed, he cuts down his former workmates multiple times with not regard for them and sides with Blackbeard. Also, he thinks of betraying Blackbeard if he does not succeed in stealing Whitebeard's power. It's pretty clear he has no empathy and loyalty for anyone but himself.
- Admiral Akainu, a wonderful example of a Knight Templar who crosses the barrier between Well-Intentioned Extremist and Complete Monster. He debuts while crossing the Moral Event Horizon: he orders his subordinates to blow up a ship of evacuees that the Marines had promised to spare. His justification was that he thought that if there were any survivors from Ohara that the world would be in grave danger, although there's no proof that survivors of Ohara actually present any danger. Later in life, he brutally murders anyone who tries to flee from the battle at Marineford. Then there's what he does to Coby. The kid is pretty much the Only Sane Man and calls out everyone for their violence. Akainu immediately tries to kill him - and they're theoretically on the same side. If not for Shanks... He moves the series into Darker and Edgier territory by causing the first major present-day story death. Let's put it this way: when Sengoku stepped down and Aokiji had to fight Akainu for the position, which Aokiji ultimately lost, he left the Marines rather than serve under him. The guy is that bad.
- Then you've got the regular nobles from Goa Kingdom (the island where Luffy hails from). They burn down a trash area of their kingdom, The Gray Terminal, knowing full well people were living there, all so they can impress the visiting Celestial Dragons with a "beautiful kingdom". What makes this really damning? 1) The whole trash area was created from their own waste they dumped into the grounds daily. and 2) They excuse themselves for this action claiming it was the trash people's fault for not being born nobles.
- Caribou is a a Serial Killer whose preferred method of execution is to bury his victims alive. He's done this to Marines in the past and to the majority of the impostor Straw Hat crew during the story. He plans on killing the Straw Hats for notoriety and, after ending up on their ship, his thoughts concerning Nami implies he plans on raping her when he gets her alone. He also works part-time as a slaver, abducting mermaids on Fishman Island to sell at auction, including those who had unknowingly freed him a barrel he had been imprisoned in. He eventually sets his sights on Princess Shirahoshi when he learns she has a power that can destroy the world.
- There is also Hody Jones, a Fishman who takes Arlong's Fantastic Racism and turns it Up To Eleven. He's more brutal, more racist, more treacherous, and more cruel, but the kicker? He pulls a reversal on Arlong's sole Pet the Dog moment; whereas Arlong was mortified when Luffy used a Fishman as a human shield, Hodi actually uses a Fishman as a human shield against an attack. One of Arlong's former crew, Hatchi, stated that, while Arlong was a bastard through and through, he'd never hurt a Fishman no matter what. Hody, on the other hand, is known for killing any who talk to or know them. In fact, when he tries to take over Fishman Island, part of his plan is to execute all who had signed Queen Otohime's petition. This means that he's planning to murder thousands of its residents. He already killed Otohime and framed the human he hired to burn the petitions in the first place as part of this plan... and got cocky enough to brag about it in front of all Fishman Island.
I'd mentioned a few pages back that both Yammy and Nnoitra are listed on the Bleach subpages (as deconstructions, weirdly). How does that work? I'm not sayiing that either of the murdering bastards deserves a medal for respect for human life, but they just don't qualify for this trope.
Yammy is a joke. A big, dumb, thuggish joke. Yes he does awful things. But nobody takes him seriously. Ichigo doesn't. Uryu doesn't. Kenpachi and Byakuya don't and that's after the revelation that he's the Zeroth Espada. None of the other Espada take him seriously. He's essentially Ulquiorra's muscle and that's it. He's the Butt-Monkey of the Espada.
As for Nnoitra, one could make a better case for him. He's a deeply unpleasant character, with no real good points. He even seems to get under Ulquiorra's skin. Yet at the same time, he's looking to die. Everything he does is based on the idea that all Hollows are damned anyway, and that neither he nor his comrades will find redemption. His tortured relationship with Nel is played for tragedy, he's got a clearly insane death wish, and he gets a surprisingly effective Alas, Poor Villain. I'll cheerfully link anyone to that last thing.
I've also noted that the leaders of the Vandenreich are already being listed. Does anybody else remember the start of the Ginjo/Tsukishima arc, where everyone was wanting to list Tsukishima as one? And then we saw his flashbacks and found out he wasn't? Tite Kubo loves Alas, Poor Villain and last minute reveals about his antagonist's motivations. Shouldn't we keep those guys off the list until we know more about them?
I am really sorry for the distraction all the time but I will now bring to more villains to the discussion (and maybe more later)
- Colonel Zaysen from Rambo destroys entire Afghan villages and kills innocent people, including women and children, with mines, bio-weapons, and other evil stuff for no reason at all, even when said people did nothing at all.
- Also, Art Galt from the first film, who brutaly harasses Rambo, and later tries to kill him in cold blood, despite the Sheriff's statements that he wants Rambo alive. He then tells his pilot, that he will kill him too, if he does not fly straight.
Zayson is more obvious example than Art Galt, but still, many of his actions are committed OFF-screen (though we may be sure he committed them (he even states couple times)), and he doesn't really feel so repulsive like lets say... The Joker or Tavington.
As for Galt, well I will admit that I added him to the list when i first watched Rambo because I felt really repulsed by him. When I watched the movie again I thought again and decided that he mistreat Rambo, but still, he thinks that Rambo is a criminal. When he tries to kill him, it is undestantable that he still considers him as an outlaw, and he is just a bit worse than other prison guard and the Sheriff, but not necessarily a CM.
First off, I do believe before that we said that there are to be no deconstructions on the Complete Monster pages. So far as I know, every single deconstruction of Complete Monster is built enough that they have their own trope pages. As such, since the deconstructions have become their own tropes, they should be placed on those trope pages instead of Complete Monster.
I'll be honest, I was mostly letting other people handle the Bleach pages due to relative distaste for the series. Care to dig up the post numbers for the previous discussion on them? Anyhow, I'll give my remarkably ill-informed opinion on them both, since it was asked for.
I'm actually inclined to leave Yammy on, based on that description. As I've said before, I gauge less on whether or not the characters do treat a would-be Complete Monster seriously, but whether they should. That's why we have tropes like Obfuscating Stupidity. My judgment isn't whether the characters treat him seriously. It's whether the story treats him seriously.
Quite simply, that argument as to why he should be removed isn't cutting it for me.
Nnoitra, I'm a little more receptive to cutting. It sounds a bit like the story tries to get you to legitimately pity him. Almost like the character is trying, but failing, to actively invoke the trope. So, absent anyone else's input, I'd be likely to cut him.
Zaysen from the Rambo movies... I don't know, while it's been years, I seem to recall them actually showing him doing something (or at least attempting it) on one of the villages once. I agree talking about it isn't enough. That said, it's been years since I've seen it... does he merely talk about it, or does he at least try to do it on-screen (it still counts if he attempts it and is stopped by a third party).
I agree on Galt - while perhaps a bit more brutal than I would be in his position, if you move away from Protagonist-Centered Morality, Galt's position actually makes sense. From his viewpoint, John Rambo is a dangerous murderer, and he could easily reasonably believe that it's safer for everyone to put him down. And I don't put stock into threats to kill someone unless they actually pull out a weapon while doing so. So I'm inclined to cut that example.
As for why no Madara Uchiha - so far as I can tell, nobody has made an argument for him. If you think he qualifies, state your case.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Ah, I thought so. Zaysen counts then. The point of Complete Monster is just their willingness to attempt evil deeds, not whether or not they succeed in them. Since commanders have underlings for a purpose, sending them to commit atrocities does count for Complete Monster.
For leaders of various stripes, they're effectively using their underlings as tools. The leaders are still responsible for the acts in question. (Ordering your men to do those acts instead of doing them yourself is a small-scale case of Pragmatic Villainy, really).
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Weighing in on Bleach, I think I've already stated that I agree that neither Yammy nor Nnoitra fit the criteria. As mentioned earlier, Nnoitra—while awful—simply has too much genuine pathos as part of his character for me to be comfortable with him qualifying.
As for Yammy, it's not just that the characters don't take him seriously. The story doesn't really take him seriously either; he's treated as a joke almost the whole way through, the one brief exception being when he's rousting Chad, Rukia, and Renji. He's revealed to be the Zeroth Espada, so he ought to be a huge threat—but instead of having a serious fight scene, like every other espada, he's barely paid attention to by Byakuya and Zaraki, who cut him down with barely a second thought because he's interrupting their argument. It's so anticlimactic it's almost funny.
And I also agree that it's too early to add the Vandenreich. Wait until the arc is done.
I've found that most Complete Monster qualifiers who are not taken seriously by the cast are similarly not taken seriously by the plot, largely because characters and their interactions often function as extensions of the plot.
Something that evil usually requires the creative intervention of the author; the author would want you to take this guy seriously as evidenced by their acts, and this "want" often also disseminates in the form of character interaction. Having the cast treat this character as if they were a nobody generally compromises this and often shows that the author doesn't really care too much about this person, and thus their significance in the plot's big picture wanes. Among Complete Monsters, even non-combatants, Dirty Cowards, Smug Snakes and the like are usually treated viciously by the cast when they are rendered thoroughly ineffectual.
If a proposal against as character says that he/she is not taken seriously by the cast, then I'd take that into consideration unless that example could be reinforced with context.
Also, perhaps Yammy being the 0th Espada could be analyzed. I know next to nothing about Bleach, but if I recall correctly, Yammy being the 0th Espada was a send-up to a joke or a meme. If this is true, then that alone strikes me as if the author thinks that Yammy could still approached with levity, especially if he dies in such an anti-climactic fashion.
edited 17th May '12 5:48:00 PM by AquaRegia
Hello again, This time I'm here to discuss whether Starscream from Transformers Cybertron should be on the Complete monster page. He's a far cry from the noble demon, and undyingly loyal starscream of Armada and Energon. He doesn't seem to have many good qualities, but I feel he fits the Magnificent Bastard or Determinator tropes rather than this one. He does try to kill the autobots, and fights Their god (get's his ass handed to him though), but he isn't an omnicidal maniac like Galvatron (He was no longer Megatron at that point). If you respond, label it, because there are several other discussions going on.
My worry about Bleach is that we're kind of going in the dark on this. Is this character being treated seriously or not? Is it just a character thing, or is it the whole story? I feel like we ought to request a couple of Bleach fans to discuss the character at length, because I don't have a grasp of what's going on there at all. I can't really give an effective opinion without one.
(Though there is the argument that such a lack is probably evidence that we should cut the example... even if only to encourage someone to come here to defend it, similar to how editing suspensions are handled.)
As for Starscream... first off, there is absolutely nothing to say that a Complete Monster cannot be a Determinator. The former is irredeemably and horrendously evil; the latter just never quits. In fact, the idea of a Determinator Complete Monster has me fascinated and slightly scared, because holy shit, that's some commitment to being a cruel and heartless bastard. Those two tropes overlapping just creates an absurdly focused villain.
However, it is a rare Magnificent Bastard that manages to qualify. Generally, such magnificence is accomplished because of Pragmatic Villainy, which typically keeps someone out of Complete Monster territory simply because the actions that get one pushed into total CM territory are not at all pragmatic. I'd be open to acknowledging a Magnificent Bastard as a Complete Monster... but to pull off that level of magnificence while being that monstrous is pushing a character into Villain Sue territory.
So, I suppose the question is, what's Starscream's modus operandi in this incarnation of the franchise? How does he treat foes? What are some of his worst actions? I need more info on him before I could vote either way. (Also, based on past Starscreams, I also wonder if he's actually a Magnificent Bastard or just a Smug Snake.)
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Having been a Bleach fan for a long time I think it's fair to say Yammy doesn't count. He gets manhandled by Ichigo in his first appearance, and then smacked around by Ulquiorra as punishment. Subsequent appearances make him the Butt-Monkey of the Espada. He's a nasty thug, but he's little more than that. As he was described on The Brute page he is an "underwhelming, Dumb Muscle bruiser." His performance in battle is abysmal, he's taken out for interrupting an argument, and the revelation that he's the 0th Espada (which would theoretically make him the most powerful) is treated as the ascended meme that it is. A lot of the villain deaths were underwhelming in Bleach, but Yammy's defeat is in a class by itself for lame.
Nnoitra—have to agree with the guy who talks about how there is pathos there. The character is certainly attempting to be a Complete Monster in-story, but we spend too much time in his head as the audience to fully view him as such. He really is played for tragedy more than anything else. It's also worth noting that when Zaraki arrives, the first thing Nnoitra does is warn his right-hand man, Tesla, to run because he doesn't stand a chance against Zaraki. Nnoitra is a bad, bad guy, but compared to Szayzel, Aizen, and even the likes of Mayuri (theoretically a good guy) he just doesn't hold up.
EDIT: Here is his death scene for those who wish to see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUyH73GfKno
So are we going to remove the Vandenreich examples? We know nothing about them as of yet. A few months ago people were falling all over themselves to list Tsukishima, Ginjo, et al., but events proved they didn't qualify. Is the same thing not a possibility here?
edited 17th May '12 9:55:03 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Regarding the new One Piece list:
I'm pretty sure this kind of 'time-specific' language isn't really allowed. The wiki isn't supposed to be writing from a particular standpoint when it comes to work releases.
edited 14th May '12 5:49:40 PM by nrjxll