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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#88651: Jul 2nd 2017 at 2:49:11 AM

[tup] To Tork and Murthe.

As for Angel Eyes. He and Wallace do perform many beatings in the camps which the Warden takes issue with and they've become infamous for among the prisoners. I never liked with the idea that showing only one is enough to let a mass endightment of those crimes pass (be it torture and serial killing), because I feel it edges on Offstage Villainy. Much like with an offstage action, the audience doesn't "Feel" the weight of this crime as a multiple thing, but rather as just an incident.

That said I'm not going to debate the validity of that because as much as I dislike it, it makes a lot of sense. The single example is meant to be a microcosm of the whole of the crime, and even from a narrative POV it can get repetitive to just keep depicting multiple victims all to establish "this character is the bad". If we know they're a serial killer, we only need to see one death to qualify them as such.

So nobody type up a rebuttal to this, I'm just expressing a thought on policy but I agree with the reasoning as to why this is needed.

That said, I guess it now depends on where the heinous standard is. If we're talking the dollars trilogy as a whole I don't think he counts. His position at the camp gives him more resources (a gang of minions) and he's got three deaths and mass beatings against Indio and Ramon who're both responsible for mass killings and rapes. In the confines of the film itself, I can kind of see him counting, he is the worst person and kills the largest amount of sympathetic characters and his camp actions manage to give him a lot of victims, which is key to his case. I'm fairly sure we'll end up judging him on the latter rather than the former though and while I see that as a major example of Kick the Dog I can't quite say CM, but I can fully understand why he was kept as an example.

edited 2nd Jul '17 2:54:12 AM by DrPsyche

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#88652: Jul 2nd 2017 at 4:51:35 AM

[tup] to Adolican Rhand, Johanna Ratka, Mir Tork and Loanis Murthe.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#88653: Jul 2nd 2017 at 5:15:10 AM

Yes to Tork, Murthe, and Kurokowa... I'm quite opposed to cutting Angel Eyes.

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#88654: Jul 2nd 2017 at 5:27:39 AM

[tup] to Rhand, Ratka. Abstain Angel Eyes.

I will do the writeups for the Bomberman candidates soon, including Sthertoth since nobody seems to really care about him, but in the meantime I found even more possible candidates. I'll wait until opinions on these guys is known and I'll do the E Ps in a batch. Two from Bomberman 64, Sirius and Altair. Starting with Altair as their plots intertwine but he's easier to explain.

Who is Altair and what does he do?

Seemingly the Big Bad of Bomberman 64. Before the events of the game, he and his subordinates/minions (who he seems to not be bothered about but they care about him, so none of them count) hatch a plan: steal the Omni Cube, a MacGuffin belonging to Sirius, and use it to gain power.

Even with his subordinates' help, Altair struggles with defeating Sirius, but he succeeds and takes the Omni Cube for himself. The cube is powerful enough to trap and contain galaxies inside it, somehow, and Altair uses this so he can act as a god to the people in the cube, to make himself more powerful, and trap more galaxies in it, several in fact. Basically a Fate Worse than Death.

Doing this flies pass the baseline standard. Considering you can trap entire GALAXIES in there, and he did that to several on his own, his number of people he's trapped in a Fate Worse than Death is enourmous.

Altair, however, is not fully knowledgeable on how to use the cube properly. He traps several, but never uses it quickly. This brings us to the other bad guy, Sirius. who is far more interesting.

Who is Sirius and what does he do?

Initially appearing as an ally to Bomberman, Sirius was the original owner of the Cube before it was stolen. Sirius goes to Bomberman as without the cube, he's weak as shit, meaning he can't even touch Altair. Sirius sees Bomberman as something he can use to further his goals.

Sirius tells Bomberman that Altair had killed his family and destroyed his home and everything he loved. However, these, in his words, are "corny lies" he made up to get Bomberman to help him. After Bomberman does manage to defeat Altair, he reveals his true intentions.

Sirius, thanks to having full knowledge of it, absorbs the power of the MacGuffin and straight up kills Altair in a Family-Unfriendly Death, along with one of Altair's minions. To repay Bomberman for helping him, he decides to try and Planet Bomber and everything Bonberman loved, similar to the later villain Magolor from Kirby, except Sirius doesn't get redeemed in an Ass Pull.

To defeat him, one of Altair's minions forms an Enemy Mine with Bomberman, eventually managing to defeat Altair once and for all. Without this help, Bomberman wouldn’t have been strong enough to defeat Sirius on his own.

One thing the game heavily implies about him is that, due to him being the owner of the Omni Cube, he had previously imprisoned galaxies in it, and due to having more knowledge of how to use the cube, had more innocents imprisoned in it, and as such far more victims. This puts him just above Altair in bodycount. (they both don't kill many, they certainly put many, MANY people in an And I Must Scream type fate.)

Freudian Excuse?

None for either of them. Altair does this because he enjoys the destruction, and Sirius we don't get much info on other than that Altair stole his cube. Sirius made up an excuse that Altair killed his family, however this is a flat out lie he used to get Bomberman to support him. Although he may not have that much backstory, we see a lot of him and find out he's a manipulative traitor.

Resources

I can SEE this being an issue, due to low actual death toll, but what they really do is far worse. Imprisoning millions if not billions in an And I Must Scream fate, for a long, long time... jeez. They do a lot with what they have.

Altair's minions!

I hear you say this, yes. But, even though they care for him, he doesn't give a donkey's arse about them and probably wouldn't care if they died. Even his (robot) pet, who is the previously mentioned minion killed by Sirius, he doesn't care about.

Moral agency

This is a non issue, neither of them have anything up with them and they both do this out of their own will, like most Bomberman baddies. Pass, pass, pass.

Verdict

Altair: keep. He subjects a metric ton of people to a fate worse than death, and wished to do that to many more. No issues here.

Sirius: I think he's also a keep; an even easier one at that. He takes a sadistic joy in manipulating Bomberman to do his work for him, even lying to his face, and never cared about him as immediatly after killing Altair he attempted to do the same to Bomberman and his planet. He also has Altair's fate-worse-than-death-toll multiplied by 2. Doesn't discount Altair though.

In my book? Both of these guys are keeps. It's a very rare case: evil vs evil where both of the villains are CMS.

Bomberman having this many vile bastards as villains is funny, and I have a feeling it's not over yet. The series has over 30 games and two anime series. It has probably got a few more candidates in there somewhere.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#88655: Jul 2nd 2017 at 5:50:28 AM

Abstain on Angel Eyes. I think it depends on whether or not you consider the Dollars Trilogy a series or different stories altogether. If you consider them a series, then he falls short since he doesn't hit the heinous standard set by El Indio. If you consider each installment a different story, then he counts.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#88656: Jul 2nd 2017 at 6:02:24 AM

[tup] Sirius and Altair

Bomberman seems full of Vile Villain, Saccharine Show to the point where it seems a bit repetitive.

edited 2nd Jul '17 6:48:21 AM by ReynTime250

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#88657: Jul 2nd 2017 at 6:15:08 AM

Okay, I have some reservations about those two. On paper they sound really bad but I don't really know how they're handled in execution. How explicit is it that they are putting people in a Fate Worse than Death? Some of the stuff in the EP sounds more like Fridge Horror rather than something explicit.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#88658: Jul 2nd 2017 at 6:22:53 AM

[tup]Kurokawa, Rhand, Johann Ratka, Tork & Murthe, Sirius.

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#88659: Jul 2nd 2017 at 6:40:14 AM

[up][up]It's explicity mentioned that they suck up galaxies into the cube, and that the galaxies and people in them can't get out until the user of the cube is killed. I think they made it as explicit as they could that it's a Fate Worse than Death. In fact, while fighting Sirius at the start you're actually in the cube, and its appearance is that of a solar system.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#88660: Jul 2nd 2017 at 6:50:29 AM

I think it was also brought up at some point in 64 that the people who hold the Omni Cube can also completely control the lives of those trapped in the cube... so, essentially, Sirius and Alistair here are trapping galaxies worth of sentient innocents so they can play their own private delusions of God.

I'll give a yea to both of them.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#88661: Jul 2nd 2017 at 7:02:21 AM

[up] With that information I feel comfortable voting [tup] to both of them. The information that they control the lives of the people in the cube is kinda important when discussing their heinousness. But yeah, if they actually do stuff to the people in the cube I'd say they do enough. Also, [tup] to Tork and Murthe before I forget.

edited 2nd Jul '17 7:04:03 AM by TommyFresh

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#88663: Jul 2nd 2017 at 7:16:34 AM

His position at the camp gives him more resources (a gang of minions) and he's got three deaths and mass beatings against Indio and Ramon who're both responsible for mass killings and rapes

I think the key here is that Angel Eyes may have had far more people tortured than El Indio or Ramon have had killed. There's every indicator that every Confederate prisoner in the camps has been subjected to "special treatment" at Angel Eyes' and Wallace's hands, as evidenced by what the prisoners say, the condition of most of those prisoners, and the fact that when the camp warden tries to call out Angel Eyes on his behaviour, he implies it's been going on a long, long time.

I'd also dispute the notion that he has more resources than Ramon or El Indio. Angel Eyes has a gang, certainly, but so do Ramon and Indio, and while Indio might be on the run from the law, Ramon and his brothers have an entire border down under their thumb, ostensible competition from the Baxter's notwithstanding. Ramon was able to get his hands on a Gatling gun for the attack on the Mexican Army column, a weapon which was just barely coming into service when Angel Eyes was operating. Additionally, Ramon and El Indio don't have to operate under the eye of an authority figure—the camp warden might be dying, but he still exercises some control over Angel Eyes, who can't simply up and murder him without provoking an investigation. When Angel Eyes comments that he'll have to refrain from doing worse so long as the warden is alive, the implication that things are going to get much, much worse once he's gone are clear.

Frankly, I think the three villains of the Dollars trilogy do a good job of avoiding stepping on one another's toes. Ramon's got the highest bodycount, what with his massacre of the Mexican Army unit and the Baxter's, Indio's probably the most personally reprehensible what with sending his own men off to die and is the only onscreen child murderer of the batch, and Angel Eyes puts his efforts into institutionalized torture.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#88664: Jul 2nd 2017 at 7:28:02 AM

[tup] The Star Wars Legends duo.

I never stop being amazed at how the BIG THREE manage to find these doofuses. You guys really do consume a lot of media.

EDIT: Holy crap, Ambar, I'm so sorry. I was rereading some previous pages and realised I completely skimmed over your post about your fiancee's car crash. I really hope the two of you are OK. Remember, your personal life is much more important than the silly stuff we do here.

edited 2nd Jul '17 7:33:41 AM by PolarPhantom

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#88666: Jul 2nd 2017 at 8:19:24 AM

Condolences, Ambar. I'll give another yea to Rhand.

ThePest179 Since: Jul, 2015
#88667: Jul 2nd 2017 at 8:50:07 AM

Almost forgot to say keep Angel Eyes.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#88668: Jul 2nd 2017 at 10:03:53 AM

Yes to Star Wars duo and yes on the Bomberman duo. I hope your fiancé Ambar is doing well. Wish her all the best.

edited 2nd Jul '17 10:04:22 AM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#88669: Jul 2nd 2017 at 10:15:39 AM

Condolences, Ambar. Sending good thoughts.

TheFox Quick like... Since: Jan, 2013
Quick like...
#88670: Jul 2nd 2017 at 10:21:07 AM

I was looking through some pages, and I think that I might have found a current CM that may need a second look: Barracuda from The Punisher MAX.

To start off, in terms of whether or not he's done enough to qualify, Barracuda passes the test easily, even for a universe as pitch-black as Punisher MAX. He's got a long rap sheet of atrocities up to and including torture and infanticide. There's no denying that he's a bad, bad dude who has no interest in anything even remotely resembling redemption.

However, there may be a mitigating factor. According to the trope page for [1], which takes place in the same continuity, he appears to genuinely befriend Oswald Angelone, the meek hemophiliac son of a mob boss. He tries to help Oswald come out of his shell, is willing to cut him in on his plans, and sticks his neck out during a gunfight to save him. For a character described as being supremely selfish, this is quite unexpected.

In the end, Barracuda ends up killing Oswald, but it was an accident that sprouted from a gesture of friendliness (He momentarily forgot about Oswald's hemophilia and gave him a hearty slap on the back) and he was upset by what he had done.

Is Barracuda still evil? Yes, absolutely. Does he go on to do more heinous things before and after his miniseries? Yes. But are his interactions with Oswald enough to disqualify him from CM status? I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking for some input on the matter.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#88671: Jul 2nd 2017 at 10:24:51 AM

I say nay. As I've addressed before with this, he's just...vaguely annoyed he killed Oswald and gets over it pretty much seconds later before cannibalizing someone else he was supposedly close to.

I got the impression he was just heavily amused at the tiny kid trying to be tough than any real or actual friendship. Literally everyone who ever works with Barracuda ends up outliving their usefulness to him sooner or later

TheFox Quick like... Since: Jan, 2013
Quick like...
#88672: Jul 2nd 2017 at 10:32:40 AM

Ah, I see. I haven't read the comic myself, but the trope page and the Wikipedia article gave off a hint that it might have been something significant.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#88673: Jul 2nd 2017 at 11:03:00 AM

[up][up] I actually WAS curious, and think he DOES care for Oswald...before getting over his death a few seconds later.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#88674: Jul 2nd 2017 at 11:12:46 AM

And for my proposals today...

What's The Work?

A 1983 low-budget post apocalyptic film called The New Barbarians where, After the End, humanity continues to exist in small pockets of colonies...but all is not well in the wasteland. An order known as the Templars has formed. Their self-appointed mission? To exterminate all humanity and finish the job the apocalypse started. The subject of today's EP? The master and founder of the Templars, One, and his right-hand Shadow.

Who are One And Shadow?

Years prior, One and Shadow formed the Templars with the single minded pursuit of exterminating the remaining humans in the world, driven in One's case by an apocalyptic fervor. Shadow? Seems to be solely involved for the fun of the slaughter. At the film's opening, the two lead their forces into a colony and massacre everyone there. Shadow is noticeably the most sadistic and cruel of the Templars, his own vehicle modified so he can use a mounted flamethrower to outright cook his victims. After the extermination is complete, the Templars pillage everything and move on....we see how One continues to inspire his followers, rallying them into murderous frenzies as they chant his name.

We then encounter our hero: a former Templar himself by the name of Scorpion who ends up interfering with Shadow and One's other top officer Mako to save a group of innocents. Shadow and Scorpion bandy words and Shadow offers to bring Scorpion back to One to bring him back into the fold if Scorpion will give up the people he's protecting. Scorpion refuses, also knowing Shadow hates him and will betray him in a heartbeat. it's also seen Shadow has more power in the group than he appears and is one of the few who can actually take a stand to One on anything. Mako ends up trying to seize power from One and ends up dying, while Shadow and One burn his remaining follower alive on Mako's pyre. Shadow encourages the Templars to get more brutal in their attacks as well, leading to more murders.

Scorpion's attempts to rescue the colonists goes awry and he's captured. In a bizarre sequence, Scorpion is tied up by Shadow and in full view of the Templars, One rapes Scorpion with Shadow facilitating it and watching with an evil grin. A broken Scorpion is taken to be disposed of, but is rescued by the wasteland warrior Nadir (played by Fred "The Hammer" Williamson). The Templars are led by Shadow and One to massacre the other colonists, but Nadir and Scorpion come to the rescue. Shadow snaps and begins gunning down innocent captives at random before Scorpion finishes him off and engages One in a last duel, ending with the mad Templar's end.

Heinous Standard?

Besides Mako, the only villains. Between eachother...Shadow's the most brutal and sadistic, who stands out by the manner of death he brings to his victims, his independence in the group and how he encourages the Templars to be even worse.

Mitigating Qualities?

One is an apocalyptic madman devoted to annihilating all that lives. he actually seems to care for Mako at first, but when Mako dies, he dismisses him pretty handily and decides he was too weak to live before having him cremated and killing Mako's followers. As for Shadow...zero whatsoever.

Conclusion?

I say keep both


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