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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#87676: Jun 21st 2017 at 8:33:04 PM

[up] Wow, that's awful. That definitely should be cut.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#87677: Jun 21st 2017 at 8:43:23 PM

Lightysnake: I was tempted to reserve Venom myself, but eh... a Venom movie without Spider-Man, the key part of Eddie Brock becoming Venom? And I've never been that big on Carnage, so eh. Ain't losing sleep over not saving the date.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#87678: Jun 21st 2017 at 9:18:29 PM

Hello, everybody. I would like to suggest a C.M.:

The work: Armageddon Force is an independently published novella by Adam Gratteau. It details the events that occur in a world long after the fall of our own, and how that world is reaching its own end. The story is about a group of extraordinary heroes, each with a powerful gift and a tragic past, banding together to defend what remains of their world.

The villain: The main antagonist of the book is Dr. Edgar Malbarn. He is the leader of the secret Carvina Corporation, which specializes in robotics and military. He seeks to cause as much pain and suffering as possible, for no other reason than to gain personal satisfaction from it.

His actions: Before Dr. Malbarn is introduced, protagonist Jon Heff, a soldier, is on a routine mission through the ruins of Albany, New York when his truck hits a land mine planted by the terrorist force the Red Moon. All of his teammates are killed in the explosion except him, but his arms are severed by sharp debris before he blacks out.

Jon wakes up naked and strapped to a table, where Dr. Malbarn introduces himself. He states that he and his corporation, posing as medical teams, take wounded soldiers and civilians off of battlefields and transport them to their base, where they are strapped down and used as surgical test subjects. Malbarn reveals that he and his scientists capture dozens of soldiers and use their robotics to give them new prosthetic and enhanced body parts, and that when a sufficient amount of soldiers are completed, they will be brainwashed and used as Carvina's slaves, utilizing their new enhanced bodies and prior military training to wreck havoc. When Jon questions why, Malbarn tells him that it is simply because he wants to spread as much pain as possible, and his own army would be enough to do so. Malbarn goes on to tell Jon that, not only does he mechanically modify his victims, he and his scientists do it all without full sedation, and will sometimes perform completely unnecessary operations, then fix them just so the victim will be in extreme physical pain during the entire process. Malbarn gives Jon some weak sedatives, saying that they are just enough to keep Jon from passing out from the pain, as he wants him awake the entire operation.

Over the next few weeks, Malbarn tortures Jon by performing daily surgeries on him without numbing him up, opening his chest and shoulders to attack metal prosthetic arms. When Malbarn isn't working on Jon, he works on a victim named Yui Shinozaki, who lost both of her legs in combat. Malbarn tells Jon that, on top of his surgeries, he has inflicted severe mental damage on Yui, making her scream and cry just from the very sight of him entering the room. Malbarn connects wires to Jon's nerves, then begins attaching the metal, which he heated before applying.

Malbarn continues operating, but Jon shows resistance to the tortures and continually feels concern for the safety of the other victims. Malbarn becomes enraged by Jon's good nature, and decides to stop giving Jon any anesthetics, pouring weak acids and chemicals into his wounds, and start heating the screws that would attach the metal to his body before screwing them in.

Malbarn continues woking on Jon and Yui, until he eventually finishes them. Malbarn mocks Jon, and tells him of each victim that he and his doctors kill during procedures. When Jon finally works up the strength to yell at Malbarn, Malbarn stabs him with a screwdriver. Just as he is about to torture Jon some more, a group of freedom fighters, including Jon's long-lost brother Sam, find the Carvina base and stage a revolt with the prisoners. Malbarn grabs a gun and tries to shoot Sam, but is struck by one of Sam's kunai and pinned to a wall. Sam frees Jon, and the group helps free all the prisoners and drive them to safety.

Jon soon joins the freedom fighters, and they begin trying to preserve justice and order, with Jo using his powerful new prosthetic arms to provide the muscle of the group. They are later joined by Yui, who swears a life debt to Jon for helping to free her during the revolt. The group fight threats, including the continuing chaos spread by Carvina.

Malbarn regained consciousness, but remained pinned to the wall. The wall he had been pinned to contained hot machinery, and the kunai's tip had melted and since solidified, permanently trapping Malbarn's arm to the wall. Malbarn managed to reach some of the anesthetics, and injected himself with so many that he did not feel anything when he took a saw and removed his own arm. He had his doctors perform the same surgury on him that he had performed on Jon, but skipping the torture. The process only took a few hours, then Malbarn killed all of the doctors for knowing the details and potential weaknesses of his new arm. Malbarn began an obsessive hunt for Jon, Yui, and the freedom fighters. He sent out troops to try and recapture the other victims, and orchestrated several violent and fatal crimes and attacks across the country to spread chaos and draw the freedom fighters out. He became obsessed with Jon, Yui, and the force and analyzed security cameras to pinpoint weaknesses and memorize fighting styles.

He gathered together guards from several Carvina bases and formed a small army, then found a lead as to where Jon and Yui were hiding. He traced them back to the freedom force's headquarters: a modest farm owned by members and brothers Nathaniel and Aidan Cyan. He equipped a bombing plane and a troop carrier and sent off for the farm, bombing it. The force escaped, and Malbarn came down to confront them. He found Jon, Yui, and their friends and mocked them before drugging member Adam and leaving, letting the army fight. The freedom force fought against Carvina's army, and Jon managed to work his way to Malbarn who was watching and simply letting his organization's members die off. Jon fights Malbarn, who uses his analysis of Jon and his knowledge of Jon's arms to gain the upper hand until Jon finally begins to avoid him. Malbarn slashes Jon with a knife, but Jon takes it from him and stabs him with it, then proceeds to use his mechanical arms to punch Malbarn's head off of his body, killing him.

After the army is defeated and Malbarn killed, Jon and Yui continue to have nightmares about him.

Mitigating factors/Freudian excuses: Most of Malbarn's actions are directed towards a certain few individuals. While it is confirmed that he has both directly and indirectly killed tens of dozens of people (both victims of his tortures and those caught in his attacks), he mainly focuses on only a few.

Heinous standard: The heinous standard could be seen as rather high, with the other villains of the book being street gangs and a radical terrorist group called the Red Moon. This leads to a lot of destruction (mainly creating the dystopian setting) and some violent crimes and scenarios. However, Malbarn and Carvina serve as the main antagonists, and provide the more descriptive, gruesome scenarios and scenes in the book, while the others are more background to show how dangerous the world is becoming.

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#87679: Jun 21st 2017 at 9:30:33 PM

Most Ax-Crazy CM? I'd say Frank Booth.

edited 21st Jun '17 9:33:47 PM by speyeker

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#87681: Jun 21st 2017 at 9:57:01 PM

[tup] Lester Ballard, Nomura and Blackway.

Alright to make up for my bad joke, I have a serious effort post, regarding yet another Marvel novel villain.

But before that. I have solicit some opinions, do people here think the established monsters from those novels, like Carnage, Mr. Sinister and Baron Strucker are not unique enough to have their own write ups, because these novels made some efforts to be in continuity with the comics, even though they added some unique elements of their own?

Anyway, here is the villain I am want to propose, the main villain of the novel Iron Man Operation AIM and a new spin on a familiar face:

Who is Modok 1.5? What has he done?

Some back ground is needed, this novel is a sequel to another novel called Armor Trap, where Baron Strucker kidnaps Tony Stark, to force him to build him new Iron Man armors and black mailing War Machine into stealing an energy chip from AIM. Strucker is defeated and the chip is destroyed, but someone wants to recreate the chip.

This novel is set at time when the original Modok was thought be dead, killed by the Serpent Society. However AIM has other problems, the adaptoids, robots AIM made that can copy any living being, have turned against them. To fight the adaptoids, AIM recreates the experiment that created Modok, turning one from their scientists into Modok 1.5. That was a bad idea, Modok throws in his lot with the adaptoids, becoming their master. Modok launches an assault on an AIM undersea base, killing hundreds of their scientists, looking for the tech to recreate the chip. Iron Man comes to the base after an adaptoids disguised as Spymaster was caught lurking at Stark Enterprises H.Q, suspecting AIM is involved. Iron Man finds the carnage and finds a lone scientist named Christina Bright has survived the carnage.

Bright tells Iron Man of the various ingredients Modok would need to create a new energy chip.

Long story short, Iron Man enlists some other heroes, Black Panther, Captain America and War Machine to stop MODOK from getting those ingredients. They all encounter adaptoids disguised as various individuals like Mr. Hyde, Cobra, Deathlok and the Mandarin. The Mandarin adaptoid kills more AIM agents at a AIM space station and even tries to make the space station crash into Miami, to get Iron Man off his tail, which Modok is ultimately responsible for. Iron Man saves Miami, but all the adaptoids have suceeded in their tasks. However Modok needs a truly high tech lab to make the chip in and has lost the use of AIM's best labs during these battles. However Stark deduces that Modok could use Stark Enterprises' labs to make the chip.

Iron Man heads back to his HQ, to discover Modok has indeed taken over and is building a new chip. Modok intends to use it to increase his mental powers and kill off all of humanity and replace them with adaptoids, Modok also intends to go into space and begin to kill alien civilizations and replace them with adaptoids. Modok eventually intends to destroy all the adaptoids as well, wanting to replace them when he develops something superior.

Anyway after a long battle, Iron Man defeats Modok. However after knocking out Modok, the chip goes critical and is going to blow up Stark Enterprises. Bright, who was really an adaptoid all long and has developed feelings for Iron Man, uses his her body to cover up Modok, shielding Iron Man and the others from the blast, ending the evil of Modok 1.5 forever.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

Again since these novels are kinda cannon with the comics, so I am not sure what metric we judge them by.

Since this is an Iron Man novel, we could judge it by that standard and I think Modok 1.5 easily passes. The guy is genocidal, with long term goals of being an Omnicidal Maniac. This is one of the most evil versions of Modok I have seen.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

No way. Modok 1.5 actually volunteered for this process that turned him into a freak and when Cap offers to help him restore his humanity, Modok scoffs at the idea, seeing himself as a god who has transcended humanity.

There is also nothing cute or funny about this version of Modok, he is just a hate filled genocidal psychopath.

He may hate humanity, but he has no love for his adaptoids either, treating them like minions, planning to destroy them when he can develop something better and threatening to kill Bright when she turned on him to save Iron Man.

Final Verdict?

I say keep.

edited 21st Jun '17 10:15:07 PM by Overlord

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87682: Jun 21st 2017 at 10:04:21 PM

Yea to Dr. Malbarn (good lord, he sounds awful) and MODOK 1.5

Most ax crazy? Carnage, The Joker, Killer BOB, Frank Booth, Tiberius from Demonbane

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#87684: Jun 21st 2017 at 11:12:25 PM

A handy 'Yes' to Malbarn, Modok 1.5, and Nomura. Sicko, that guy.

Alrighty, got one final candidate for now, this time from a video game! A...pretty good one, at that.

Chaos Rings is a video game series developed by Square Enix of Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy fame, and the gameplay, stories, and characters greatly resemble the aforementioend series. Much like Final Fantasy, darn near all of the games have a different cast of characters and, in some cases, take place in different dimensions than the others.

Now, thus far, there are four games in the series. The original (Chaos Rings), its sequel (Chaos Rings Omega), ITS sequel (Chaos Rings II), and the final game (Chaos Rings III).

Now, the original, Omega, and III have no Keeps. They each either fail in heinousness, have genuinely well-intentioned goals, or have jacked up moral agency.

The same cannot be said for the second game's villain.

What's the work?

Chaos Rings II is the third game in the series (Following the original and then Omega).

Taking place on a medieval-ages type Earth, our story's hero is Darwin, a reserved yet optimistic young man whose world is turned upside down when his entire camp of mercenaries is slaughtered by monsters.

Darwin is then teleported alongside his boastful, tough-as-nails friend Orlando to a huge castle, floating above the Earth's atmosphere, where they meet 3 strangers and Orlando's sister, Marie.

The group is stunned to learn from the owner of the castle, a man named Bachs, that the Earth is in great peril. An ancient evil entity named Neron the Destroyer (DEVIL!!!), sealed inside the Earth millenia ago by Amon the Creator (GOD!!!), is trying to escape his confinement, an event not that rare to Bachs and his personal assistant, the emotionless Lessica.

Bachs reveals that Neron has tried to escape his confinement around 1,684 times, with each attempt blocked only by Bachs carrying out Amon's "Rite of Resealment".

The Rite is carried out by randomly selecting around 5 or 6 people, choosing one to be the "Nominator" and the others to be "Pillars", then having the Nominator sacrifice the Pillars to use their life forces, called Sopias, as fuel to power the Rite and seal Neron away once more.

Our hero Darwin, selected to be the Nominator for this Rite, must now cope with the fact that, while dueling with various monsters and the Four Horsemen of the freaking Apocalypse, he will have to strike down the rest of his group, comprised of the badass single mom Li Hua, the Blood Knight samurai Araki, the pampered young child Conor, and even Marie, Darwin's best friend and secret crush since childhood.

Now, where does our villain, Neron, fit into all of this? Let's discuss it, shall we? But first, a quick tidbit:

Neron isn't the bad guy.

Who is He?

Amon. The Creator. The Way and the Truth. GOD.

Many millenia ago, Amon and Neron were two entities in constant war with the other, with their abilities and immortality coming from the fact that belief was the source of their power, and seeing as they both possessed tremendous power, believing in each other while dueling was enough to sustain them for eternity.

Unfortunately, eternity wouldn't last, as Amon finally struck down Neron, however, before he could do his victory dance, Amon realized that, without Neron and his powerful belief, Amon would lose all of his power.

And so, Amon revived Neron, sealed him away inside a planet's husk, then used the imprisoned Neron to create a new form of life on this husk....humanity.

What has he done?

First and foremost, Amon keeping Neron locked away, unable to move or any such thing but fully aware of his surroundings, is portrayed as the And I Must Scream that it is.

Now, Amon quickly realized that, with Neron sealed away and humanity being just freshly born, he needed some way to spark belief and prayers in his name to restore himself to full power.

Amon proceeded to unleash demonic monsters onto the Earth, which promptly slaughtered about a third of the population. Following this, Amon froze time, selected around a half dozen humans, then, taking the form of stern mentor Bachs, informed them of their position.

"Bachs" delegated the role of Nominator to one of the humans, the role of Pillar to the others, and informed them that Neron was the cause of the demonic monsters, and that the only way to reseal him was for the Nominator to sacrifice the lives of the Pillars.

This Nominator soon agreed and sacrificed (Read: Murdered) the Pillars, after which Amon, using his created puppet Lessica, stole the soul of the Nominator.

Amon then created his Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (War, Famine, Death, and Conquest), and sicced them onto the Earth to butcher 90% of the rest of humanity, keeping alive only those who were deemed "worthy followers" of Amon.

Once this cleansing was through, Amon sent the soulless, controlled Nominator back to Earth to sing praise and glory to Amon for his role in stopping the evil Neron from resurfacing and saving the last vestiges of humanity.

Amon then basked in the glowing belief and praise that humanity had for him following this....until a few centuries passed and most of humanity had lost belief in him.

Now, what's a god to do? Why, RINSE AND REPEAT, OF COURSE!

Yup, everything I just described, the slaughter of one third of humanity, the manipulating the Nominator into striking down the several Pillars under the illusion it is saving the planet, the soul stealing, the cleansing of most of humanity.....Amon does it again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

Every single time, after a few centuries pass and humanity forgets about him, Amon pulls the same crap with the BS Rite of Resealment and such to reestablish belief in him and prolong his life and powers ever more.

Oh, and an extra nasty note? Amon DEEPLY enjoys picking friends, family members, and lovers as Pillars, then enjoying the show as the Nominator has to strike them down under the illusion that it is "saving humanity". Amon will also send the Pillars and Nominator on numerous missions together so they will grow close and it will make the sacrificing part even harder. Why? Because it adds that extra "human element" to the stories his brainwashed Nominator will tell to the remnants of humanity after each cleansing.

In just one notable case, Amon picked a man to be the Nominator, then picked said man's child daughter as one of the Pillars. Prick.

By the time of the present, there have been 1,684 Rites of Resealment. Which means Amon has wiped out most of humanity and sadistically manipulated a group of people into letting an equally manipulated person sacrifice them 1,684 times. Yikes.

As our game starts, the 1,685th Rite is beginning, with the "Use demonic monsters to wipe out a third of humanity" thing proceeding as planned.

Amon, under his Bachs guise and with his emotionless assistant Lessica at his side (Lessica is actually made from a part of Amon himself), summons our hero Darwin, alongside his best friends Orlando and Marie (The latter of whom he is in love with) and several strangers, and ultimately, Darwin is chosen to be the Nominator.

After several adventures with those chosen to be Pillars, Li Hua, Araki, Conor, and Marie, one of which involves walking through the child Conor's blood-soaked, butchered hometown (Ya' know, that "human element"!), Darwin is forced to slowly sacrifice (Read: Kill) each Pillar, with each one having accepted their fate by the time you pick them. Note that Darwin at first vehemently refused to hurt anyone....until Amon in his Bachs form began torturously beating Marie, after which he constantly uses the threat of more torture for Marie to keep Darwin's "head in the game".

After sacrificing Marie, the final Pillar, Darwin is offered a choice by Lessica, who has herself slowly grown close to these Pillars in particular: Try to revive his friends by dueling Neron in a practical suicide mission, or let his friends stay dead to ensure Neron stays sealed.

If Darwin (Read: The player) picks the latter (WUSS!), he is summarily soul-stoled and brainwashed, after which Amon sends his Horsemen to once more cleanse the Earth, after which he will send Darwin to tell tales of the Rite and of Amon, until that time for cleansing rolls around once more, as it shall go for all eternity.....

BUT, if Darwin has a heart and chooses to fight Neron and try to save his friends, Lessica will assist him in dueling Neron to the death, rescuing Darwin's friends but resulting in both Neron and Darwin's deaths in the process.

Luckily, Neron uses the last of his energy to reveal that "Yo bro, I AIN'T the villain of this piece", states that he deeply cares for humanity unlike Amon, and, using the last of his strength, he transfers his Sopia (Life force, if you remember) into Darwin to both revive the boy, and give him a power boost.

As Darwin and his group learn the truth about Amon and Neron from Lessica, they finally go to take on Amon himself.

When confronted by the group and Lessica's betrayal and emotions, Amon annoyingly states he supposes he should have seen it coming, as if you "Lay with dogs, you'll rise up with fleas", and that once he's done with Darwin, he will rip out those emotions and memories from Lessica and once more turn her back into his "Daughter" once more.

Lessica goes on to sacrifice herself to force Amon into the physical plane where he can be injured, and, though tormenting Lessica and screaming his superiority, Amon is finally beaten and killed for good by Darwin and his power boost from Neron.

Lessica dies, though happily for getting the chance to feel like a real person for once and save her friends, and the Earth, though one third less populated, will never have to face fear of annihilation ever again, and our heroic group go their separate ways to live their lives, no doubt happily every after.

Freudian Excuse or moral agency issues?

Absolutely none to be seen. From what we are shown/told, Amon and Neron are cut from the same cloth, both being entities of immense power who are kept powerful and alive by belief, but whereas Neron shows genuine care for other forms of life, Amon is just a petty narcissist with a god complex.

As for "Keeping people believing in him to sustain himself"....no. This isn't sympathetic or redeeming at ALL. Amon openly despises humans and takes great joy out of hurting and manipulating them, and even more so when they worship him, so while his primary motive is life prolongation, his extra motives of arrogance and sadism completely override any possible sympathy there.

The fact that Lessica, explicitly made from Amon's being, shows moral agency is another point in the favor of "THE PRICK COULD STOP BUT JUST DOESN'T!"

Redeeming features?

Once again, none. Amon in his Bachs disguise sometimes lets the Pillars do things like check on their families or allow them extra time before they are sacrificed, which at the moment could come off as "Bachs" genuinely petting the dog.

....until the end where "Bachs"/Amon is revealed to only allow stuff like that to transpire so as to make the stories his controlled Nominators go on to tell even more emotional and tragic sounding. Diabolical....

Heinousness?

Across the games, Amon is easily the worst. The Eldritch Abomination of the first game has a higher attempted bodycount, but nothing in the way of extra sadism or some such. Cyllis of Omega isn't particularly heinous herself.

Amon, meanwhile? A psychopathic god who routinely "cleanses" to Earth of billions of people while forcing select people to sacrifice their friends and lvoed ones under the BS illusion that it is saving the planet, all while framing Neron for the evil acts and keeping locked away in a Fate Worse than Death.

Final Verdict?

Yeeeeaaaaah.....pretty nasty dude here. Definitely one of my worst ones. Keeper.

edited 21st Jun '17 11:41:05 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#87687: Jun 22nd 2017 at 1:29:31 AM

Alright, I requested the change for Sutekh.

Abstaining on Lester.

Ooh, I have Operation A.I.M.! God, it's been like 15-20 years! I'll give a [tup] to that MODOK, with a couple of questions:

  • Is he actually called MODOK 1.5?
  • Would Strucker from the previous book count? I also read that, and I can't recall him being TERRIBLY heinous.

[tup] Amon.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#87688: Jun 22nd 2017 at 2:51:29 AM

[tup] to Dr. Edgar Malbarn, Modok 1.5 and Amon.

Okay, taking a momentary break from the Wild Wild West candidates (I think I have at least one more potential, but I need to do more research), I recently remembered someone from another show I used to watch who may qualify. The show in question being Supernatural.

Now I know this board has a general consensus that the heinous standard of that show is simply too high for there to be any more qualifiers at the present (and with good reason, when Monsters of the Week kill numerous people per episode, and recurring threats kill by the bus load, it does quickly get pretty high), however I think I may I have found one exception.

Okay first a little context, in the shows Seventh season, Sam and Dean’s beloved mentor and second father Bobby Singer was shot dead by the Season’s Big Bad Dick Roman, king of the leviathans. As it was revealed in the later part of the season, Bobby had in fact not past on as everyone expected, but opted to stay behind as ghost to help the brothers more (this eventually proved to be a big mistake).

While honestly season seven was when the cracks started to show, overall it did mean the writers got to explore the dynamics of how ghost worked in depth, which leads us to the episode in question “Of Grave Importance” and our candidate for today, Whitman Van Ness.

Who is he:

In the early 1900’s Whitman was a rich man who lost all his money, and thus let his manor house turn into a brothel. Officially Whitman was a good man who took pity upon the local convict Dexter O’Connor hiring him to work as a caretaker. However Dexter turned out to be a violent Serial Killer who murdered several of the prostitutes, before killing Whitman’s bride upon the eve of their wedding night and leading to Dexter being shot in the house and Whitman committing suicide.

But as it turns out that was a lie, and in reality Whitman was the killer, while Dexter was a kind-hearted but not too bright fella, who Whitman used as a scapegoat. It was Whitman who killed all the woman and his own bride.

After death, Whitman’s spirit stayed within his house, along with the ghosts of Dexter and several of his victims. Now inverse ghost have the problem that over time they decay, they lose their sanity and are doomed to just repeat patterns set up in their life or by their death.

However, Whitman proved to be an incredibly powerful spirit, and discovered that by feeding off the others spirits (which effectively destroys them) he could spare himself for the decay, enabling himself to remain strong and sane (or at least as sane as your average murderous psychopath that is) whilest they decayed.

What does he do:

Over the decades, to ensure he kept up his powers, Whitman continued to murder numerous people who entered his house, accumulating more and more victims for him feed off of, with many others spare. Once he killed them, he used his power to ensure their souls couldn’t leave his house and then hid their bodies in a hidden chamber, thus making certain they would never pass on.

In the present, old friend of Sam, Dean and Bobby, Annie Hawkins was investigating the case of the Whitman Van Ness house, having got a mysterious tip on her phone. Her arrival accidentally caused two teenagers, Debbie and Dudley, who were making out outside of it to run inside. They were confronted by Dexter, who tried to scare them away, but it was too late and Whitman murdered them.

Coming into investigate; Annie was ambushed by Van Ness who killed her and added her to his collection.

Upon arriving in town, Sam and Dean quickly realised something was wrong when Annie never showed up, and took over working the case. Bobby meanwhile who was bound to an old flask he used to own was also dragged along, but at this point Sam and Dean still didn’t know Bobby’s spirit hadn’t past on.

Arriving in the house, Bobby discovered the place was literally full of ghosts (I mean full to the bursting, there were dozens if not more ghosts trapped within this place). He also met up with Annie, and witnessed Van Ness warning Dexter not to try what he did the previous night again.

They also meet Heskel Crane, who Whitman stabbed in the back in the 1930’s (though he doesn’t tell them it was him), who teaches Bobby a few tricks on how being a ghost works, he also shows them what happens when ghosts really decay, revealing a series of animalistic rotted spirits who have nothing of their original selves left, but must still carry on. A process Heskel sadly admits is inevitable for all of them; the challenge is seeing how long they can hold on to their humanity, he presently being on eighty years.

Bobby and Annie are also approached by Victoria Dodd, one of the original murdered victims who Annie realised was the voice they brought her into this case, and she asks them to free her. But before she can reveal any details Sam and Dean leave dragging Bobby with them.

That night Bobby manages to use what he learned from Heskel to inform Sam and Dean of his presence, and warn them that Annie is trapped within the house. Meanwhile, two friends of Debbie and Dudley, Brain and Jesse break into the house to film a video to warn others never to go into the Van Ness house…yeah.

Again Dexter tries to scare them away, but he is stopped by Whitman. Brain and Jesse try to thank him, but Whitman just reaches inside of them and crushes their hearts, killing them instantly. Dexter confronts Whitman, pointing out he already has so many victims and that he doesn’t need to kill anymore. At which point Whitman drains Dexter, destroying him.

Annie who witnessed the entire events tries to grab the Camera, hoping to use it to inform the others of the truth, but she can’t touch it. She is interrupted by Victoria, who reveals the truth that it was Whitman who slit her throat all those years ago and framed Dexter. And that he keeps all the spirits trapped in this house to feed him, and as amusement.

Annie tries to convince Victoria to help as having had nearly a hundred years practice, she is a lot more powerful than Annie could dream to be (while still being nothing compared to Whitman) but she is too afraid of what Whitman will do to her. Annie manages to convince her that her friends can destroy Whitman, thus freeing her and the others.

Whitman returns to take Brian and Jesse’s bodies, causing them both to hide. Convincing Victoria to help, she appears before Sam and Dean (who following Bobby’s warnings have returned to the house) to inform them of what is really going on. However, before she can finish, Whitman burns her bones forcing her to disappear (its confirmed in the next season that doing so forces ghosts to move on to the afterlife, but at the time it was ambiguous if it did that or simply destroyed them).

Sam and Dean leave to go destroy Whitman’s body in the cemetery, and thus put an end to his reign of terror. However, Whitman secretly slips a key that belonged to him into their pocket, thus allowing him to leave the house, while Bobby who already managed to remove his flask is now trapped in the house.

Whilst their driving to Whitman’s mausoleum, he takes control of the Impala and tries to crash but Dean manages to get back control just in time to stop. Whitman then personally tries to strangle them, but finding the key, Dean destroys it, forcing Whitman back to the house. Meanwhile Bobby and Annie manage to find Whitman’s secret chamber, and try to burn the bodies and thus free his victims. However, Whitman returns at this point, the two manage to get down stairs, but Whitman simply teleports in front of them. Enraged by their meddling, he tries to drain Bobby.

But at this point Sam and Dean, salt and burn his bones, thus ending Whitman and saving Bobby. Afterwards, they do the same to all his victims, freeing them from the house.

Freudian Excuse or any redeeming traits:

Whitman’s only real excuse is that he lost all his money, and had his family home turned into a brothel, then later a speakeasy. None of which comes close to justifying his countless murders. Now most ghosts don’t qualify, as I said the process of being a ghost causes them to decay and thus lose any moral agency. Whitman doesn’t count as this, as he specifically uses other spirits to stop himself decaying.

The only suggestion he doesn’t have all his faculties in check is right before he tries to drain Bobby, he angrily shouts at them that they have abused his hospitality. However, this is probably more egotism and a belief that the spirits should be happy to spend all eternity trapped in his home, slowly decaying so they can ensure he never has to.

While him not wanting to decay is understandable, he not only was an evil man in life, but in show you have to choose to be a ghost. While most have the excuse of being blinded by anger or a desire for revenge, due to the circumstances of their demise Whitman killed himself, then chose to stay and decided he didn’t want to have to face the consequences of his choices preferring to make others suffer.

It’s also acknowledged and demonstrated he clearly didn’t need to kill all those people just to feed off of, as his house is literally full of ghosts. Victoria states he simply enjoys having the power over them.

Heinous Standard:

Now Whitman does come up a bit short compared to the shows present four monsters. But we have to take resources into account her, Whitman’s not a demon or an archdemon like Lilith, Allister and Abbadon.

And as I've already said Dick Roman was king of the Leviathans, who while somewhat underwhelming, did push Nigh-Invulnerability to the brink of actually Invulnerable, and have an army of lovecraftian horrors at his beck and call.

Whitman by contrast is simply a ghost.

A very powerful ghost sure, but the guy still suffers the limitations that come with being a ghost, namely he’s trapped in his house. Except for when he has something else to latch onto outside of it, he can never leave.

He is likewise a Monster of the Week, whereas all the other qualifiers were either the season’s Big Bad or their dragon.

He still never the less managed to kill dozens, if not just under a hundred of people and imprisoned their souls within his house to rot, all to keep him strong.

It is true that as ghosts go Whitman is what’s considered a violent spirit (basically the worst type of ghost, as they were evil and dangerous in life and carry on being in death) which in show does include a few serial killers (some particularly nasty ones at that) but with them the majority of their kills are in their backstory and off screen.

Whitman spent over a hundred years killing and imprisoning people. As such I think he stands out.

Now I've heard (I’ve only watched up to season ten of this series,) that their was a later ghost who had a similar MO with children he killed. However from the sounds of it he doesn't count as he excuse that his daughters death drove him insane and his killings happened after death, when he had already lost his moral agency.

Likewise by sheer number of victims Whitman has him beat.

Off Stage Villainy:

Not a problem. We only see him kill two victims onscreen, but we see the ghosts and the bodies of all his victims. And as I’ve already said, there are a lot.

We also see him draining ghosts on screen.

Conclusion:

As a monster of the week, Whitman has an incredibly high body count, none of the excuses that other ghost have and a near unique MO.

edited 22nd Jun '17 4:35:34 AM by MGD107

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#87689: Jun 22nd 2017 at 4:28:09 AM

[tup] Malbarn, Modok 1.5, and Amon.

I personally don't think it's worth it to EP the pre-existing C Ms in these Marvel books unless they are portrayed differently from the mainstream continuity. If the books are trying to seem like they're in continuity then I don't see much point in writing the likes of Strucker and Carnage up if they act just like their canon selves. It would seem sorta redundant to me.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#87690: Jun 22nd 2017 at 5:08:14 AM

[tup] Whitman

I say go for it with the other Marvel novel baddies.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#87691: Jun 22nd 2017 at 5:37:57 AM

[tup] Whitman and Amon

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#87692: Jun 22nd 2017 at 5:43:11 AM

Eh, Whitman seems like a [tup]

BTW, can you (or anyone else) expand Alastair's entry? It mentions torturing Dean and a few murders, but the other torture is basically glossed over.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#87693: Jun 22nd 2017 at 7:13:06 AM

Most Ax-Crazy? That's hard. Frank Booth, any version of The Joker, Sgt. Barnes, Ramsay Bolton, the list goes on...

edited 22nd Jun '17 7:14:37 AM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#87694: Jun 22nd 2017 at 7:14:56 AM

Most Ax-Crazy? Kefka Palazzo or The Joker probably.

edited 22nd Jun '17 7:16:37 AM by ReynTime250

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#87695: Jun 22nd 2017 at 7:34:13 AM

I'm not sure if I could recommend a cut, and I hate to do this to a Transformers CM, but I don't think Pharma can be considered a Complete Monster. Before his death, he was able to pass through Tyrest's guilt detecting forcefield. Which means, even though it was hidden under over 50-layers of Ax-Crazy, he does feel guilt for the stuff that he's done. Which would mean he can't qualify as a CM, as even though he never voices his guilt, it's undoubtedly there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87696: Jun 22nd 2017 at 7:44:56 AM

Well, that is something...Ravok, Psyche? What say you?

I'm also really not sure about Whitman. He's bad but Supernatural has a lot of nasty monsters of the week. Yes to Amon.

edited 22nd Jun '17 7:45:16 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#87697: Jun 22nd 2017 at 8:07:08 AM

Thing with Whitman...it seems like his victims are in an And I Must Scream state. How common is that?

And I ask again...Alastair's entry seems...to be missing something.

Here's a lovely quote from Malbarn:

" I am sick, deranged, sadistic, and insane. And you know what? I enjoy every second of it."

edited 22nd Jun '17 8:09:10 AM by ACW

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#87698: Jun 22nd 2017 at 8:16:44 AM

Whitman... that's odd. Most Complete Monsters kill their victims instead of And I Must Scream.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#87699: Jun 22nd 2017 at 8:20:51 AM

[up] Most yes, but it's not uncommon (D'Arby and AM (both versions) come to mind).

edited 22nd Jun '17 8:21:20 AM by ACW

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013

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