During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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I think yes, if a work is never going to be released in the US or at least doesn't look like it will, you can EP that. However, if the work is confirmed to be released in the US, than we have to wait.
I also feel that we have to take popularity into consideration; for example if a work was released only in... say Slovakia and we happen to have a Slovakian user, he can EP a villain from the work. If the work though is something that is released internationally, especially when it is popular and anticipated, than we go only by the US release date.
edited 16th Jun '17 8:42:12 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
to the Wonder Woman version of Ludendorff. He easily passes the DC film heinous standard and then some, but I did hesitate for a bit given that oddly endearing moment he shares with Maru in their second scene that in combination with her loyalty to him hints at a genuine Villainous Friendship between the two. Though I also agree with someone else a page or two back who pointed out that from his end it's equally valid to see it as Ludendorff just turning up the charm to motivate his most useful ally. Anything more substantial in their relationship is buried too far between the lines.
And obviously
to both Maru and Ares for Undying Loyalty and Utopia Justifies the Means respectively.
edited 16th Jun '17 12:01:52 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Thoughts on this
? Morgenthaler, I know you're one of our main 2000 AD guys.
There are a bunch of different continuities including the IDW one. The ones who are written up right now are from the "main" one that started in 1977.
But I'd really hesitate to say any of the other Dark Judges would qualify though. Sure, they're all pure evil, but since Judge Death is their undisputed leader in all continuities he easily comes across as the worst among them. Recent prequel stories have emphasized this more and more.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I'm feeling bad for playing Devi's Advocate yet again, but I vote
for Ludendorff.
Mainly because I'm honestly sick of all those evil german stereotype villains and because I find Historical Villain Upgrade characters in incredibly bad taste.
edited 16th Jun '17 9:19:16 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianNot much of a point really since they're from different continuities. Though maybe the fact that Death has exterminated all but three of the other Dark Judges might be (basically, he got pissed off that almost none of them were truly Lawful Evil).
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"![]()
People have downvoted characters for finding them in bad taste for basically forever here. Remember Ox Baker?
One way or the other, I'm outvoted either way, so it doesn't really matter if I vote down or abstain.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianI remember we had an evil version of God come through a couple months ago some people openly abstained from due to, you know, Adaptational Villainy of a widely worshiped figure. Ambar abstained on TDKSA Lex and Brainiac because Frank Miller is an awful person. But neither occasion had people voting these proposals down because the characters clearly count by our standards.
Hell, I abstained from a character from Narutaru because they didn't count, but were so disgusting I could not bring myself to voting down, even when I could not vote up.
I suppose, however, disliking HVU characters is not unlike rejecting villains from torture porn or crappy creepypastas...
You know what? Go ahead. I've changed my mind while writing this, which was at first intended to say I oppose your attitude.
Hell, I abstained on Peter "Mort" Mortimer because it seemed like an Ass Pull, and even abstained on the GI Joe film baddies because Channing Tatum as Duke is terrible casting.
I still think Luthor (or Alex) can count.
Unless he gets even worse in a future film and does something that flies in the face of his very sufficient, psychology-impacting Freudian Excuse, then no, he cannot and will not count. Sorry.
I'm fine with Max!Bullseye getting cut, but I personally still don't really buy that scene as being truly mitigating. He has this glazed, unemotional look on his face the whole time he's rambling to Mrs Fisk about "the dreams" and so on, and keeps it by the time the scene ends only now he's smiling instead of not-smiling. The context of how he steered this talk is also important because he starts off by telling Fisk to abandon her murderous vendetta and go find another life for herself, but by the end his exact question to her is if she understands that feeling of entering the murderer's life that he'd just described to her and her answer is that she doesn't, and that answer gets Bullseye satisfied enough to drop the matter and walk away after stating he's glad to have had this talk. Mrs. Fisk's last response didn't answer whether or not she'd go through with killing, it just established that she didn't understand all that Bullseye just described and was thus completely unprepared for what she'd be getting into were she to go through with it. The possibility of her self-destruction as a person was still left hanging but now Bullseye was taking some pleasure in it because it amuses him. I know others will see it differently but to me it reads less like a sincere "don't do this" and more like Shira-esuqe manipulation and messing with someone's head.
Actually, there's a specific version of God that I wish I *could* qualify just for how much of a loathsome, egotistical, manipulative, petty, and genocidal cad he turns out to be (from the Franco comic The Great Power of Chninkel), but several in-story factors prevent it.
edited 16th Jun '17 9:58:36 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Well yeah, thanks, now that you mention it Polar, I feel kind of hypocritical now since I was always one of the people criticizing others for rejecting candidates from works like Human Centipede or Serbian Film out of disgust for the work.
Guess now I can relate to their way of thinking more and I will certainly keep quiet from now on when it comes to those matters^^
edited 16th Jun '17 10:03:11 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
for the cliched Nazi General from WWI / Supervillain aka Ludendorff. Not to most interesting or creative villain but defiantly one that deserves to be called a Complete Monster.
to Poison. While she is a cruel women who went along with all of Ludendorff’s plans, he clearly surpasses her in evilness. She’s still alive, however, which means that she could return for a second movie. So I’ve got the feeling that there will be another discussion about her in few years.
to Areas. The worst he did in the movie was whispering ideas into the ears of Ludendorff and Poison. These ideas results in Poison creating her deadly gas and Ludendorff betraying his own country so that he could continue to war, but neither of them was controlled or corrupted by Areas. They both decided, that they really wanted to do that.
So, I've got another...I've recently finished a fantasy novel and want to propose the villain from the first book.
What's The Work?
The Greatcoats is a recent fantasy quarter from writer Sebastian de Castell, inspired a lot by The Three Musketeers. When the story opens, our trio of heroes, Falcio, Brasti and Kest, are former Greatcoats. A century past, the Greatcoats were the king's finest soldiers, named for the voluminous coats they wore that signified their rank. Greatcoats kept the peace, protected the weak and upheld the law while defending the king. Finally, an evil king destroyed the line....
A century after this, Falcio val Mond is a peasant farmer, young and happily married, when his wife is raped by a duke when Falcio goes to pay hid tax. A bad mishap and offhand comment by the king leads to the duke taking Falcio's wife with him, here she is killed when she attempts to fight back. Falcio snaps, murders the duke and travels to kill the King, who's already died and left the kingdom in the hands of his weak son Paelias. Paelias, a more noble reformer, recognizes Falcio for a kindred spirit and the two revive the Greatcoats together, Falcio as their captain...unfortunately, Paelias's reforms to benefit the commoners inspire a rebellion amongst the dukes and Paelis is killed, while the Greatcoat order is destroyed. Falcio escapes with two companions, eking out a living as mercenaries...only to run into a conspiracy.
That said, let's meet our villain:
Who Is She and What's She do?
Patriana, Duchess of Hervor, inspired the rebellion against Paelias, whipping the dukes into a frenzy and marching against their king, killing tons of people in the ensuing bloodshed. Paelias is killed in it (Falcio, at Paelis's own request, killed his king to prevent him from being taken prisoner). this leaves Hervor as the strongest Duchy and Patriana as one of the strongest people in the nation.
The thing is, in this world, certain bloodlines made a pact with the divine, leading to the riling bloodlines offered more favor. Unfortunately, getting the squabbling Dukes to decide on a new ruler is diffcult and Patriana lacks the outright military or political power to force the issue. Falcio and his men are now guarding a duke named Tremondi and the book opens with them unhappily listening to their employer bedding a woman in his room...only to realize too late that the woman is in fact murdering him. Naturally the assassin was sent on Patriana's orders, mutilating the man and framing Falcio's trio for the crime.
Patriana is then shown to be guiding her daughter Valiana to petition the duchies to be named to the throne. Valiana's skill with politics, and general sweet nature leads her to betroth herself to another powerful Duke, giving her greater political power. Falcio and team end up in the thick of things, watching uneasily. Falcio at this time develops a romance with Valiana's handmaiden Trin. This'll be important soon. He also begins guarding a young 13 year old girl with the name Aline. The same name as Falcio's late wife.
Things go wrong as Patriana begins her schemes again, having more people murdered. Falcio is captured and taken to her dungeons where Patriana has him tortured to break him and make him her slave, a practice she describes as utterly routine. ("I make monsters, Falcio.") As a demonstration, Patriana shows Falcio she's captured a creature called a Fey Horse, a magical, sentient being...which she has forcibly impregnated. After the birth of every foal, Patriana has the baby taken, tortured to death in front of the mother and repeats the process, hoping to drive it insane to make it a killing machine. To break Falcio, Patriana has Aline thrown in with the insane horse and watches in cold fascination as the horse begins trying to maul the girl to death. Falcio's pleadings reach the horse and it stops. Patriana spares Aline just to use her to torment Falcio later.
Falcio later breaks out of jail with Aline (And the Fey Horse, now on his side), where he reunites with Kest and Brasti...the trio end up stumbling in on a nasty truth: Valiana? Is NOT Patriana's daughter. Trin is. Valiana was a peasant girl raised to believe she was a princess in waiting, simply to be the front of Patriana's scheme to unite the Duchies before replacing her with Trin. Valiana understandably has a breakdown and when she calls Patriana mother, Patriana icily backhands her and informs her she's going to be Trin's servant from thereon, subject to whatever abuse they want to give her.
It's revealed further that Aline's name is not coincidence: Before dying, Paelis has multiple bastard children, and pointedly named Aline after Falcio's late wife. Falcio is to restore Aline to the throne to continue Paelis's work of protecting the peasants. What follows is a battle that has our heroes victorious, but Trin escapes back to Hervor. Defeated, Patriana is forced to burn the contract to empower herself and her family, but as a last "fuck you", she throws in explosive powder to the fire in a last attempt to kill Falcio, killing herself rather than be taken alive.
Heinous by the Standards of the Story?
Thus far, easily. Patriana is a ruthless, sadistic, cruel woman who's actions have led to massive amounts of suffering and death. The tortures she devises are ghastly and the mental cruelty she gives to Valiana and everyone else is the worst so far.
Mitigating Qualities?
As far as Trin goes? No, not really. The two seem to have a fucntional relationship, but it's not a loving mother/daughter one. Patriana muses how difficult it must've been for Trin to watch Valiana get the spotlight, but refers to Trin as her finest creation and agent rather than as a daughter, and she treats her more like a subordinate and vehicle to power than anything. Trin is an open sociopath and just as nasty as her mother and displays no sadness when Patriana dies.
Besides that, Patriana is shown to genuinely believe that as a noble, she has the right to do whatever the fuck she wants to anyone below her. She states Paelis was a 'tyrant' for trying to change this, but she has no compunction killing nobles for her plans, and a belief in divine right to treat everyone as cattle or worse doesn't really strike me as remotely mitigating.
Overall, Patriana is a ruthless monster with a superiority complex at the end.
Conclusion?
I'd call her a keeper and I'll update if I believe Trin herself or any other villains end up as keepers.
I'm skeptical Dr. Poison will return. She's in her 30's or 40's by the time of World War I, and since most DCEU films take place in the present day, she'd be in her 130's or 140's at the time. But I suppose with her wizardry in biochemical engineering it might be possible, considering she was able to make Ludendorff go toe-to-toe with a freakin' demigod.
edited 16th Jun '17 10:19:56 AM by speyeker
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Swelter...god, I'd love to...the problem is most of his villainy is only hinted at. Strongly, but...
I mean, the man is an abusive monster to the kitchen boys and tries to murder a few other people, but his worst crimes-potential sexual abuse of the boys, and very probably cannibalizing them is only hinted at.
@Star Trek discussion: I think it depends on the villain's resources and the nature of the evil they are committing. The captain you speak of does sound like he could qualify just because of the personal evil of enslaving your crew with torture devices and employing said devices with impunity, but I've only ever watched TNG and Voyager so I can't really comment to the whole heinous standard of the entire franchise. I take personal evil as being on a different level to generic destruction though.
edited 16th Jun '17 10:29:10 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!

We only go by USA release date, I'm afraid. Dragon Ball is one of our few exceptions, though that's only because we have fan subs. If it's something that's never coming out to the US, I think we can accept that, however.
If you wanna do an EP, go ahead. We try to be welcoming to new people, so we'll help if you need advice.
edited 16th Jun '17 8:20:51 AM by PolarPhantom