During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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That's a pretty convincing argument. Switching to a no.
"No" to Mandarin and Ehtar.
Which means we have a white guy surrounded by Asian mysticism and other Orientalist tropes. That's not really better; in some ways it may be worse. As someone in one of the representation threads noted, there's a depressing tendency towards media wanting to use Asian cultural tropes without having to use those pesky Asians.
@90258 Passive aggressive snark isn't very productive.
@90259 That sounds like you're giving Ark Seijin credit for the fact that he was just more successful. Genocide was easily trying for a body count on those levels. The fact that he wasn't as successful should not be held against him.
@90264 I'm inclined to discount the stuff shown in flashback not because it's of questionable veracity, but because it's comparatively minor, all things told. Certainly, it helps establish a lack of mitigating circumstances, but that could be completely left off of a write-up and not be a problem in any way.
The stuff with Ultimo also should probably be discounted. He might not show remorse about the accident (which would probably fall under Pragmatic Villainy regardless - can't rule it if you break it), but it doesn't sound like he's particularly pleased, either. For what Ultimo does that is his direct bidding, it's again comparatively minor (we already established murder and zombification; theft is not even worth discussing for this trope).
The part about Spider-Woman and her daughter is a bit of Protagonist-Centered Morality - again, we've established a pattern of murder, necromantic arts, assassination (that whole "try to murder large chunks of the Pentagon" thing)... kidnapping and death traps are almost comically quaint.
The thing about Mandarin pulling an Enemy Mine when faced with Fin Fang Foom ought to be qualified. It wouldn't surprise me if that's merely Pragmatic Villainy (as said before, can't rule what someone else breaks), but that needs clarification.
I was going to say that we shouldn't just take the implications of shutting off technology (namely, basically killing off anyone on life support), but the fact that they specifically show MODOK in danger due to that reason (and taking MODOK to be representative of what's happening), I'll give Mandarin full credit for that one. A write-up will need to make that explicit.
Overall, the presentation is inconsistent, but I do see enough that I'm willing to say that he meets the heinous standard.
The "redeeming qualities" standard is where I think there are questions. Like I said before, the Enemy Mine situation needs clarification. I think the bit about MODOK shows a bit of inconsistency in the writing of the show, but as he generally shows no regards to MODOK beyond the latter's usefulness to his plans, I'm inclined to say that Mandarin doesn't care about him.
The bit about the fiancee is a bit trickier, but it sounds like he doesn't actually show any sort of interest in her. That said, based on some of the subsequent comics, I'll track down some videos to see if I can get a better bead on the issue.
Not the best write-up I've seen, but I'm inclined to vote keep. I'm not terribly solid on that, though.
@90269 I don't think the order with which they conducted their revenge actually matters. They may have felt "kill the ones responsible, then rebuild" was a more viable (or more respectful, or whatever) plan than the other order. Put aside for a moment whether it actually was; it's not a factor either way in evaluating them.
That said, the fact that it's a revenge plot fueled by familial love is extremely significant. It doesn't matter that it's Disproportionate Retribution in the extreme. It's still pretty clearly love. I vote no.
@90281 It's more than a little disturbing to look into just how much Marvel has run with Yellow Peril stereotypes through the years. Heck, if you want a vivid reminder of that, pick up the first Agents of Atlas trade. They do a reprint of What If? #9, and wow, it's painful to read with modern sensibilities. Even though Jimmy Woo is heroic, they still make him yellower than an anthropomorphized lemon, and all of the villainous Asian characters in that? Whoa.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.![]()
I didn't say it was a good attempt to make Mandarin more politically correct, just that was an attempt, it didn't work though. The problem is the Mandarin is the most iconic foe in Iron Man's rogues gallery, but he was a patch of work of stereotypical Asian cliches and so the writers make him into a different character each time he appears.
Likely the best Mandarin we got was the one from Armored Adventures, where they tried to make him sympathetic (and he is Asian this time).
Your criticism of my effort post is fair, but in defense the first season of Iron Man is bad and doesn't make much sense. Its a weird darker and edgier version of Challenge of the Super Friends, where Iron Man and his allies and Mandarin and his goons fight each other, I think they have all those heroes and villains in there to sell more toys. Its filled with odd voice acting, weird pop culture reference (Bill Clinton shows up a couple of times) goes from narmy to serious pretty quickly. It can be hard to summarize something this odd, the Fox Marvel cartoons were consistent in quality.
The second season is actually much better.
Looks like Mandarin is a no go, I can live with that, he's not a character I am willing to fight for.
As I said I’ve a few more candidates, all from the same setting. Let’s start with the last powerful one who also has the weakest backstory (at thus is easier to write).
Who’s the candidate?
Rhazzazor
◊, undead dragon and half of the Big Bad Duumvirate of the “Year of Fire” campaign of The Dark Eye Tabletop game.
What’s the Setting?
The Dark Eye is a popular German pen-and-paper RPG. The setting of the game is the fantasy continent Aventuria on the planet Dere. The player characters are expected to be the good guys or at least Anti-Heroes with high standards.
One notable feature of the game is that time passes in the Setting in real time. So NP Cs die and get replaced, borders change and new threat emerges. Often there are several on-going story arc. One of the biggest events in the history of the setting was the return of the evil Half-god Borbarad that results in the setting getting notably darker and the creation of several kingdoms ruled by demon worshippers.
What has Rhazzazor done?
Not much is known about the past of the dragon who would become Rhazzazor. Presumably he was born long before the first humans and severed the ruthless half god Borbarad as general. At some point in his life he made a pact with Thargunitoth, the arch demoness of the undead and eventually became an undead himself. Through the ages he was known under several names and his body was destroyed at least once. However, the soul of a dead dragon doesn’t end up in an afterlife but instead moves into his soul stone and goes into a deep slumber. Since no one every managed to destroy the soul stone the dragon’s soul survived through the ages.
About 25 years ago Borbarad returned again and obtained the dragon’s soul stone. He gave him a new skeletal body and named him Rhazzazor. When Borbarad’s army ravaged the eastern parts of the Middle Realm, largest nation on the continent, Rhazzazor served him again as general. Eventually Borabard was defeated but seven of his most powerful followers managed to claim a shard of his crown (powerful demonic artifacts each belonging to a certain arch demon) and divided the conquered lands among themselves.
Rhazzazor obtained the Thargunitoth shard, took control of a large army of undead and claimed the city of Warunk his capitol. While his necromancers and guards tyrannized the population, he himself spent most of his time in his hoard inside a golden pyramid. To prevent his undead body from decaying once a month several people would be ritually sacrificed to the dragon, who then would take a bath in their blood. This also prevented him from taking an active role during the next few years.
This changed with the above mentioned “Year of Fire” campaign. In the first module “Battle in the Clouds” he and the Demon Emperor Galotta, another one of Borbarad’s followers, formed an alliance and invaded the Middle Realm with the goal of destroying its capitol the city of Gareth. Rhazzazor participated in the battle for Gareth taking full advantage of his almost indestructible body. He gleefully made sure to murder people in ways to would cause terror and fear.
Eventually the player characters and Emer, the ruler of the Middle Realm, would face the dragon at a graveyard to prevent him from raising the death. The players managed to drive him off with a powerful relict of the god Boron (the God of Death), but he still managed to capture Emer and escape with her.
Once he arrived back in Warunk, he chained her up atop his golden pyramid, but off her eyelids and turned her into a living seal for an Eldritch Abomination imprisoned underneath the city. Said creature was so dangerous that even the dragon never dared unleashing her. He even used a part of his own strength to prevent it from escaping. By making Emer the new seal he not only could save his strength but also punish her for daring to challenge him. Emer was now constantly tormented by the creature, unable to sleep and half insane, yet unable to die.
The dragon himself would licks his wounds until his final appear can in the last part of the trilogy. In the module the player characters would discover that Thargunitoth had offer him bargain. If Rhazzazor would help her with her plan to claim thousands of innocent souls she would release him from the pact. The dragon knew that the arch demoness would sooner or later be able to claim his soul. Soul stone or not, agreed.
During and after the invasion Rhazzazor’s minions had hidden parts of a powerful magical obelisk which now slowly robed the people and the land of their life essence. He wanted to use this stored life essences to gain a new, living body while a dark ritual should ensure that all the dying people would end of in Thargunitoth’s domain.
The player characters managed to stop the ritual, thus denying Thargunitoth the souls but were unable to destroy the obelisk parts. While Thargunitoth now refused to release Rhazzazor soul, the dragon still continued with the plan hoping that the life essences of hundreds of people would give him enough strength to break his pact through sheer willpower.
To transfer the stored life essences from the obelisk into himself, however, he needed a royal sword that had tasted royal blood. This happened, ironically, during another battle at the gates of Gareth when Emer’s daughter fought against a rival who claimed the throne for himself. As soon as the royal blood was spilled Rhazzazor appeared and the life essences was transferred into his body. His plan succeed and he was able to break his pact. Yet the obelisk continued to transfer life energy out of the people into the dragon. At an even faster rate than before.
Eventually one of the player characters managed to reach Rhazzazor, and use the Boron relict again. This time the relict had enough strength to not only hurt but outright destroy Rhazzazor’s body for good. It was then decided to not destroy his soul stone to deny Thargunitoth another chance to gain his powerful soul and the gem was instead looked away in a well-protected keep.
This was the last time he appeared in a module, but only time will tell if another writer will bring him back some day.
Militating Factors?
He’s an evil selfish dragon who only cares about preserving his existence and terrorizing people.
Being a dragon is no excuse. While most dragons consider themselves to be superior to other races and don’t see a problem in eating them they aren’t evil or malicious. A few are even friendly towards human.
People who make a pact with an arch demon end up in the Netherhells after dead, where their souls are being tortured for a very long time until they are turned into demons themselves. Rhazzazor wanting to avoid this fate is understandable. Him being willing to commode thousands of innocent souls to this fate to save his hide is not.
The only truly militating factor is that a demon pact slowly corrupts a soul. The stronger the pact become the more twisted a person becomes until he or she is just an extension of the arch demons will. There are exceptions to this rule, however. Rhazzazor seems to be such an expectation, since he still wanted to break the pact after several centuries.
Heinous Standards?
Rhazzazor is an evil bastard, who made a pact with the enemies of creation and directly or indirectly murdered hundreds of people. Yet he’s not the only one. Borbarad’s appearance brought the heinous standards to a whole new level and all his followers who claimed a shard for themselves have done similar things.
Yet Rhazzazor still outmatches most of them in heinousness. Only his temporary ally Galotta could surpass him, but what prevents me from suggestion him is that there’s an (unfinished) novel series about his life. I haven’t read them myself but from what I’ve heard he’s portrayed as a tragic character who even had people he cared about. Rhazzazor, on the other hand, cared only about Rhazzazor which Is why he comes across as worse.
My Verdict
Thought the competition was pretty strong.
edited 20th Jul '17 9:12:55 AM by NTG
I rewatched that Ironman episode to refresh my memory, and it does seem a little weak. His actions in the flashbacks and his narration makes me lean to the Mandarin's "love" not being genuine. He valued her, yes, but I dunno about love. I'm gonna be contrary and say
.
Just got back from War for the Planet of the Apes.
No apes threw any barrels like Donkey Kong.
2/10.
PM me if you wanna chat.
About the Master, I noticed that the first entry of his on the CM page conflates the Roger Delgado version with the decayed Peter Pratt/Geoffery Beevers incarnation, treating them as the same incarnation. Except, aren't they different? The character profile here states as such. Overall it comes off as a sort of "fourteenth incarnation", And a good reason why regenerations have a 13 limit.
As such, shouldn't his acts as Delgado and the living corpse be seperated into different profiles? I feel the profile for this incarnation/s should be renovated since compared to the others it doesn't give much detail on why he's one of the most evil characters in the series
What do you guys think is the most anti-social CM? I'd say Rorge, since I don't think he's said a single thing that isn't a threat, insult or in most cases both
'Yes' to Rhazazzor.
Was gonna upvote the Mandarin, but the point about his wife IS pretty ambiguous, so I'll say 'No' for now.
Oh, and yet another Marvel Comics villain is back. Everyone's favorite assassin Bullseye.
Basically, he gets healed from his paralysis because plot, and now has his own 5 issue miniseries.
In said miniseries?
Bullseye continues his Psycho for Hire schtick, with the opening scene showing him slaughtering a bank and several government agents.
While chatting with a potential employer, Bullseye hangs out the window of the building and flings paper clips at random people on the street. By the time he's done? Close to two dozen people are dead from paper clips being stabbed into their necks, or by car crashes from the chaos Bullseye causes.
Bullseye is then hired by a gang lord to rescue his son from a psychopathic crime lord named Teodor (Who would probably count himself if Bullseye wasn't so AWFUL) . The gang boss tells Bullseye to rescue his son with minimal attention drawn to him.
Bullseye promptly arrives in Teodor's city, and goes on a horrific massacre of dozens of people, stapling pictures stating "Bullseye is coming for you, Teodor" to their faces as he goes.
Once finally confronting Teodor, slaughtering several of his men and other innocents in the process, Bullssye is captured and tortured by Teodor.
Bullseye realizes that the son he was hired to rescue, Fabian, is willingly helping Teodor, hoping to eventually kill his own father and take over his gangs.
At this point, Bullseye is confronted by government agent Joy, the wife of one of the agents Bullseye killed in his bank massacre.
Bullseye doesn't even remember said massacre, constantly mistating Joy's husband's name, and giving a great example of But for Me, It Was Tuesday.
Bullseye escapes, slaughters some more people, and manages to capture Fabian and bring him back to his father.
Once paid, Bullseye informs Fabian's father of Fabian's plans to kill him.....then proclaims he'll do it for him, and betrays the old gangboss and executes him.
Fabian, in horror, states he didn't REALLY want this and that he doesn't know what to do. Bullseye giddily proclaims that's true, and that Fabian will likely be dead from warring gang bosses within a week. We then get THIS dialogue that definitely deserves a place pn the quote page:
Overall? Methinks Bullseye needs an updated entry. He commits more mass murder here than he has in nearly any other of his stories, and most are for nothing but amusement. Especially the "Paper clip sniping from a skyscraper" that ends with dozens dead, which he treats as nothing but twiddling his fingers to relieve boredom.
Thoughts?
edited 20th Jul '17 12:27:05 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!And a yes to updated Bullseye (yeesh
). We can probably give him his own entry like we did Purple Man, Ultron, and Strucker.
BTW, didn't you say you were gonna expand Carnage's and Barracuda's entries?
edited 20th Jul '17 12:27:11 PM by ACW
@90283 You know, for all that I can think of a lot of "Iron Man vs. Mandarin" comics, I don't really have all that great of a grasp of anything in particular that the Mandarin does. For all that he's perhaps the most visible, I think Justin Hammer has a better claim for being more iconic, to be honest. That said, that debate is completely off the point of the thread, so I probably should continue that line of thought elsewhere.
@90284 There's several typos in that, but I think I have the gist of it.
Honestly, even not knowing much about the setting, it honestly sounds like the heinous standard is pretty high (particularly noting how often he forms alliances with strong suggestions that he's not particularly outre in his behavior in them), and that Rhazzazor might have equals that may overshadow him. If there's more about the setting that can clearly establish that he's a cut above, I reserve the right to change my mind. But based on what's described, I'm inclined to say no.
@90290 What's the point in revisiting? The current entry already accurately depicts him as a CM, and it sounds like he doesn't do anything to change that status. We don't need to gild the lily and update entries with a "oh, and look what else he did!" Is he still an evil SOB? If yes, then we really don't need to do anything.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Bullseye has already killed dozens. That's canon. He did it purely for joy - that's canon too (it was even mentioned in Deadpool that he doesn't even care about the money he gets from his jobs). Is there really any point to throwing a number on there just to uptick it every time he shows off that yep, he's still Bullseye?
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.BTW, if we don't get too many more, I may just combine this week's batch with next week's. I think we only have like 9 or so writeups so far this week.
