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There is something in this thread that really concerns me. I gotta talk about one villain I think might have to be cut.

Ok so Biara has 1 yes vote, 1 no vote, and 2 unsure votes. Do we have anymore votes for her?

Who is it?

@Scraggle I put Fanfic!Grima on hold because the author wrote an ongoing sequel that all but states Grima may be back. In other words, his arc isn't quite finished.

That, and another fanfic I'm reading for a potential keeper is over 100 chapters.. yeah...

edited 28th Jul '17 11:53:10 AM by erazor0707

Girolamo Savonarola from Assassins Creed II. While he could easily qualify in any other work, the game has a much more heinous villain, Rodrigo Borgia who is on the Never Again list (though, I read old discussion on him, and the criteria on which he was disqualified actually flexed and he might have to be looked on again). I can see them both not counting or maybe but less likely both counting. But I can't see Savonarola counting and not Borgia. I did not consider Borgia a CM but I replayed the game and he is certainly worse from Savonarola. So Savonarola might have to go.

edited 28th Jul '17 11:54:47 AM by emperors

Late yes to keeping Kodai.

And to the Colonel. He clearly cared for his son and is regretful for killing him. And I find him insufficiently heinous compared to Koba.

Now I decided to not being up my other two "weak but might have a shot" candidates, but decided to get around with dealing with a loose end from my previous to do list. As promised I waited until the DVD release of Pretty Little Liars final season to see if there's any new candidates.

For those who don't know, Pretty Little Liars is a mystery drama show that initially focuses on high school girls, the titular liars, Aria, Hanna, Emily and Spencer who find themselves being stalked by a figure known as "A" who threatens to reveal their secrets. When the original "A" is revealed to be a mentally unstable friend of their named Mona, the mystery became more complex to Red John extremes, as what is known as the "A Game" with a new "A" involves amassing a small army as part of a conspiracy, relentless creative, and even elaborate ways to torture and threaten the Liars and their loved ones, to even minor acts of terrorism and even murder. With how elaborate the mysteries are, and skeletons in pretty much everyone's closet, overarching mysteries of the series "What happened to Alison ?" and "Who is behind the "A Game" ?" takes five seasons and half of season six to finally get to the bottom and trust me. they are both looooong stories that I can't make them short. Half way through season six, is the "A Game" finally beaten with the new "A", Alison's brother/sister/cousin Charles/Charlotte DiLaurentis AKA Cece Drake admitting defeat and being arrested after an apparent Heel Realization.

Of course this being a Series Fauxnale, we get the second half of season six and the entirety of season seven as something of a sequel to the previous storylines. Picking up five years later, the Liars have since graduated high school and moved on into the world now leading their own adult lives. Of course they are called back into town when Cece is to be released from the mental institution after apparently reforming, but a new "A Game" begins following Cece's murder, with the Liars now menaced by a figure known as AD. This new mystery now involves the introduction of the Drake family, whose most important secret is being that Spencer and Cece are sisters as Spencer is biologically the daughter of Alison's aunt Mary Drake.

So now that I finally finished the series I have to say...no one counts.

1. Archer Dunhill - Is credited as one of the hidden main antagonists in season 6 and a secondary antagonist in the first few episodes of season seven. He poses as a man named Elliot Rollins to marry Alison and seemingly help her with Cece's mental recovery. It turns out he was Cece's secret lover who plots to drive Alison insane and psychologically torment her even when she's hospitalized. He doesn't count for clearly caring about Cece.

2. Mary Drake, Cece and Spencer's mother, is portrayed as an Anti-Villain who genuinely cares about her family and has a sympathetic past. The worst thing she does is in her based Rape by Fraud with Spencer's father, and helped Archer torment Alison. Her honestly worst quality is the fact she's undyingly loyal to her children, both good and bad.

3. Cece Drake, the one who originally took over the A Game from Mona and upped the stakes in her game, culminating in her torturing the Liars in a giant "dollhouse" for weeks and attempting to blow up the mental institution where she grew up. Only reason I bring her up is because it's revealed she was faking her Heel–Face Turn, and was planning on starting a new A Game and implies she was going to extend her game to the whole town before she's killed. She still doesn't count for a number of reasons; her past is still pretty sympathetic and explains why she's psychologically messed up, in a flashbacks she has Even Bad Girls Love Their Mamas moments, appears to care about her boyfriend and clearly cares about her newly discovered sister.

4. Cece's killer, Mona, the original "A" from back in season one who Cece stole the game from. Throughout the entire series, Mona was consistently played as an Anti-Villain, who suffers from mental issues, was insufficiently heinous, especially compared to the later antagonists, has numerous redeeming qualities and almost always has well intentioned, if disproportionate, motives. Even when she kills Cece, it's because she rightly guessed that she hasn't changed and wanted to prevent another A Game, ironically paving the way for AD. Even the killing itself was an accident. Of course at the end of the series she imprisons AD and Mary Drake in a dollhouse of her own, musing that she won the A Game once and for all.

5. Wren Kingston, a returning character from the early episodes who was Ambiguously Evil back in the day, and appears to be The Dragon to AD. It's revealed that a Face–Heel Turn is subverted and he's being reluctantly pushed to help AD.

6. The new Big Bad, AD aka Alex Drake, Mary Drake's third child and Spencer's twin who starts a new game following Cece's death for the purposes of avenging Cece. Throughout her game, she kidnaps Hannah to force the Liars to help her, has Alison artificially impregnated with Wren Kington's sperm and Emily's stolen eggs (she claims that his torment was an independent move on Dunhill's part), blackmails Aria throughout the second half of season seven and of course tries to kill the Liars through two henchmen as well as tries to blackmail them with Dunhill's death (despite it being a combination of self defence and an accident). When Alex finally catches up to Mona, rather than kill her to avenge Cece, she decides to use her as a pawn to spy on the Liars. Alex's end game was to lose as Spencer and take over her life, and even commits Rape by Fraud with her boyfriend Toby. She also kidnaps and plans to murder Aria's fiancé Ezra when it dawns on him of who she is. It's also discovered she murdered Wren and disposed of his body in a...creative fashion by turning his ashes into diamonds. As for her Freudian Excuse, she was Spencer's twin separated at birth and was adopted by a rich family in England, only to be put in an orphanage when she had issues, ran away and jumped from foster home to foster home. When Wren met her, she was a bartender who he mistook for Spencer, where Alex learns about her family. Alex had a relationship with Wren, who introduced her to Cece. The two had an instant sisterly bond, and in turn Cece told Alex that the Lairs are "toxic". While she doesn't care for most people in the show, even treating her own mother more like a henchmen, what disqualifies her is her relationship with Cece; she wanted a family who cared about her and Cece is literally the sister she never had and now she's dead. Even with her mixed motives, especially regarding avenging Cece, she still speaks as she's cares for Cece, even if it takes a back seat to wanting to be Spencer.

So there you have it and now my current CM watch-list is officially complete. I should start having more to talk about by the time the weekends done. Going by the previews, the last ten episodes of Teen Wolf should give me at least four charactsrs to talk about.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:02:17 PM by Beast

Anyway, as a proof Savonarola might not belong, read his entry while I will list Borgia's crimes;

• Ordering the deaths of Ezio's father and brothers (one of whom was a child).

• Killing underling that failed him.

• He was a mastermind behind Templar actions in the game and ordered the Pazzi family to exterminate the Medici family.

• In Discovery, Rodrigo ordered Tomás de Torquemada (who counts) into killing people Rodrigo labelled "heretics" but were really Spanish Assassins.

• He had the leader of Florence, Giovanni Mocenigo, assassinated and replaced with the evil Marco Barbarigo, so that he himself could control Venice.

• Trying to poison his own son in the sequel because he threatened his power over Rome.

So in the end, is Girolamo really heinous enough? Even with Borgia around?

edited 28th Jul '17 12:11:45 PM by emperors

FOUR characters from Teen Wolf? Geeze. And we already have 6.

Also, Girolamo still seems bad enough. There's Withholding the Cure, among other acts.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:15:23 PM by ACW

Well three of them are returning villains.

If Girolamo sounds bad enough, we then have to include Rodrigo (and I personally, don't think that second game can have any candidates since heinous standard there is so high).

Also, the part of Never Again list about his crimes being Offscreen should be cut. All the ones I listed were onscreen.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:18:59 PM by emperors

No, we don't "have" to include Rodrigo. He's on the Never Again list for a reason and we're not bringing him back up for discussion unless you have a damn, damn good case to make with some new evidence that proves he stands out among the series' other qualifiers.

Which three, Beast? Gerard, Theo...

I am not arguing he should be included but I can't accept Savonarola on the list. I would rather not see any of them than see them both. But seeing only Savonarola is the last thing I wanna see.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:22:57 PM by emperors

I'll wait for others to chime in on Savonarola.

And Emperors? Calm down, please. Stating "Savonarola on the list is the last thing I want to see" is a needlessly aggressive way of trying to get him unlisted that speaks far too much of your recurring issues with biases when it comes to this trope.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:24:28 PM by Scraggle

Sorry. But I feel this thread is sometimes a little bit misleading with E Ps. The user who E Ped Savonarola did not list crimes of other characters.

If all those crimes were indeed onscreen, Rodrigo MAY merit a re-discussion (or at least indeed removing that part of the reason).

BTW, here's Savonarola's EP.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:31:02 PM by ACW

They were, but you heard what Scraggle said? Never Again list is for a reason.

edited 28th Jul '17 12:32:26 PM by emperors

Yeah. At the very least, for accuracy's sake, I'd be fine with just making the reason "Disqualified for being no more heinous than many other characters in the story." (Which I'm not even sure on, but it'd at least be correct)

Also, shall I add this, and the image of Markus?

edited 28th Jul '17 12:49:56 PM by ACW

Yes.

Do we have any votes on ACW's rule change proposal?

I can recall a few people throwing in approval for it. I'd say yea to it.

What was the rule change? Can't seem to find it.

Offhand, what do you guys think of the kills list for C Ms that I made?

edited 28th Jul '17 1:13:40 PM by k410ren

Yeah I had a feeling that it would eventually come to this. I'm not really surprised that someone would have a problem with Savonarola eventually. Believing it or not when I first EP the guy I was unsure that he would qualify myself and was surprised he was up voted but I wouldn't mind if he was cut that much.

edited 28th Jul '17 1:19:32 PM by G-Editor

I repeat, I don't think AC II can have any candidates, but I read old discussion on Borgia and I realized the crimes that I listed were brought up but they were barely touched upon. The crime that discussion mostly revolved on was his sexual abuse of his daughter which admittedly is totally offscreen and should not even be considered. He was put on the Never Again list because he was brought up a lot but his actual crimes were not discussed in-depth. Plus, it was when the criteria were less flexible. I repeat, I don't think he belongs because other Templars are also nasty, just with less resources but I don't know why Savonarola of all people is listed.