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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89151: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:10:12 PM

[up] I also feel that important factor is how much they care about members of their own race vs. just hating the other counts towards whether their beliefs are mitigating.

If a racist villain loves his family or thinks his race has been oppressed and promotes extreme measures for the good of his people, I will cut that villain some slack, they do not count.

If a villain is just a racist who hates others because he thinks they are inferior and commits genocide because of it, that villain is more likely to count, such a villain enjoying the company of members of his own race is not enough to save him from being a monster.

Magneto is somewhat bigoted sometimes, but he cares more about his fellow mutants, then Stryker ever did with his fellow humans.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:11:54 PM by Overlord

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#89152: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:21:22 PM

Being added to the Never-Again list in either direction means that the character has been either nominated or disputed numerous times, always ending with the same conclusion.

By its very nature, the entries on it are going to be from works that have been around for quite a while — there has to have been enough time passed since the character went public for it to have been brought up more than a few times... I'd be surprised to see anything from a work much newer than two years old. Turbo from Wreck-it Ralph appears to be the latest entry, and that's at 4 years. Feels about right.

ThePest179 Since: Jul, 2015
#89153: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:24:13 PM

89126: I couldn't disagree more; if you're killing people out of racism, it indicates that you have some kind of standards, if you're killing for no reason, then you have no standards. IMO, as horrific and awful as, say, Amon Goethe was, he still isn't Freddy Kruger.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:25:43 PM by ThePest179

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#89154: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:25:10 PM

@89145 On Shuran... alright, I'm convinced. I think the previous write-ups got a bit too wordy, and some of that was lost in how expansive things got. But as you know, I'm very much a "cut to the chase" guy with these things.

For Tork... eh, he's not the only Imperial throwing away his men needlessly. I'm still inclined to say no to him.

For the Never Again list... well, kinda nice that repeat arguments have died down considerably. Though I honestly would hold off on Dr. Maru, on the basis that I could see a sequel (maybe during WW2 or the Cold War) where she comes back and goes straight over the line. However, based solely on the first Wonder Woman, I'm good with a "no."

@89147 I mean, with Empowered being an ongoing like it is, I have to imagine that we're not going to be able to rule on most candidates for a while. Well, except Willy Pete, of course, unless we get a real curveball thrown at us on him (which, given the work, I don't put it past anyone).

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89155: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:30:46 PM

[up][up] I don't think its a moral standard that is mitigating though.

I think William Stryker is just as bad as Bullseye, even though Bullseye kills out of sadisn and Stryker kills out of bigotry.

Stryker tried to kill his own assistant when he discovered she was mutant and killed his wife and child for similar reasons, doesn't love humans as individuals and will kill if they no longer fit his ideal human. Screw that guy.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:31:28 PM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89156: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:31:22 PM

I just hope Willy Pete is cleared up; he was described by Mind**** as "an artificial personality, possessing a kludge mind assembled from a jumble of neurological hacks and persona fragments."

I also hope Ninjette's father returns.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89157: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:33:35 PM

Oh, for Tork, my point there was largely just to show his racism doesn't mean he has any great love of humans. I think his status as a CM is, personally, cemented by his turning the Azgoghk into what amounts to a portable concentration camp and continuing that long after Palpatine is dead. Compared to other imperials, a single captain managing to commit genocide on multiple species with such personal a touch as randomly deciding to shoot entire transports of them dead personally strikes me as somewhat unique.

Regarding Empowered....Willy Pete is touched on briefly, but only to note he's still at large. That said, a previous volume has raised intriguing questions as to what he actually is...we'll have to wait and see, though. The Kludge Mind thing can easily be some sort of defense raised against telepaths like Mindfuck, or his status as a fire elemental could be a 'vehicle' for the actual pilot inside. Volume 11 is actually due out later this year from what Adam Warren said.'Jette's father is absolutely guaranteed to show back up in future volumes...it seems Mindfuck's brother will be the main villain of that one, and I doubt he'll count as he seems to have a twisted love for his sister to the point where he thought having her stab her eyes out and cut out her tongue was doing her a favor.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:38:08 PM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89158: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:46:26 PM

Later this year? Huh, his twitter said 2018.

Anyway. glad Willy Pete's still around.

ThePest179 Since: Jul, 2015
#89159: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:46:44 PM

[up][up][up][up] It's definitely not mitigating, but I personally see someone who kills solely out of sadism to be worse than someone killing out of bigotry.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:47:00 PM by ThePest179

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#89160: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:48:02 PM

[up] And I am the exact opposite; for me things like greed and bigotry are worse from sadism but I respect your opinion.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#89161: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:55:57 PM

@89156 Maybe we'll see enough of 'Jette's father that I'd feel more comfortable giving an opinion on him, but he really hasn't made enough appearances directly to make me feel confident either way. As for Willy Pete... guess I'm a little behind, because I didn't know that Warren actually started laying down the groundwork for the kind of thing that would get Willy Pete DQ'ed (and, interestingly, exactly the same groundwork I was mentally envisioning when I previously posted). Still, I guess it depends on what's yet to come.

@89157 I thought it was pretty established that Willy Pete was still at large and around.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#89162: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:00:47 PM

Alright, catching up... yes to the Queen (welcome back, Atlantis!) and yes to Lighty's Criminal example. Switching to a nay on Alistair to finalize that and I'm nowhere near well-versed enough in Dark Souls mythology to make a concrete vote on Sulyvahn.

edited 6th Jul '17 1:01:25 PM by Scraggle

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89163: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:02:04 PM

I'm gonna vote to keep Sulyvahn based on my own observations of the last DLC and Lightsnake's arguments.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#89164: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:05:36 PM

Oh, and I'm quite against any new additions to the Never Again list... the examples brought up there haven't been discussed to the point where they necessitate a spot there.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#89165: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:06:33 PM

A while ago we talked about The Wonderful 101, developed by Platinum Games, best developer of the decade.

While no one seems to count - I have not played the game - we should remember it was created as a loving spoof on popular tokusatsu, specifically stuff like Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Metal Hero and, of course, Ultraman, which all have at least one example of a CM. I'm saying there is a possibility for a true Knight of Cerebus to appear in such a story, even if it is pretty goofy.

While no one counts in the game's spiritual predecessor, Viewtiful Joe, I have a similar opinion there. There are a few moments where the story gets serious, and I wonder if the 3rd game ever got made if we would have a candidate.

If The Wonderful 102 does get announced, I ask us all not to dismiss its chances out of hand. Platinum Games have produced more than a couple approved candidates for its time.

TL;DR Don't dismiss silly games when it comes to this thread. Most know this, but consider this a reminder.

EDIT: [down] This is also true.

edited 6th Jul '17 2:00:42 PM by PolarPhantom

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#89166: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:14:51 PM

RE: Racism

It's neither an automatic qualifier or disqualifier. It's simply one of the many forms of ideological, in-group/out-group thinking that tends to crop up amongst contenders for the list. We've had racists, Nazis, Communists, religious fanatics of all stripes, more than one anarcholibertarian...the list goes on. What matters with characters like this are the same things that matter for any other character we discuss—whether they hit all the qualifiers for inclusion.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89167: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:27:58 PM

[up] I don't disagree with that.

It just seemed to me that what Footsteps was suggesting (maybe I am misreading him) is that villains who are motivated by racism, ideology or fanaticism should not be judged the same as villains who are motivated by greed or sadism.

That is what I oppose, having different sets of standards for different types of villains.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#89168: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:30:40 PM

Yes, that is a total misread of what I said. I also think that this is going way off the track for the purposes of this thread, which is why I haven't addressed the issue any further.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#89169: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:38:31 PM

[tup] Heimdahl and the Crimson Queen

I plan to watch this 2013 Korean gangster film called New World tonight. I'll report back on if anybody counts.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#89170: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:38:42 PM

[tup] Heimdahl.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89171: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:45:45 PM

[up][up][up] Fair enough, I apologize for misreading your intent.

But I do think this was a relevant discussion.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#89172: Jul 6th 2017 at 2:01:57 PM

[up] Me too. Understanding how we judge villains is important and should be discussed often, lest we become complacent.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#89173: Jul 6th 2017 at 2:06:33 PM

[tup] to Preed, the Crimson Queen, and Xavier Heimdahl.

So what was the consensus on cutting Will Strausser?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#89174: Jul 6th 2017 at 2:22:24 PM

[tup] to Preed Heimdahl And the queen

Yeah and definitely keep Sullivan

Speaking of what should go on the Never Again Page I nominate the Douche so that We won't ever have to turn down another EP about him.

edited 6th Jul '17 2:24:31 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#89175: Jul 6th 2017 at 2:45:17 PM

[up][up] I'm fine with cutting him. But we probably need some more people to comment before we do anything.

[up] I don't think we need to make any additions to the Never Again list. Unless he gets proposed again, we really don't need to put him on the Never Again list. It is for persistent problems, Douche only came up a couple times and no one is crusading to put him up.

edited 6th Jul '17 2:48:08 PM by TommyFresh


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