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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90252: Jul 19th 2017 at 11:59:54 AM

[up][up] After Machison dies, they confront Blackhurst and he's killed in the fight.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#90253: Jul 19th 2017 at 12:29:36 PM

Okay, I think my computer issues are relatively resolved, so first things first...

@90247 Particularly as it isn't clear just how involved the crown prince is in all this, I do learn closer to voting "keep"... that said, the fact that it's a series has me thinking that we probably should discuss villains from later in the series (especially if said crown prince becomes more active) before voting definitively.

As for Apocalypse... I'm running into a minor problem, and it's going to be a major determinant for my recommendation. Even going beyond most of the Depending on the Writer issues that will probably result in there being a qualifier for his entry should he otherwise pass muster, I'm seeing indications that Apocalypse actually cares for his family members (most specifically, Chamber/Decibel, one of the X-Men). That said, I'm having problems tracking down any scenes indicating one way or the other. Anyone know where I might be able to look up and get a definitive answer?

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#90254: Jul 19th 2017 at 12:36:56 PM

Well, if that IS an issue, we've still got Age of Apocalypse (different continuity I believe), as well as animated, video game, and the film versions. Hell, even the quote at the X-Men CM page could remain.

[down][down] Yup, definitely reminds me of Wolfram.

edited 19th Jul '17 12:54:39 PM by ACW

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#90255: Jul 19th 2017 at 12:37:51 PM

[tup] Machison and Super Life-form Genocide, which might be my favourite name to come through the thread.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90256: Jul 19th 2017 at 12:51:44 PM

Oh, I should note that Machison's boss, Crown Prince Arivel does appear, but it's made firmly clear that Machison has full autonomy and enjoys torture/rape/murder on his own time.

If anything changes with the next book, I'll be updating the thread in due course

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#90257: Jul 19th 2017 at 1:00:09 PM

@90255 With that in mind, I favor voting to table the vote until we get a clearer picture from subsequent stories. I worry that this example could get overshadowed with subsequent additions to the series.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90258: Jul 19th 2017 at 1:22:56 PM

If that happens, we can always remove him then.

Any other votes?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#90259: Jul 19th 2017 at 1:30:23 PM

[up][up]Funny how this year we got a TV villain and two movie villains who count whose arcs are not yet closed as well.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#90260: Jul 19th 2017 at 1:32:06 PM

'Yes' to Machison. Nasty prick, and there's no problem putting him up now.

Ark Seijin still counts, for what it's worth. He has the culminated highest bodycount in the story, that being 2 billion, and plus his attempted freezing of Earth, that would have been a handy 7-8 billion bodycount if he succeeded. Genocide doesn't have Ark's bodycount, but he makes up for it with his exceptionally twisted M.O., so they both count.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#90261: Jul 19th 2017 at 1:35:51 PM

EP tonight (I've held it off long enough) and maybe three more coming in the near future. That'll be in addition to any others that may count in the ones I've reserved.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#90262: Jul 19th 2017 at 3:28:52 PM

[tup] to Carter and Flack, Genocide (Its on the nose, but lets be honest, its probably the only crime you could name a villain, and still say with a mostly straight face) and Ellor Machison

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#90263: Jul 19th 2017 at 3:31:17 PM

So, my complete copy of Carnage in New York arrived today. Nothing really to add, aside from him killing 20 or so more people.

Though, the book DOES obliquely mention the prequel to Operation A.I.M. Not that either Carnage nor Modok 1.5 is disqualified (different resources and such), but an interesting note. I added it as a label note.

I think I've exhausted all Marvel novel candidates from the books I have, but I'll glance through the other novels to make sure.

edited 19th Jul '17 4:27:17 PM by ACW

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#90264: Jul 19th 2017 at 4:29:04 PM

[tup] Ellor Machison.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#90265: Jul 19th 2017 at 5:22:53 PM

[tup] To Genocide, Silver Sun, Eileen and Machison.

[tdown] To phantom killer.

As for groups, there is a huge difference between a large faceless organization and a small criminal conspiracy, we have been allowing more then villain in a single write up when approved the twins from Breaking Bad and the slavers from Punisher. I don't see why we count count two or three villains who conspire to act together.

Anyway I have another 90s Marvel cartoon villain to propose and this one is reoccurring, so he will have a fairly long rap sheet:

Who is the Mandarin? What has he done?

The Mandarin in this cartoon gives his origin in a video diary, which may or may not be true, since it is booby trapped, but maybe we should just go with it:

This Mandarin starts off as Arnold Brock, an arrogant American archaeologist at a dig in Central Asia, with his fiance and a group of guides. When bandits threaten to attack, the guides offer to fight the bandits, so Brock and his fiance could escape on camel, however Brock decides his fiance would slow down the camel and instead leaves her to die. While escaping Brock falls into a cave and discovers 10 alien gems of power, that transform his body (he now has green skin). Brock is curicious as to whether his fiance survived and flies to the surface. Brock only finds a ransacked camp ground and empty bands of his fiance's rings, deciding to is a final gift from her, he puts the gems in the bands and takes the name the Mandarin and begins his schemes to conquer the world.

He acquires a palace in the Himalayas and several super powered lackeys, he also forms an alliance with corrupt business man Justin Hammer.

Hammer rearranges an accident for Tony Stark at his lab and then has him brought to the Mandarin, who wants him to build a suit armor, so he can take over the world. Mandarin treats Stark like a slave and when he doesn't get the results he wants, has another captured scientist, Yin Sen, help him.

Still unhappy with their lack of progress, Mandarin threatens to Yin Sen and Stark have tortured if they do not show more progress.

Anyway Stark and Yin sen manage to build the armor in secret, Mandarin kills Yen Sen while Iron Man escapes.

Enough with the flashbacks and on to what he does in the regular series.

In the first episode, he has his goons sink a Russian sub, but not before planting a virus on board that will transform the sailors into mutant zombies. A year later the zombies emerge and begint o attack people, with Mandarin hoping they will inflect others and give him an army of zombie slaves. Iron man and his allies in Force Works foil the Mandarin's scheme.

Then Mandarin has Hammer uncover an ancient doomsday weapon named Ultimo and activates it, gaining control over it. Now Mandarin just uses Ultimio for generic villain stuff like raiding a Stark factory for resources, but while fighting it, Iron man accidentally frees Ultimio from the Mandarin's control, which leads to Ultimtio trying to absorb the Earth's core. Now Mandarin did not mean for that to happen, but he never shows remorse or takes responsibility for his actions in this episode.

There also an episode where he takes over some satiles to hack into defense and finical systems in order cause chaos across the globe.

In the next episode, he kidnaps Spider-Woman's teenage daughter and places her in a warehouse full of death traps designed to lure Iron Man to his doom, intending to kill the both of them. He also has a virus put into Stark's computer systems so that a new type of robot tank Stark is building for the government, while eventually go rogue and attack the facilities they are supposed to defended (we see a tank blow up several buildings on a base).

Next episode Mandarin steals a experimental jet from Stark, so he can blow up the White House and the Pentagon.

There more then a couple of generic villainy epsiodes where Mandarin doesn't do anything too heinious, so I will skip those, because they are not important

There is one episode where Mandarin's goons take over a remote beach to ambush Stark's force and steal some other tech from him (notice a pattern). The goons take some civilians on the beach, including Modok's ex wife, hostage. Modok is Mandarin's chief scientist in this series and he knows Mandarin has no regards for human life, so he helps Iron Man defeat the Mandarin in this case.

The big thing Mandarin does in season 1, is make an Iron Man duplicate, have his forces enslave a village in Peru and force them to spread a fungus on their corn crops that will resurrect a cured disease called Dark Water Fever (the fake Iron Man stole the cure for it) and the fake Iron Man demonstrates the disease by spraying it on a park and those people in the park are likely dead since we see their bodies decay and we never see them again. The fake Iron Man demands a ransom, but Mandarin plans to spread the virus no matter what, because the death and chaos it will cause will allow him to take over the world easier.

Anyway some more generic villainy episodes, but there is a key scene where Mandarin's goons are looking for Iron Man near his palace and Blizzard attacks a monstory, Mandarin likes the idea and orders all his forces to attack near by communities till Iron Man is found.

Anyway that's everything of note in season 1.

In season 2, Mandarin is taken out rather quickly, helping Fin Fan Foom free his dragon brothers, the dragons betray Mandarin and try to take over the world, Mandarin and Iron Man team up to defeat the dragons, Mandarin seems to have died and his rings are scattered across the globe.

However the Mandarin is not dead, he is just injured, he recovers and collects his rings, often by force.

In the season 2 finale, he has his rings back and begins a new scheme, he acquires a alien gem called the Heart of Darkness,that will deactivate technology, stating that technology has become a corrupting influence on the world, so Mandarin will get rid of all technology and in exchange the governments of the world will have to give power to him, of course the governments reject this and Mandarin shuts off all the technology in NYC, causing chaos.

Later Mandarin orders his goons to attack Hong Kong and destroy it, in order to lure Force Works to his palace. Mandarin captures Force Works and hooks them up to the Heart of Darkness, increasing its power and causing them pain in the process. Modok is also dying due to life support systems being swtched off, Mandarin also decides to hook up his goons to the Heart of Darkness, to further increase its power.

Anyway Iron Man finds a way to defend his army against the Heart, battles the Mandarin (the Mandarin is hypocrite who attacks in his own suit of armor), saves his friends and Mandarin is blown out of his own palace and killed by bandits, the end.

Is he heinious by the standards of work?

This is the 90s cartoon continuity (though its hard to reconcile the Scarlet Witch who appears in this series with the one who appears in the X-Men cartoons), so the compeition is stiff, with the likes of animation Apocalypse and Carnage in the running.

However as you can see, that is a fairly long rap sheet, filled attempts at mass murder and petty acts of cruelty. Sure in some episodes he was engaging in generic villainy, but I think he did enough vile stuff to count, even in this cartoon where a villain wiped all life on an alien planet, I think the Mandarin can count, because that villain way more destructive tech then Mandarin.

Guys like the Leader and Red Skull are far more generic conquerors then Mandarin in this cartoon.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

This where things get tricky.

After his leaving his fiance to die, Mandarin was curious if she was alive and looked for her. He found her ring bans and put his gems into them, declaring them a final gift from her after he decided to take over the world. I think seems creepy and egotistically rather then romantic and I don't think he loved her.

In the last two episodes, there is a brief scene where Modok is dying due to his life support being shut off and the Mandarin kinda has a regretful look on his face while declaring his sacrifice is necessary to achieve his goals. However through out the series, the Mandarin has been abusive to Modok and had no regards for his life in the past (ordering him to pilot that experimental plane that could have been bobby trapped) and after that brief scene, the Mandarin goes right back to abusing him through out final two episodes and in a later scene when Modok again pleads for his life, the Mandarin just gives him an annoyed look and ignores him, so I am not sure if that negates his previous look.

Besides that, nothing, Mandarin almost kills Blizzard for accidentally destroying some of his flowers and is a Bad Boss through out the series.

He pretends to be a WIE for 3 seconds when he talks about making the world better by getting rid of technology, but quickly drops that act and is usual megalomaniacal self.

Final Verdict?

He may count, but I am not sure.

edited 19th Jul '17 6:12:19 PM by Overlord

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#90266: Jul 19th 2017 at 5:25:40 PM

I remember when Iron Man 3 came out and some people voiced concern over voting for a character that has many negative Asian stereotypes. I hope everyone can look past that and simply vote on the character like they would any other.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#90267: Jul 19th 2017 at 5:29:51 PM

[up] They actually tried to make Mandarin more politically correct in this cartoon, by making him an white American who got turned green by magic gems and just took the name the Mandarin.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#90270: Jul 19th 2017 at 6:50:26 PM

Congrats to all the Choice Movie Villain nominees this year, especially Charlize Theron and Elizabeth Banks for their work as Cipher and Rita respectively. Here’s my EP at long last:

What is the work?

Young Sherlock Holmes is a 1985 standalone movie (though I personally like to think it’s a prequel to the Guy Ritchie movies), which prides itself on the idea of having Sherlock Holmes and John Watson first meet at a prestigious boarding school. However, an Ancient Egyptian death cult is targeting and killing seemingly at random and Holmes coaxes Watson into helping him solve the case when the deaths are ruled as either accidental or suicide and Holmes knows better because their personalities do not match their supposed demises.

Who are they and what have they done?

Ehtar and his unnamed sister are worshippers of the Rametep, the radical and extreme cult that worships the death god Osiris. As children, six scholars come to their village and unwittingly unearth the temple, resulting in an uprising that desecrates it, burns the village down and causes the death of their parents. Ehtar sends a letter to each of them vowing revenge and stating his desire to rebuild and restore the temple as well. For years, he and his sister form new identities (Rathe and Mrs. Dribb) and become employed at the school as the fencing instructor and the nurse respectively. Holmes looks up to and sees Rathe as a mentor of sorts.

As the movie opens, Dribb tracks down one of the scholars named Bobster and shoots him with a hallucinogen made from a special thorn that causes him to see very realistic and horrifying imagery based on his environment. He eventually believes the room at his house has caught on fire and trying to escape, jumps out the window to his death. It’s later revealed Dribb took out two of the other five scholars offscreen and she also takes out another, Reverend Nesbitt the same way. He also hallucinates and in a panic, runs out into the street where he’s mowed down by a carriage. Another target is Rupert Waxflatter, the school’s former headmaster and another mentor of Holmes. He’s shot with the hallucinogen and thinking he’s being attacked by a small dragon in his coat, stabs himself fatally. As part of the plan to rebuild the temple (which contained five mummified princesses), Rathe and Dribb hypnotize and abduct four innocent girls, wrap them in mummy bondage and kill them in a ritual in which hot oil is dumped on them. When Holmes, Watson and Elizabeth Hardy (Waxflatter’s niece and Holmes’ girlfriend) discover the temple, they are each given the hallucinogen and nearly killed as a result. When Holmes provides the thorns used to be tested to a doubtful Lestrade, he is pricked with one while smacking them off his desk and nearly hangs himself as a result.

The last of the six scholars, Chester Cragwitch is also infected with the thorn and nearly kills Holmes in his panic too. Rathe and Dribb hypnotize and abduct Elizabeth with the intention of using her as the fifth and final sacrifice. Holmes and Watson disrupt the ceremony and while Ehtar is knocked out, Dribb attempts to shoot the thorn at Watson and Elizabeth, but Holmes intervenes, uses the blowpipe to shoot the thorn into Dribb’s mouth and in her crazed panic, she ends up set on fire and burns to death. Ehtar abducts Elizabeth again as the temple is destroyed and attempts to escape with her, but thanks to a set up by Watson, an unconscious Holmes is rescued from the fire in the temple and Ehtar’s getaway carriage is disabled.

The three think Ehtar escaped, but he comes back to try to shoot Holmes, only for Elizabeth to jump in between them, take the bullet and later die as a result. Enraged, Holmes takes on Ehtar in a sword fight, which results in the two brawling and fighting on cracking ice. Ehtar taunts Holmes about Elizabeth dying and then when trying to strike at him with the oar he’s holding, falls into the water and apparently drowns. An end credits stinger reveals that Ehtar survived as he checks into an inn under the name…you guessed it…“Moriarty”.

Heinous standard?

Since the movie is not meant to be in continuity with anything else, they are the ones who set it. They kill five men in an emotionally disturbing manner and then boil four innocent girls alive without remorse or regret. While Elizabeth was not Ehtar’s intended target, she’s still killed in a Heroic Sacrifice as a result of his murderous rage against Holmes. While two of the men who die and three of the girls who die are not shown onscreen, a pattern of killing is established with each that bring what happens to them to mind and makes it more apparent to the audience that it happened.

Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?

Yes, Lestrade is an Asshole Victim and takes credit for all of Holmes' work on the case to become Inspector, but he didn't completely deserve what happened to him. Could have easily been someone else. While the You Killed My Father aspect would seem to hold water in whether or not they count, it is the fact that rather than kill them all right away to get their revenge, they held it off for years because they were more interested in rebuilding the temple and making the killings more personal. The six men never intended such a thing to happen, but Ehtar and Dribb do not care. The fact that they were impressionable kids could maybe hold water, but as they grew to maturity, still held that grudge regardless. They single-mindedly refused to see things any other way. Their relationship with their parents is barely addressed (you get a brief glimpse of the letter Ehtar sent, which again has more emphasis on Rametep) and the fact that their parents were probably worshippers of Rametep who instilled that radicalism in them only further indicts them as fanatics more interested in death than anything else (think Blackwood’s conception and upbringing not exactly being the crux for his evil). They’ve taken that to an extreme in justifying their actions when they simply just use it as another excuse to continue their designs on their cult’s extreme and bloodthirsty ways. It’s not a cause by itself, but another piece of their cause in Rametep’s resurgence. Their followers matter not to them (they are made up of desperate, poor and homeless individuals), any connections they make using their aliases are meaningless (and that includes Holmes in how quickly Rathe turns on him when he disrupts the ceremony) and most importantly, they do not care for each other. Any interactions we see between them is only about Rametep or just a means of maintaining their covers. When Ehtar nearly dies after being knocked out, Dribb does not go to save him or find out if he’s okay and when she is killed, Ehtar chooses to run instead and takes Elizabeth out of spite and so he has a hostage.

Verdict?

I lean towards [tup], but again, I’m open to discussion.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:02:05 PM by futuremoviewriter

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#90271: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:00:45 PM

Leaning [tup] to Mandarian and Ehtar.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#90272: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:55:11 PM

Yeah, with duos and the rare trios, it's far from impossible for them to qualify so long as each is their own measurable character.

Yes to Machinson and Genocide. No on Ehtar and his sister... I think their excuse holds up a lot better than you make it out to be. As for Mandarin... yeah, he's got the deeds and that bit with Modok completely falls apart but that bit with his wife is making me wary. Not going to say no off the bat if there's reasonable doubt, but I'd like to hear a bit more on that.

Any more votes on Silver? The yeas are in the majority but I have gotten a few nays, and I would like to see everyone's stance on her as she's quite a bit more unique for me than the usual and I can see where some would be skeptical.

edited 19th Jul '17 8:26:26 PM by Scraggle

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#90273: Jul 19th 2017 at 8:24:17 PM

[up] Ohhhh, Silver Sun. I remember you bringing her up a while ago; thought her name seemed familiar. Definite [tup] for her.

I'm leaning towards [tdown] for both Ehtar and Mandarin.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#90274: Jul 19th 2017 at 9:06:21 PM

In regards to the Mandarin, he did leave his wife to die for very selfish reasons. But if he never cared for his wife, why would he go back to the camp to look for her after gaining cosmic powers? It's true that he never mentions her after the flashback and doesn't seem too saddened over her death, but he still incorporated her rings to power his gems; so there must be some sort of emotional connection still there. Plus, he briefly laments how "the same fate that fulfilled my dream, had cast [her] to the winds". I'll give a [tdown] .

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#90275: Jul 19th 2017 at 9:11:41 PM

[up] In this case, I'm going to say "no" to the Mandarin.

edited 19th Jul '17 9:12:13 PM by Scraggle


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