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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#87503: Jun 19th 2017 at 5:06:25 PM

[up]Just. Stop.

We are a clean-up thread. We are not here to answer questions like this. Go read the subpages if you want answers to questions like that.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#87504: Jun 19th 2017 at 5:22:41 PM

Devastation like this doesn't happen everyday.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#87505: Jun 19th 2017 at 5:29:21 PM

... What the hell did I just miss?

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#87506: Jun 19th 2017 at 5:30:53 PM

[up]Looks like one of the posters wanted to discuss a less-than-savory work and got banned for it.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#87509: Jun 19th 2017 at 5:36:19 PM

I trimmed down WRS' entry by a lot, though I'm still afraid that it's still too big.

edited 19th Jun '17 5:43:24 PM by JRads47

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#87510: Jun 19th 2017 at 6:16:47 PM

Queen Chrysalis from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic may not reach the heinous standard, but this incarnation of the character might...

What is the work?

My Little Portal is a fan animated cross over of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and Portal. It stars Twilight Sparkle, who wakes up in Celestia Laboratories, with no idea who she is or way she's there. To make matters worse, a rouge A.I. named DISCoRD has taken over the lab. In episode 5, Twilight drinks a "flashback time potion" to see what to happened to Equestria, specifically the Fall of Canterlot.

Who is she?

Queen Chrysalis, like her original incarnation, is the queen of the Changlings. Unlike her original incarnation, this version is far more ruthless and sadistic.

What did she do?

After sending a rather sadistic Changling scout to the outskirts of Canterlot, resulting in the crippling of Fluttershy, Chrysalis begins an invasion of Canterlot. A brutal battle between the ponies and Changlings ensue, resulting in many deaths on both sides. At first the Changlings have the advantage, and begin pushing back Canterlot's guards. Thankfully, Rainbow Dash and her platoon of robot sentries are deployed and turn the tide. They begin to wipe out the Changling forces, when Chrysalis hears of the casualties, she blows them off, more enraged that her general's forces haven't taken the castle yet. Her general then sends aerial reinforcements to take out Rainbow Dash, but when two are shot down in the process, she dismisses them as pathetic. When the rest of the reinforcements are wiped out by Dash, she strangles her general to death for the failure. After which she orders a march towards the castle, stating any wounded Changlings would be left for dead. Afterwards, one of the sentries tries to attack Chrysalis, but she catches it midair with her magic before brutally ripping it in half (No, the fact that it was a robot doesn't lessen the brutality). Moving in to the castle herself, Chysalis confronts Twilight and Princess Luna in the throne room. Just then, Celestia and Cadence (Who witnessed the attack from outside of Canterlot) burst into the room to join them. After blaming Celestia for the suffering of her species, she turns her attention to Cadence, not to happy to see the mare who ruined her plans the first time. When Shining Armor arrives to defend his wife, she uses her magic to rip his heart out, right in front of Cadence and Twilight no less. She then grabs Spike, and taunts Twilight with the possibilities of making him her pet, or torturing the baby dragon while she is Forced to Watch. When an enraged Celestia challenges her to a Duel to the Death, Chrysalis gladly excepts, but not before tossing Twilight and Spike out of a nearby window, though both manage to survive. After a short battle, Celestia gets the upper hand and has Chrysalis at her mercy, to which the Changling Queen then begs for her life. Unfortunately, Twilight burst in, determined to help the princess in taking down Chrysalis, only to be a distraction for Celestia. Not hesitating to use said distraction, Chrysalis disguises herself and Celestia as each other, causing Twilight to mistakenly impale and kill Celestia with her horn. While Twilight is reeling after what she just did, Chrysalis mocks Twilight, and then proceeds to pin her to the ground and rip off her wings, then leaving her to bleed to death.

Freudian Excuse of mitigating factors?

No Freudian Excuse. However, she does have a mitigating factor in the form of an illness I like to call Cinder syndrome, that's when a character has the capacity to be a Complete Monster, but the story isn't finished yet. But since RWBY isn't even close to being over, yet Cinder still got the rights to be a CM, I thought I might as well give this a shot.

Heinous Standard?

The only other villains in this are DISCoRD, a rouge A.I. that kills a few ponies, but not to this extent. Their is also Sombra, who spends most of his first appearance riding Chrysalis for her lack of pragmatism. Chrysalis is nothing more than a bloodthirsty Sadist, who ruined the lives of most of the main cast.

Conclusion?

Difficult to say, I know the story isn't finished or if she'll even qualify. But hey, at least I tried.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87511: Jun 19th 2017 at 6:20:01 PM

[up] Well, it ain't pointless darkfic, and sounds like she manages to count. I'd just caution you if the fic has her arc close to over.

Writeups:

  • Wonder Woman: General Erich Ludendorff demonstrates that even in a world of gods and monsters, some humans can be the most evil beings around. A ruthless German general in World War 1 who believes in continuing the war, Ludendorff executes a man simply for complaining supplies are low and encourages the inhumane research of Isabelle "Dr. Poison" Moru, testing her gasses on live subjects. When he encounters his high command who wish to sign an armistice, Ludendorff gasses them as well, but throws in a single gas mask, well aware it will do nothing to stop the gas. Ludendorff later tests the gas even further on a civilian village and when he engages Diana herself in a battle to the death, he is in the process of having the gas loaded into a plane to subject all of London to a horrible death.

  • The Deal: Gang-Chun is a Serial Killer known for ambushing women and murdering them with power tools, his final victim being the sister of the hero Tae-Soo. Gang-Chun refuses to reveal where he buried the majority of his victims just to hurt the families more, and spends the next few years comfortably in prison. When his final victim's husband Seung-hyun hires a man to attack him in prison, Gang-Chun viciously tortures the man and later murders several guards before Seung-hyun abducts him to make Gang-Chun reveal where he buried the bodies. Gang-Chn takes advantage of the opportunity to murder him, before attempting to kill Tae-Soo as well.

  • Gormenghast: The vicious sociopath Steerpike, once a kitchen boy who rises to become of the most powerful figures in Gormenghast. Steerpike sets fire to Earl Sepulchrave Groan's beloved library, resulting in the Earl's insanity and eventual suicide, setting himself up as a hero who rescued everyone else within. Steerpike burns the master of ritual, Barquentine, to death to steal his position and steadily either discredits or murders those who stand in his path while also seducing Fuchsia Groan, plotting to dispose of her as well. Steerpike kills Sepulchrave's twin sisters by sealing them in a room and leaving them to starve, murdering the former servant Flay when he and Young Earl Titus catch Steerpike gloating to the corpses years later. Escaping into the castle, Steerpike decides to destroy everyone he can if he cannot rule the castle. Described as having forsaken any conscience he might once had possessed, Steerpike will lie, cheat and murder, stopping at nothing to claim power he feels should be his.

  • Headshot: Mr. Lee, the Sea Devil, also known as the Father From Hell, is introduced escaping from prison by massacring a group of police officers and prison guards, sacrificing his loyal gang members to do so. A vicious pirate, Lee is known for slaughtering those he finds while abducting groups of children. Lee then forces the children into a well for days or weeks without food or water, in the sweltering heat until he throws down a bottle of water and watches the children fight to the death. The survivor is then raised by Lee as his child and eventual member of his gang. When his treacherous 'son', Abdi, later named Ishmael, betrays him and resurfaces with amnesia, Lee sends his men to capture Ishmael, and to massacre whoever stands in their path, resulting in massive amounts of bloodshed and death. When he and Ishmael finally engage in a duel tot he death, Lee even attempts to use the last of his energy to try to drag Ishmael to death with him out of spite.

edited 19th Jun '17 6:27:19 PM by Lightysnake

JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#87512: Jun 19th 2017 at 6:25:34 PM

[up]The "A" and "ruthless" in Ludendorff's entry need to be seperated.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#87513: Jun 19th 2017 at 6:35:44 PM

[tup] To Dr. Death, Willikers, Seiji, Heydrich, Gang-Chun, Johny D and Captain

[tdown] To Stanley, Dracula, Chrysalis and Bremmer.

Anyway, Ravok talked about Marvel novels from the 70s a couple of weeks ago and that made me remember the Marvel 90s that I read when I was younger.

Now these are trickier to evaluate because they made some attempts to adhere to Marvel continuity at the time (though they pretended the clone saga was not going on at the time), so you have a Daredevil novel set right after Born Again, a Thunderbolts/Avengers novel that refers to events in the comics and the candidate I am about to propose has his story take place right after the death of Gwen Stacy.

So I am not sure that established monsters who appear in the novels like Carnage, Bullseye, Mr. Sinister, Baron Strucker, etc are unique enough from their comic book counterparts to discuss, though they have their own crimes unique to the novels, Baron Strucker takes a clean energy source and turns it into a death ray, Mr. Sinister plans to commit genocide against mutants because he feels they are no longer needed in his world that will contain his own super humans and Carnage kills a bunch of people and tries to spike soup at a homeless food drive with chemicals that drive people insane. I could propose them if they are considered unique enough.

However the novels do veer away from the comics at points, there is new intelligence group called "SAFE" that only exists in the novels and a villain named the Gentleman is responsible for the death of Peter Parker's parents. I think fans and comic book writers would not consider the novels cannon, which is a kinda a shame, the novels even managed to make a D-list loser like Trapster compelling.

However they are a couple of new villains who may be worth discussing, I have a couple, I will start with one from a short story from the Untold Tales of Spider-Man novel anthology, so he may not as strong as a villain who has a whole novel to do evil deeds, but I think he is worth discussing:

Who is the Rooftop Ripper? What has he done?

The Rooftop Ripper is the main villain of the short story "Deadly Force", he is a serial killer who targets young blonde women. His M.O is to kidnap them, torture them until their bodies are broken bloody pulps and then throw them off of a roof top.

Now this story takes place right after the death of Gwen Stacy, so Spidey is pretty angry. However by the time he finds the Ripper, he is exhausted and emotionally is not a good place.

The Ripper mocks Spidey, saying he already killed a woman earlier tonight (and describes in detail how he murders his victims) , but if he defeats Spidey, he will kill another, just to mock Spidey for his failure. In this less then perfect state, Spidey lets his emotions blind him and doesn't fight intelligently. The Ripper is both super strong and a skilled fighter, so he manages to defeat this weakened Spidey. Spidey later wakes up and finds a dead blonde woman draped on his body. The Ripper has brutalized her and has even kept some of her body parts as trophies.

Spidey is in a bad place and considers using deadly force against the Ripper.

Spidey meets with a police officer at the scene of another murder, where a blonde woman is again ripped to shreds. The officer says this is the third victim this week (the Ripper has been active for at least a couple of weeks, fitting a pattern).

Spidey sees someone who looks like the Ripper attacking a blonde woman (the Ripper wears a ski mask and leather jacket). Spidey attacks him brutally, breaking his arm, however that was not the Ripper, it was just a purse snatcher. Spidey, horrified about what he has done, vows to bring the Ripper, without using lethal force.

The Ripper grabs another blonde woman and takes her to a roof top. Spidey confronts him and the Ripper decides he will start ripping the woman apart and throwing the body parts at him. Spidey manages to save the woman (she is knocked out) and because he is well rested and in a better place emotionally, fights intelligently and has the Ripper on the ropes. The Ripper breaks away and throws the woman from the roof, trying to get away from Spidey. Spidey saves the woman and defeats the Ripper.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

This is the tricky part. I am not sure what metric we judge the Ripper by, just the other novels or the comics, but either way its tough competition.

Even leaving aside the comics, in these novels Dr. Octopus tried to nuke most of the world, Hobgoblin tried to nuke New York, Carnage murdered random people and tried to drive people insane at a homeless food drive.

However, despite a lower body count, I think the Ripper should get points for brutality, he doesn't just murder these women, he brutalizes and tortures them, then murders them, it takes more time to do that then simply just stabbing or shooting a group of people. Time is a resource as well, the Ripper uses his to brutalize and torture a smaller group of victims, rather then trying to go on a spree and quick kill a bunch of people. He also fits a serial killer pattern (he was active for weeks before Spidey confronted him) and would likely just continue to murder blonde women for as long as he could.

I would argue Ripper's M.O makes more heinous then a lot of Spidey's villains, like Electro, Sandman, Rhino and Shocker who are just thieves with the occasional heinous act.

There some new villains in the novel series that are less heinous, there was a crime boss named Tyler Stewart who framed Spidey for murder, but besides that, just did generic crime boss stuff and in the same anthology there was a villain named Impact who gained powers by enhanced steroids and committed robberies to provide for his family.

The Ripper also only has his strength and skill as resources, otherwise he is a total loner with no real resources.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming factors?

Ha!

Final Verdict?

I am not sure, he may count, depending if you find he meets the heinous standard of the Spidey universe.

Edit: Also sorry for the long preamble, but I felt the continuity issues needed some in depth explaining.

edited 19th Jun '17 7:35:57 PM by Overlord

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#87514: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:01:38 PM

[tdown] on Chrysalis. Having done a little research on this. I feel this is a case where the fanwork is too much darker than the source material. My Little Portal contains graphic imagery which wouldn't be allowed in the main series. Characters are gored to death, riped apart, and the whole series feels like a dark fic to be honest. Not to mention, Chrysalis rips out Shining Armor's heart and snaps off Twilight's wings with visible bones. None of that stuff would ever fly in MLP: FIM.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#87515: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:06:36 PM

[up] I don't know why people insist on making grim dark fics about MLP. There are tons of works that are better suited for that.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#87516: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:23:51 PM

MLP isn't the only popular series getting plenty of Dark Fics either, I've seen pleanty for The Loud House. Mind you they're mostly sad/deconstruction fics, and I haven't read any that I'd say fall into the Grimdark category, have a Serial Killer antagonist or anything like that (although I saw a description for one, but don't plan on reading it).

But as for the topic at hand [tup] the Rooftop Ripper and [tdown] on Crysalis.

edited 19th Jun '17 7:24:53 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#87517: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:26:32 PM

If her arc isn't over in the fanfic, it's too early to discuss. Already leaning towards yes, otherwise, though.

Shadow?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#87519: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:33:01 PM

[tup] the Ripper. Considering the fact that he basically has nothing in terms of resources, I think he just barely makes the cut. Abstaining on Chrysalis because of the dark fic issue as well as the fact that her arc is apparently unfinished.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#87520: Jun 19th 2017 at 7:43:09 PM

I've been busy today and tomorrow so I'll probably that Rune Scape thing Wednesday.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#87522: Jun 19th 2017 at 8:37:43 PM

I want to add a few more crimes to Vladimir Makarov from Modern Warfare. I want to mention the fact that in many cases, he was attacking his own people.

  • Vladimir Makarov started off as just an ordinary Russian soldier serving Zakhaev, but by the third game has become something far, far, worse. The Big Bad of the second and third games, Makarov establishes himself in the second game when he and his men cold-heartedly slaughter an airport terminal full of Russian civilians, using the Player Character trying to infiltrate Makarov’s group. He then follows this by shooting the player in the head so that the crime can be placed on the CIA, thus inciting the international community against the Americans and triggering a Russo-American war. In the third game, he hijacks the Russian president to derail his peace talk and get the nuclear launch codes so he can nuke Europe and conquer it. When the president resists, he targets his daughter to break him. He then bombed major cities across Europe with chemical weapons before invading them, massacring millions of people and single-handedly starting World War III. In addition, it was he who ordered the nuking in the first game, as well as the one who even earlier saved Zakhaev, thus making him responsible, directly or indirectly, for all the events of the series (including the actions of General Shepherd in the second game), leading to the deaths of several millions.

edited 19th Jun '17 8:53:17 PM by Wuz

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#87523: Jun 19th 2017 at 9:25:43 PM

And I'm home. Exhausted... yes to the Rooftop Ripper, put Chrysalis on the wait-and-see, and I approve of Makarov's extended writeup.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#87525: Jun 19th 2017 at 11:30:00 PM

It's been a nightmare as far as workload went at my startup. No matter, got some time now so I can get the draft for Jacob Anton Ness out of the way.

  • Jacob Anton Ness is a noted economics professor from the University of Ithaca. He is also known as Poseidon, a narcissistic deep-cover CIA agent who serves as the Big Bad of Prison Break's 2017 revival. Revealed to be The Man Behind the Man of the Direct-to-Video movie The Final Break, he tries to press Michael Scofield into faking his death and joining his rogue cell 21 Void by threatening to imprison Michael's family and friends for life without parole. When Michael initially refuses, Jacob has Michael's pregnant wife Sara Scofield incarcerated for Christina Scofield's death. After Michael is forced to fake his death, Jacob enslaves him into breaking out terrorists and rogue agents who act against America's interests. Knowing Michael would eventually betray him, Jacob kills CIA Deputy Chief Harlan Gaines and frames Michael for Gaines' death before he leaves him to die in Yemen's Ogygia prison. Over the next four years, he erases Michael's identity and marries his wife. During this time he proceeds to gaslight her into believing Michael is dead, going as far as framing Kellerman for hacking her phone after he has him killed and hiring his henchmen A&W and Van Gogh to terrorize her and Michael's son Mike before having the henchmen imprisoned to prove Jacob's "innocence." When she finds out Jacob is indeed Poseidon, he kidnaps Mike and Sara and tricks Mike into teaching him how to draw maps in the shapes of child-like drawings, all while planning to have Michael and Sara trapped and killed in a vacation home. When they escape the home, Jacob abducts Mike and brainwashes him into believing that Sara died in the house and that Michael is a terrorist named Kaniel Outis.

edited 20th Jun '17 12:30:13 AM by sanfranman91


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