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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#87101: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:41:17 PM

Luddendorf's a Keep, Poison and Ares aren't. If Poison had more indepedence, I could definitely see her counting, as I got absolutely nothing in redeeming or tragic qualities from her throughout the flick, but she's basically Luddendorf's lap dog throughout the film.

Ares, while nasty, is far too well-intentioned, seems to not truly want to fight Diana until she outright rejects his ideals, and seems to genuinely believe that Utopia Justifies the Means. The fact that he states as much while under the influence of the Lasso of Truth only proves that he GENUINELY believes this stuff. As an aside, David Thewlis ROCKED as him. Great villain and final fight.

Let's all just take a moment to appreciate that the DCEU has FINALLY landed an awesome flick. Regardless of your thoughts on Man of Steel, BvS, and Suicide Squad, it's not exactly false to state that they were at best divisive. Wonder Woman meanwhile has overcome HUGE obstacles and is now my favorite DC film since The Dark Knight (Not THAT hard to acheive, but still).

And 'Yes' to the Dark King as well.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:48:15 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87102: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:42:32 PM

Ares position is wrong and unjustified...but he genuinely believes it. He's warped, bitter, twisted and evil but he genuinely believes he's bettering the world at the end in a non-evil way.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#87103: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:43:42 PM

[tup]Ghadius and Ludendorff.

Oissu!
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#87104: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:44:15 PM

[up][up][up] I agree that WW is the best DCEU film. Men of Steel was pretty good IMO and I don't understand all the complaints, Dawn of Justice was not so good, Suicide Squad was terrible but this movie was awesome!

edited 15th Jun '17 7:44:39 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#87105: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:49:44 PM

Just came back from Wonder Woman, been only about half an hour since I saw it. Good movie.

So [tup] on Luttendorf. He's easily the worst person there, worse than Luthor and Zod and the rest.

[tdown] On Poison and Ares. Poison fails the heinous standard and Ares hits a bit closer to Well-Intentioned Extremist than Knight Templar for me to say yes to. I did like his monologue about how he only gives them the tools and that it's humanity's own choice to use them and ultimately how their ability to make that choice makes him hate them. Good on David Thewlis. Looking forward to talking about him again in a few weeks once Fargo finishes.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:54:47 PM by DrPsyche

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#87106: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:53:41 PM

I get that Ares genuinely believes his position, but most Knight Templar types do, always believing themselves to be the good guy in the face of all the wrong they do.

That said I think I'm still abstaining, even though it looks like he ultimately won't count. I think it would be an easier vote [tup] if Ares was direclty called out about his position by Diana in a Shut Up, Hannibal! moment.

And yes, while he has a point in humanity being evil on his own without his influence, at the same time he kind if ignored the fact that he is influencing them. Even though he's not overriding their freewill or anything, he is still manipulating and influencing humanity and the war for the express purpose of wiping humanity out.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:57:15 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87107: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:53:43 PM

You know what I found very cool?

Ares is a politician...which is a fitting disguise for the God of War.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#87108: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:55:09 PM

Yes to Ludendorff, and I personally find it hilarious if the first DCEU movie keeper isn't a super villain, but a real-life guy. Also, no to Ares on being sincerely affable towards Diana and well-intentioned overall.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#87109: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:59:04 PM

Lighty: I found that bit about his disguise interesting and clevver too, although I found the fact his human form is pretty much his true form kinda Narm worthy (mostly the mustasche beneath the armor).

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#87110: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:05:04 PM

Wonder Woman was an okay movie. Though I can't help but wonder if people love it so much simply because being compared to Bv S or Suicide Squad makes it look even better in comparison when it's an okay movie on its own merits.

Anyway, yes to Lutendorf (Kinda funny that the first DCEU keeper isn't even a comic book character, but a real human being turned into a hilariously over the top mustache twirling baddie), no to Ares (David Thewlis was a good choice for "Sneaky, seemingly friendly schemer" Ares, though I don't think he really worked when he suited up for battle. But eh, still a good performance all the same). Though I'll go against the grain with Dr. Poison and give a yes to her.

One thing I've gotta say though: I'm honestly surprised that no incarnations of ANY Greek Gods aside from one incarnation of Hades (if memory serves: I'm aware of Kid Icarus Uprising's Hades but I dunno about any others) count. And it's funny: Hades was pretty much one of the nicest of the bunch while the likes of Zeus, Ares, and Hera were absolutely terrible people.

EDIT: Ninja'd by OE, ha ha. Pretty funny observation though.

edited 15th Jun '17 8:06:14 PM by FriedWarthog

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#87111: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:05:53 PM

[tup] Lutendorf. No questions asked.

[tdown] Poison for genuine loyalty.

[tdown] Ares for falling short of the mark. Complete Monsterdom would destroy his nuance as a villain.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87112: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:06:36 PM

I can extrapolate a lot on why I loved WW, but that's neither here nor there. Poison...she's a character I could have seen being an easy yes IMO if they'd played her a bit differently

Poor, poor Hades indeed. Actually I do know an incarnation of Zeus (kinda sorta) who may count...shame I forgot most of the meat to it, though.

edited 15th Jun '17 8:07:39 PM by Lightysnake

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#87113: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:08:55 PM

[up] Where is he from? Maybe I will look him up.

Also, Apotheon Zeus came very close to qualifying if it wasn't for mitigating factors. And Ares qualified in the first GOW game before the evolution of the heinous standard (mostly by Kratos).

edited 15th Jun '17 8:10:08 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87114: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:11:23 PM

Ilum and Olympos by Dan simmons.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#87115: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:22:34 PM

[tup] Luddendorf (or however you spell it)

[tdown] Ares and Dr. Poison

edited 15th Jun '17 8:23:05 PM by Karxrida

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#87117: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:43:21 PM

The Greek gods are jerks but I think they're all pretty far from CMs in the actual myths even so. Zeus did genuinely love his infinity billion kids in most versions and there's several stories of him being disgusted by particularly depraved mortals such as Tantalus, Hera obviously had a pretty understandable reason for being so pissed off all the time and Ares tends to be a rather pathetic Big Bad Wannabe in most stories I've read (plus some Pet the Dog moments with his own kids) - sounds like he gets quite a bit of Adaptational Dignity in this movie.

edited 15th Jun '17 8:55:41 PM by HamburgerTime

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#87118: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:03:14 PM

Yes to Ludendorff and no to Ares. The reason the film made Ludendorff such a monster is to try and make Ares's points about how bad humanity is sound reasonable. Still not an excuse for Ares's actions but I'm saying no to him since he genuinely believes that he's doing the world a good thing by eliminating humanity.

By the way, the SCP Foundation candidate I'm trying to propose was posted on the website on June 7. Is it too early to propose him?

edited 15th Jun '17 9:06:39 PM by despoa

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#87119: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:14:43 PM

[tup]Ludendorff.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#87120: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:24:05 PM

[tup] Ludendorff. That scene of him patting Poison's cheek DID make me hesitate a bit, but that's it. Not enough to disqualify. My only other hesitation was how he stood out heinouswise in the DCEU (this was the first DCEU movie I've scene), but that doesn't seem an issue.

[tdown] Ares.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#87121: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:30:08 PM

[tup] Lutendorff, [tdown] Ares and Poison

Ares seems to be one of those "Messiah in his own mind, but mass-murdering monster in reality" villains whose self-delusion is painted as too tragic and, in it's own twisted way, well-meaning for him to qualify. (Like Cyrus and Lysandre from Pokemon for example)

edited 15th Jun '17 9:31:51 PM by ANewMan

speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#87122: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:42:55 PM

[tup] to Ludendorff. Dr. Poison didn't really strike out at me too much in the movie, but I'm going to abstain for now on her...there were occasions where it almost felt like a Big Bad Duumvirate with her and Ludendorff, and again, she had no problem continuing Ludendorff's plans once he was killed.

Ares is interesting...when I saw the film and came home, I went to TV Tropes character page for him and was kinda surprised at what was said, as I didn't quite get the same interpretation of him genuinely believing what he's doing is morally correct. I guess I must have missed something, or didn't interpret his dialogue closely enough? To me, he seemed like he just wanted to engineer total war and kill everyone for virtually no reason...this can't be excused by Blue-and-Orange Morality or being a Mad God (similar to how we used this to excuse Majora), since he exists in a setting with other, far more benevolent gods...and he kills them all the same. So if he murders all his fellow gods, and he murders all humans, then what's left? Him and him alone.

I'm guessing my interpretation is incorrect, but honestly, I agree with Beast here and am going by how I felt when watching the film: yes, Ares gets a [tup] as well. Not that it matters at this point since I'm outvoted, but yeah, that's where I stand.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#87123: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:46:55 PM

"No" to both Ares and Doctor Poison for the reasons discussed.

I'm also going to go against the grain here and vote "no" on Ludendorff. I took the scene where he tells Poison that he believes in her to be genuine, and nothing actually contradicts it. I also think he sincerely believes his balderdash about how the war going on will ultimately make humanity better, and while that's hardly the material of which Well Intentioned Extremists are made it's enough to make me leery.

Obviously I don't expect anyone to agree with my vote here, but having already discussed it with Lighty I can't in good conscience vote him up.

Luddendorf (or however you spell it)

It's Erich Ludendorff. "D" not "T". And Doctor Poison's last name is "Maru" not "Moru" (a holdover from the character being Japanese in the comics).

(Kinda funny that the first DCEU keeper isn't even a comic book character, but a real human being turned into a hilariously over the top mustache twirling baddie)

This is neither here nor there but I keep hearing this and it bothers me—most WWI generals were, by any modern standard, hilariously over the top mustache twirling baddies. This includes Ludendorff who in real life not only subscribed to the "War Is Glorious and makes humanity better" nonsense that his film counterpart talks about, but survived the war, lied to the German people about how their defeat was entirely due to a cabal of Jews stabbing them in the back and helped start the Nazi Party. Seriously, the film is not changing him much from his real life counterpart.

This is true of most WWI general officers and their superiors. Sir Douglas Haig killed millions of his own troops in futile Zerg Rush tactics. Sir Sam Hughes sent Canadian soldiers to the front with cardboard boots and shovels with holes cut in the middle, all so his friends could make a profit. Italian chief of staff Luigi Cadorna wanted to tie deserters to posts in the middle of No Man's Land so the Austrians would shoot them for him, and regularly threatened to have units decimated (as in every tenth man shot). And Enver Pasha, the Ottoman Minister of War not only ran a genocide, but got his job by personally shooting the prior Minister of War, and on another occasion, shot his ostensible superior, the Ottoman Grand Vizier, because the man was winning a political debate with him. Seriously, he was a Bond villain and, if you read his memoirs, rather proud of it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#87124: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:50:28 PM

RE: Ares, it's worth noting he didn't want to kill the Gods or Diana at first. He resorted to that when they didn't listen to him...not exactly the nicest move, but..

RE Ludendorff: As I said previously, 'war' is one thing. Gassing London is another.

There's really no way, IMO, to see Ludendorff as well-intentioned in any way, shape or form. His comments on "war will strengthen humanity" is contradicted by his actions, and not redeeming in any case. The man's shown to simply be in love with war, with a very 'only the strong survive' attitude that's contrasted by Ares heavily.

Telling Poison he believes in her...likewise not seeing it. She's not shown to be his friend or Morality Pet, she's the person making him chemical weapons and he needs her to provide them.

edited 15th Jun '17 9:55:21 PM by Lightysnake

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#87125: Jun 15th 2017 at 9:53:08 PM

[up][up] The "war makes a stronger humanity" rhetoric is no more redeeming than Captain Vidal's "I want a clean, pure Spain for my son to grow up in" talk was in Pans Labyrinth.

The moment with Poison is more ambiguous, but it's as easy to view it as being incredibly emotionally manipulative as it is to view it as being sincere.

edited 15th Jun '17 9:53:30 PM by ANewMan


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