During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Dark Kat, Ganza, and John Dee.
Power Rangers got a bum rap with critics.
Ahmanet is Sofia Boutella's first CM by the way from the looks of it. It's too bad that it had to be someone that Word of God said wasn't supposed to count, but they made far less sympathetic than intended.
I think with 1991's Cape Fear, they wanted Cady's reason for what he was doing to seem more justified, but ultimately he proved that while he claimed he wanted Bowden to pay for violating his oath, it was just because he was locked up. Bowden even calls him out on raping the 16 year old being wrong, but Cady doesn't care. He only cares that he could have gotten off and he didn't. Mitchum's Cady didn't claim to be righteous and serving a higher power, he just straight up wanted revenge and didn't hide that.
But I digress, if the other characters treated Ahmanet as being tragic, that should disqualify her, but it seems like the writers didn't really properly work out what would actually make her sympathetic. It's such a tough case because she seems to count because the writers' intention was muffled in the delivery.
edited 25th Jun '17 11:40:25 AM by futuremoviewriter
We never use Word of God; don't see why it makes this any different.
As for The Mummy, yeah I do agree with some of the issues with the film, but I mostly only watched it for Ahmanet.
edited 25th Jun '17 8:41:36 AM by AustinDR
Ahamanet, by the sound of things. Sounds like she could have been a perfectly serviceable CM without trying to add that sympathy, but props to the writers for at least planning to try. How many C Ms are there who are just more complex characters not implemented properly? Unalaq and Griffin come to mind.
Dark Kat, John Dee and Ganza.
@G-Editor: I could see her being one of the best female villains in video game history, but saying she's the best female villain is a bit much.
@DemonDuck: Are these comics you're reading pages long or issues long? An eight-issue-long comic is decent for a villain like Ganza. But I'm questioning just how they managed to cram all that into a comic that's eight pages long.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.'Yes' to John Dee and Ganza.
Now then, I have a couple candidates for today.....this first one is gonna be, like I mentioned, a rather annoying one for some, entertaining for others, and just "Meh, another candidate" for yet still others.
What's the work?
Back in 2005 and 2007, two Fantastic Four films were made, the original, titled simply Fantastic Four, and its sequel, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, starring Jessica Alba and Captain America Chris Evans among other stars.
First film's baddie was none other than Dr. Doom, while the second film's was Galactus, neither counted for a number of reasons.
Well, much like David Banner from Hulk (2003), the novelizations change that fact. Ergo, I've a villain to propose that the novels turned into a CM, or at least an EXTREMELY close one.
And it's not Galactus.
Who is he?
VICTOR VON DOOM, the greatest intellectual mind the world has ever known! More brilliant than Einstein, more wise than Aristotle, more charming than Manson, and most of all, just BETTER than everyone else! Except......RICHAAAAAAAARDS!!!
Ahem
Sorry, had to get THAT out my system.
Anywho, yup, it's Victor Von Doom here, ladies and gentlemen. Von Doom is the CEO of Von Doom Industries, a mega corporation that specializes in all forms of science and technology.
Hailing from the European country of Latveria, Von Doom started in poverty, but, by willfully changing his personality and using some manipulative prowess only someone who cons people for money to survive could possess, slowly but surely built Von Doom Industries, setting up shop in America.
Before this, however, Von Doom had gotten the chance to go to an American college, where he met.....Reed freaking Richards (Yes, this is what Von Doom mentally refers to him as often, roll with it.
Reed was a supergenius, much like Von Doom, but whereas Von Doom's genius somewhat stumbled in greater science, Reed was even more brilliant in these matters, which made Von Doom INSTANTLY hate him.
To make up for this failing to Reed, Von Doom became smarter in business and manipulation tactics, eventually enabling him to build Von Doom Industries.
So now....for the PLOT!
What has he done?
Von Doom is approached by Reed in the present for a mission into outer space to study a cosmic storm that will be passing by Earth. Reed believes that, if they can harness its power, they will be able to create a cure for many horrible diseases, like cancer and the like.
After taunting and bullying Reed, Von Doom forces him to agree that 75% of the profits from the endeavor will go to Von Doom Industries, to Reed agrees.
Oh, another indicator of how much Von Doom hates RICHAAAAAARDS? Von Doom's current girlfriend, Susan Storm, was the love of Reed's life, and Von Doom started dating her solely to screw with Reed. Ugh.
Now, the space mission begins, with the passengers being Reed, Von Doom, Sue Storm, her hotheaded brother Johnny Storm, and Reed's best friend Ben Grimm.
Once in space, Von Doom attempts to propose to Sue, before he is rudely interrupted by Reed freaking Richards, with the news that the cosmic storm is coming MUCH closer than originally calculated, and he begs Von Doom to abort the mission and move them out of the way of the storm.
Von Doom mocks Reed's cowardice, proclaiming they'll be perfectly safe as long as the shields are up, at which point Reed points out that Ben is currently floating outside of the station in a spacesuit, trying to repair a minor problem.
As Reed and Johnny head out of the shielding area to assist Ben, Von Doom and Sue stay behind, ready to close the shields as soon as the trio return. Cue Von Doom waiting about 0.8 seconds before literally going "Ben's still twenty yards out. Not going to make it back in time....oh well. Too bad."
Von Doom tries to close the shields, leaving Reed, Johnny, and Ben high and dry, but Sue obviously rejects this idea and takes off to help the trio....Von Doom's response? "Can't BELIEVE I almost MARRIED that girl. How pathetic."
Though the shields go up, the cosmic storm impacts Von Doom, same as the other four passengers, with the cosmic storm passing right through the oh-so-impenetrable shielding his scientists assured him of ("Someone is getting their ass FIRED").
Luckily, Von Doom and the others survive the storm, and manage to land the station back on Earth, where they soon heal from their wounds and return to normal.
Well, not really. See, they've all developed some....interesting traits. Reed's skin has now taken on a rubbery texture, enabling him to morph and stretch his body to great lengths. Sue has developed the ability to turn invisible and generate small forcefields with her mind, while her brother Johnny can instantaneously set himself aflame, with no harm to himself in the process. And Ben? Ben....gets turned into a rock man. Coolio.
Von Doom, meanwhile, seems perfectly ok....except for the nasty scar in his head that seems to slowly get wider and wider. And the fact that anytime he gets cut or some such, he never bleeds. And the fact that he's started to make metal clinking sounds when clapping. Hrrrrmmm..
Von Doom realizes that, since the cosmic storm passed through all that metal shielding and electronics, that it his "ability" is that his skin is now slowly peeling off, with a layer of near impenetrable metal taking its place, while he is also developing minor electromagnetic abilities.
As Reed attempts to create a machine to "cure" them all, Von Doom tries to get back into Sue's good graces, all the while thinking to himself "Why won't this woman do what I WANT? She's supposed to be fragile around me, damnit."
In the meanwhile, Reed, Ben, Johnny, and Sue have impulsively used their powers to save human lives, leading them to become public stars, infuriating Von Doom as he gets less and less media coverage.
Later, Von Doom gets help from his personal doctor to study his "disease", to which the doctor states that this needs to be brought to the Medical Board, as it could be infectious.
Von Doom, at his wit's end from the fact that his business partners are breathing down his neck over his failed space mission and Reed is getting all this glory from his superpowers, promptly shoves his fist through his doctor's chest, killing the man.
When Ned, one of Von Doom's business partners, informs Von Doom he is pulling out of Von Doom Industries, Von Doom states he completely understands....at which point he waits for Ned to step into a puddle, then uses his weak electromagnetic abilities to send a shock pulse into said puddle, electrocuting Ned to death. Von Doom notes that if someone else were with Ned, regardless who they were, he would have killed them as well.
As his skin peels away ever more, with Von Doom barely noticing it anymore, he finally makes his move against Reed for all the "injustices" he has pulled on him, and, manipulating Ben into using the machine that will cure him, uncaring that it could very well kill him, Von Doom is gleeful when it cures Ben....as now, he no loner has his super strong rock form, and no one can stop him.
His electro powers at their peak, Von Doom blasts Ben into a nearby wall, at which point Reed arrives, only to be blasted by Von Doom as well.
Proclaiming he is a new man and that he deserves a new name, Von Doom proclaims his new name shall be....DOOM!
....until he realizes that's the name of some shooter video game, leading him to re-state his name as.....DOCTOR DOOM!
Doom (Whew, I can finally drop the "Von" part) promptly smashes Reed out onto the street, and, while heading out to retreive him, Doom is approached by his doorman, who Doom blasts through a window with a smile on his face.
Dragging Reed back to his building, Doom inserts hyperdermic needles into Reed's skin, then pumps a super freezing agent into him, taking sick glee from Reed slowly freezing to death, the process taking longer due to his rubbery texture, with Doom even snapping two of Reed's frozen fingers in the wrong direction, much to Reed's pain.
Donning a cape and hood, plus an iron mask, Doom next fires a heat seeking missile at Johnny Storm, knowing his naturally hot skin from his fire powers will draw the missile to him, knowing that Sue and Ben will be caught up in the blast.
As Johnny stops the missile and Ben uses the machine to restore his rock form, Doom is attacked by Sue in her invisible form, though Doom giddily smacks her around before attempting to kill Reed in front of her.
Luckily, Ben shows up, rock form returned, and duels with Doom until the rest of the team, Johnny, Sue, and Reed, all show up to assist.
Ultimately, Doom is beaten when Johnny superheats his metal skin, then Reed fires supercold water at him from a nearby hydrant, with the combo turning Doom into a statue, at which point he is sent back to Latveria by his assitant Leonard.
In the sequel book, Rise of the Silver Surfer, Doom is still trapped in his unconscious stone form, however the arrival of an alien entity known as the Silver Surfer sends out a cosmic wave that frees Doom from his confinement, at which point he promptly snaps the neck of a nearby man for no apparent reason.
With his metal skin having healed from the cosmic waves of the Surfer, but still posessing his electro powers, Doom tracks down and tries to bargain with the Surfer for world domination, to which the Surfer calmly rejects his offer and flies off.
Later approaching the military, who are working to stop the Surfer as he attacks several cities, leaving huge craters in specific spots around the world, Doom meets up with his old "buddies" again, Reed, Sue, Ben, and Johnny, now all going by the name of the Fantastic Four.
Through the definition of Teeth-Clenched Teamwork, Doom assists the foursome in creating a weapon to knock the Surfer off of his board, his source of power, so they may capture him and study the board.
This succeeds, and Sue proceeds to talk to the captured Surfer, who reveals he serves an intergalactic entity of swirling organic matter known as Gah Lak Tus, a mindless monster who has Surfer travel to planets, smash huge craters into said planet, then continue the process, while Gah Lak Tus uses the craters as entry points for his energy to seep into the planets and devour them (This is not a joke, this is how the story treats Galactus, ugh).
Meanwhile, the military allows Doom to study the Surfer's board. Big mistake number 27 of the military in this novel, folks.
Doom proceeds to blast a hole in a soldier with his electro powers, hop aboard the board, and, using one of his nifty devices, allow the board's power to be transferred into himself.
Testing his new power on a nearby general, Doom proceeds to....gruesomely kill the man. Like, seriously, in the film, he blasted half the guy's head off. Novel? He uses his cosmic powers to make his blood pool in his fingers, his heart and lungs zoom up and get caught in his throat to choke him, until finally making his brain expand until it explodes out the back of his head. Eeewwwww.....
Immediately annihilating half the military base, killing who knows how many soldiers in the process, Doom flies off, cackling like a lunatic at his new godly powers.
The Fantastic Four, convincing the Surfer to assist them, chase after Doom, attempting to inform him that Surfer needs his board back to attempt to stop Gah Lak Tus, but Doom ain't having none of it as he destroys the Great Wall of China and uses the rubble to attack the Four with.
Eventually cornering the Surfer, Doom attempts to run him through with a spear, but Sue takes the shot instead, leading Doom to momentarily fly off in frustration.
While flying, Doom realizes he still loves Sue, and that he hates what he's become, and that he wants to change, and he proceeds to sacrifice himself to stop Gah Lak Tus and save the Earth.
Oh wait, that's not right.....ah, here we go.
While flying, Doom quickly realizes he doesn't CARE if Sue dies, as she's now just a "mortal" like the rest of them, and he is now a god, and when Johnny attempts to attack him, Doom gleefully decides he's going to kill him as happily as he did Sue.
As Gah Lak Tus arrives, Doom witnesses cities crumble, oceans boil, and people die by the countless....and LAUGHS, taking overwhelming joy in the destruction around him and deciding that the Earth deserves to die for not appreciating his genius, not caring or desiring to save the Earth.
Unfortunately for Doom, Johnny and Ben attack him once more and, smashing his device that connects him to the board, they are able to smack him off the board, at which point he falls into the ocean, where that cool, nifty armor of his weighs him down. Down into the briny depths, likely never to be seen again....
The Surfer recovers his board, revives Sue, and sacrifices himself to stop Gah Lak Tus, yay, woo-hoo, cool.
He grew up poor and got slightly picked on in school, but that's not even his actual excuse he runs with. His "excuse" is that.....someone was smarter than him. Wait wat.
Doom's entire megalomaniacal outlook and desire for power stems near SOLELY from his hatred of RICHAAAAAAARDS, with nearly every move he makes being a calculated plan to hurt Reed until he gets his hands on the Surfer's board, at which point he proclaims himself above such petty things.
Redeeming features?
He has two potential ones.
First up, his "care" for Sue. Doom.....sees Sue as an object. He outright states that she should nearly always cow to him, he first hooked up with her to hurt Reed, when she expresses true care for Reed or anyone else that isn't him, he gets annoyed and heavily considers dropping her, and, most telling, when one of Doom's lackies asks why he picked Sue to go after, Doom simply states "Because she's something I can't just GET. She resists, and that makes the chase all the better."
Secondly, there's a scene in the second novel where he is watching news stories about starvation and mass death in Latveria, and he seems somewhat angry.
But whoops, that's completely and totally proven to be complete BS when he takes sick glee from the fact that Gah Lak Tus will annihilate the entire Earth, Latveria included, deciding he is now a god and that nothing on Earth holds any meaning to him any longer.
Which also brings us back to Sue. When Doom accidentally runs her through, he seems shocked, thinking "I just stabbed the woman I once loved, the one who made me feel human" and even flies off in the opposite direction to "get the sight away from him."
But....he then begins cackling like a maniac as Gah Lak Tus arrives and begins destroying EVERYTHING, the area Sue is in as well, proclaims himself a god above every mortal thing, and when he fights Johnny one last time, Doom is explicitly said to be "Eager to destroy Johnny the same way he had (Sue)".
So, yeah, coupling this with the fact that Doom sees Sue as a possession as seen in the original novel, I'm chalking this up to him just getting one final rage in when she sacrifices herself, as it means he'll never be able to "have her" the way he wants. He completely sheds any care he might have for her immediately afterwards as he decides with glee he is above mortals, so yeah.
Heinousness?
Worst sentient character in-story. Gah Lak Tus is the worst as a planet destroyer, but he is more of a force of naturethan anything, and Doom has nonwhere near his resources.
Now, much like in the films, Doom here is pretty much your average supervillain for most of the novels. He kills a handful of people, sadistically manipulates and tries to kill the heroes, with his main stand out crime being what he does to that general.
But....by the end of the second novel? Doom acknowledges that the Earth is being destroyed by Gah Lak Tus, and he could fight it to try to save the planet (As Surfer ends up doing)....and doesn't. Doom just LAUGHS as people die and the Earth crumbles around him, reveling in the destruction as it is destroying all ties to his former mortal life, and he seems to be planning to fly off into space and become a god over other planets, so yeah, not only actively allowing the Earth's destruction when knowing he could at least TRY to stop it, but taking such euphoric JOY in it flings him WAY over the line.
Final Verdict?
See no reason not to say Keep him, honestly.
Our first (Except that 1600s one) version of DOCTOR DOOM as a CM, and hopefully one of our only ones. Making Doom a CM basically stamps on his entire character.
Though I will say that this version of Doom is SO DIFFERENT from most versions of him (Coming across more as a Norman Osborn Expy, honestly) that it's not AS much of a slap in the face as, say, Frank Miller's Luthor.
edited 25th Jun '17 11:25:04 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!@Austin DR Yeah, that's true. They really wanted her to be sympathetic or empathetic, they should have expressed it better. Show, don't tell.
Someone brought up that in A Game of Shadows, Moriarty and Moran seem to have a Villainous Friendship. If that's the case (from what I recall, it may be), then it may be grounds for disqualifying Moriarty.
I know the version from Young Sherlock Holmes doesn't count (at least I don't think he does) because he seemed to care about his parents and his sister (who was just as crazy as him though) and believed in his ideology. Also, a lot of his character is expressed in dialogue rather than actions or events, so that may have something to do with it too.
edited 25th Jun '17 11:47:21 AM by futuremoviewriter
Doom, I THINK. Is he not willing to try to stop Gah Lak Tus out of self-preservation, or For the Evulz?
BTW, I'm wondering if we SHOULDN'T have a page for Marvel literature. Between the Marvel Novel Series (6? entries), MODOK and the Ripper from this week, Forever Red, and the two novelizations, and I may see if I can't have my parents bring me my other Marvel novels to see if anyone else counts (specifically Carnage).
Completely For the Evulz here. Doom never even ONCE thinks "Maybe I'll stop him then rule the Earth" or anything of the sort. Gah Lak Tus shows up, begins destroying the planet, and Doom is just LOVING IT, taking euphoric joy from watching the Earth die and seeing Gah Lak Tus feed, so yeah, while Doom would have died if he had taken on Gah Lak Tus, he never even considers it.
His only thoughts are on how beautiful the Earth being destroyed is and how much of a god he's become.
edited 25th Jun '17 11:48:31 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
