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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#86976: Jun 14th 2017 at 7:30:09 AM

[tup] Steerpike and [tup] Stoughton.

edited 14th Jun '17 7:30:37 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#86977: Jun 14th 2017 at 7:51:22 AM

Alright, people are saying no to Dr. Money, so I'll drop it.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86978: Jun 14th 2017 at 8:16:45 AM

[tup] Stouton, another Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist abusing the Templar name for their own benefits.

Honestly, I kinda want an Assassin CM, someone who twists their goals horribly.

Also, [tup] Steerpike. He goes far beyond what his Freudian Excuse would account for. And it's not like the other kitchen people turned into big murder dicks.

I suppose his character could represent From Nobody to Nightmare and how having bad things happen to you isn't a get out of jail free card. Rather than being Anti Heroic or Anti Villainous. That's some Misaimed Fandom there, but I suppose it's a testament to good writing?

And Ambar's absolutely right about editing the main Gormenghast page to reflect our decision.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#86980: Jun 14th 2017 at 8:35:17 AM

[tup] to Steerpike and Stoughton.

I have a villain I've been thinking about for quite a while now, and was never sure if they counted. I'm just going to get them out of the way.

What's the work?

The work I'll be looking into is manga adaptation of The Legendary Starfy. If you need a summary of this series read my effort posts for the villains from it. The manga only has one main villain (Evil/Iburu does not exist here) and that is Ogura. In the games, he indeed is played tragically and sympathetically, here however, he is not. He's a pretty big case of Adaptational Villainy, and is the Big Bad of the manga, being played more seriously and as a threat at all times.

Who is he?

Ogura starts off the first chapter by attacking Starfy's home of Pufftop, and after attacking the guards and residents, he nearly squeezes Starfy to death. This chapter serves more as an introductory thing to all the characters, and as such he is sealed back in the jar at the end.

In chapter two, Ogura escapes the jar due to Starfy and his parents having a falling out, which results in Starfy attacking his mother and breaking the jar. Ogura sees this as an opportunity to kidnap Starfy's mom, and makes off with her. Starfy starts to set off on a journey to save her. He next properly appears in chapter five, appearing in some chapters as a thought bubble but not properly.

In chapter five, Starfy's mother has filmed a tape telling Starfy where Ogura has taken her, but before she can finish her talking, Ogura attacks her before the tape ends, and eventually they find where he is. Ogura sees them, and simply laughs (from a monitor screen), before revealing that he's brainwashed Starfy's mom and is forcing her to fight Starfy. She comes close to winning and killing Starfy, Ogura being fine with this (not like game Ogura where he secretly cared for Starfy). At the last second, however, Starfy manages to get Ogura back in the jar again, and all is well blah blah blah.

I believe that's when Ogura crosses the Moral Event Horizon. Forcing a child to fight their brainwashed mother is something the games didn't touch on, and is pretty damn dark for a kid's series.

He next appears in chapter seven (six is a filler where the characters go to the cinema), where Starfy acidentally slams the jar into a table, breaking it, but Ogura is sleeping. Yes, this chapter is Played for Laughs, but Ogura still is not. He disguises himself as a mysterious man named Shuuri-jiisan, telling Starfy where to go to fix the jar. He's not lying, but this forces Starfy to go through many, many perilous locations to fix it. It's unknown WHY Ogura wanted them to fix it, but anyway, it's revealed that he left his tail in the jar before becoming Shuuri-jiisan so it would look like he didn't escape.

Next is chapter nine, where Starfy is looking for Ogura in a forest. Starfy meets a friendly talking tree who gives them food on the way, before the tree tells him he knows where Ogura went. After Starfy makes it through the mountain, it's revealed that Ogura started a forest fire For the Evulz, causing the friendly tree and most likely a lot of other beings to die. Starfy manages to put out the fire, but the tree still dies. Thankfully they grow back.

Bodycount: a tree.

In chapter ten, Starfy passes through a town where Ogura has planted deadly landmines throughout, forcing the residents to evacuate, and possibly putting his attempted bodycount in the hundreds. The only reason nobody flat out dies here is because it's a kid's manga.

Next comes the final chapter, chapter eleven, in which Ogura appears again. Due to him being missing for a rather long time, Starfy worries that he will never be able to get him back in the jar. Starfy meets one of the Pufftop guards, who is holding a newer, longer jar. Ogura sees this as dangerous and knocks the jar away, sucking Starfy into it.

The world inside the new jar is like a completely empty version of the real world. The only beings here currently are Starfy and Ogura, and Ogura capitalizes on this by telling Starfy all his friends are dead and knocking Starfy into the ocean to die. He then says "I wish I could go back to life". This line... to be honest it makes no sense and really doesn't mean anything as Ogura isn't dead yet. Just a plain weird line.

Starfy is rescued from the long jar, but Ogura is not, and so he dies. Starfy cries about him dying, but it's not about HIM specificallly and more that a nine year old had just witnessed someone die. Starfy doesn't actually feel sympathy for Ogura, not disqualifying.

Possible mitigators

Number one issue: the heinous standard. This manga should be treated as a seperate canon from the games, as it is, and as such Ogura is the worst in story, with no Evil or Mashtooth in sight. I think he just BARELY passes the overall standard,

There is one debatable thing, and that is that there are some short 4-panel bits at the end of volume one of the manga that portray Ogura as nice. But honestly... does this mean anything? This part specifically is an ad for Densetsu no Stafy 2 at the end of the manga, and Ogura doesn't appear otherwise in volume one. I think this is purely a little funny bit the author wanted in and in no way does it effect Ogura's credibility. It's also an extra.

You could use his bodycount against him, and say it's just a tree. But factor in his ATTEMPTED bodycount, with the landmines, and his... unique methods of getting Starfy killed, it's not a mitigator.

Freudian excuses?

None. That one line about wanting to come back to life would only make sense in game as in the manga, Ogura never pulls a Heroic Sacrifice or any of the sort in the manga like the games. Once again, he doesn't have the excuse of being enslaved under Evil here, he acts of his own violition and it's obvious that the author inherited Evil's ultimate goals from the games (destroy the universe and conquer Pufftop) into this interpretation of Ogura.

Verdict?

I think it's a weak [tup]. Welcome to counterarguments in this case.

edited 14th Jun '17 10:30:02 AM by MahStache

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#86981: Jun 14th 2017 at 8:38:47 AM

[tup]Steerpike

@86970

If I'm not mistaken, I think Galvatron from the old Robots in Disguise Anime is worth a discussion with regards to other CM characters from transformers. It's kinda the same case with Megabyte and Unicron Trilogy Megatron in that they start out with redeeming qualities but loses it after a major transformaton. And while the original RID is quite lighter and softer, it's set in it's own continuity so Galvatron dosen't have to compete with other villains.

The issue is I don't have time to go through old anime just to see if someone qualifies.

Also I'm not sure if anyone has seen the trailer for the upcoming Wolfenstein game but I think it's a shame Frau Engel won't count barring a major flashback sequence that subverts her redeeming qualities(that being that she genuinely loves her assistant, who died in Wolfenstein The New Order).

edited 14th Jun '17 8:40:30 AM by xie323

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#86982: Jun 14th 2017 at 9:08:32 AM

Off topic for a minute, but yeah I agree with you Polar Phantom. It wouldn't be difficult, I mean they are in the business of murder and its pretty easy to take "Everything is allowed, nothing is sacred" at face value rather than what its actually supposed to mean.

Striking that, I would settle for at least a bit deeper look at the more negative effects of their actions. One problem I've always had with the series is that while they aim for moral complexity, and do bring up the Assassin's failings and hypocrisies, overall they generally brush over any negative consequences of there actions.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#86983: Jun 14th 2017 at 10:28:50 AM

It seems everything is said and done with Jedah. The votes are too even. Desaix, on the other hand...

Hey, guess what? There's more! Turns out there is a postgame dungeon that holds a secret. A secret that gives some rich context to a previous CM.

In the Thabes Labyrinth on the Archanean continent, there are a series of tablets that tell the tale of an alchemist named Forneus. Praised for his genius, Forenus desired two things: using the dead to create the perfect army and the creation of a perfect being. The Senate of Thabes sent messengers and soldiers to check on him, but none returned. So, they sealed his workshop with magic after their failure to return and dubbed him the Demon Alchemist. The nickname holds so much water. He used insects called Thanatophages that dig underground and implant themselves into corpses to control — this is how the Risen from Awakening were made. He also created his precious perfect lifeform after introducing his own blood and that of a Divine Dragon. That creature is none other than Grima the Fell Dragon. After giving Grima his blood, Forneus could hear Grima's dark and violent thoughts in his own head, implying Forenus was the first of a long line of potential hosts that ended with Robin in Awakening.

Careful what you wish for, am I right?

So he needs a rewrite to accommodate this new information. I'll do it later.

edited 14th Jun '17 10:34:02 AM by erazor0707

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#86984: Jun 14th 2017 at 10:54:44 AM

Please add to the Drafts, Also, where at Fire Emblem would it go?

And shit, does that throw Grima's moral agency into question?

edited 14th Jun '17 10:56:29 AM by ACW

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#86985: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:03:35 AM

[up] Between Archanea and Judgral.

... Good question. Divine Dragons (and he has the blood of one, hence his godlike nature) suffer from eventual madness, but Grima also has human blood (he has a humanlike face beneath the one we see), which is how he started developing better in the first place.

edited 14th Jun '17 11:04:43 AM by erazor0707

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#86986: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:10:14 AM

Except it seems like Grima was created...I'll leave it up to you, as I don't know enough about the games.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#86987: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:39:09 AM

Considering that Grima was made by a Mad Scientist, I concur that its moral agency might be in question. Its souds like it was born insane due to the Dark Arts involved with its creation.

edited 14th Jun '17 11:55:40 AM by Karxrida

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#86988: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:19:57 PM

erazor: Not sure if I'd say that Grima is a surefire cut: just what kind of person was Grima's creator like? Did he create him with things like having him create cults to worship him in his name, force countries-worth of people to commit suicide, or force people to watch as he killed all their friends in mind? If that's not the case I could see him being an example who counts in a similar vein due to Alduin or Cell where despite being born as a destructive monster, he willingly makes the choice to revel in his villainy and act far more brutal, cruel, and sadistic than he was ever meant to be (Though in Alduin's case it's shown that Dragons do have the option to turn good, so I dunno if he can accurately be compared to the likes of Cell or Grima. Meh).

EDIT: Bah, after refreshing my memory regarding Cell I forgot that he had the option to do good since other Androids chose not to be violent killing machines. So my comparisons and arguments are worthless. :I

edited 14th Jun '17 12:24:11 PM by FriedWarthog

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#86989: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:17:32 PM

Hmm.....that one line does give me a bit of a pause. Otherwise I'll give a slight [tup] for Ogura.

People.

MahStache made an effortpost almost five hours ago. There's no need to ignore it.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#86990: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:20:45 PM

Oops, I am so sorry. I'll give a tentative [tup] for Ogura too.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#86992: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:27:00 PM

I think manga!Ogura makes the cut. Yea to him.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#86993: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:58:24 PM

Okay, having played through Salt and Sanctuary, I think there is a first potential candidate who I think is more heinous from other characters though not sure if he meets the baseline since I still have struggle with understanding it. Polar Phantom will effort-post the Big Bad while I will this and another boss.

Who is he and what has he done?

The boss character is the Untouched Inquisitor. He is an Inquisitor who saw sin everywhere and wanted to cleanse it. He came to the Dome of Light and first he slaughtered the Temple's entire congregation. The game states at one point he has done it to many other Domes. Later he also slaughtered the Dome's Lady of Light. Finally, he also sacrificed the Third Lamb, the pet of the lady and the hippogriff. However, he didn't kill the hippogriff but condemned it into And I Must Scream and you actually fight it as a boss. It is described as "bound and broken thrall of the Untouched Inquisitor".

I wouldn't call it offscreen since when you are at the Dome you fight plenty of ghosts from the congregation and you also fight the Third Lamb. So I would call it onscreen. Simillar case like with Dark Souls III villains and the game was inspired by Dark Souls.

Heinous?

I am not sure if he meets the baseline but he is certainly worse from other boss characters. Some don't even get their evil deeds described while others are monsters that lack Moral Agency. I will tell you those who do have;

Mad Alchemist - described as once proud alchemist whose gone mad and became murderous machine. No actual deeds and lack of detail.

False Jester - lured few travelers and impaled them while looking for a true jester. Though, he lacks Moral Agency for sure.

Carsejaw the Cruel - The backstory said he was a witch-hunter. He also wanted to get rid of conspirators. However, that is absolutely offscreen and lack of detail.

The Coveted - used his axe on the Royal family to become a king himself.

Queen of Smiles - now that is the villain that he certainly competes with and I am planning to EP her too. In the backstory it is stated that she massively slaughtered plenty of her subjects and villages and adorned her city walls with corpses of her victims.

Nameless King - the Big Bad whom I haven't reached yet but Polar will EP when I finish the game.

Overall, I think he is worse from others in that we get detail on what he does, it is actually onscreen, and slaughtering entire congregation and condemning a hippogriff (who is implied to be sentient through backstories) to And I Must Scream, I think he does stand-out. But I am not sure if that is enough.

Conclusion

You guys decide. And if you are the first person to vote please give some context about your vote and why you think he qualifies or does not.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:59:13 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#86994: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:10:47 PM

[tup] to manga!Ogura. The Untouched Inquisitor sounds heinous enough, especially when compared to other villains whose crimes are mostly offscreen. So [tup] to him.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86995: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:14:26 PM

I'm gonna add, the Untouched Inquisitor is worse than what emperors is saying.

See, you fight these weird ghost things in the Dome of Light.

Those were the people.

The UI did that to them to "purify" them. To strip them of their bodies and will.

Anyway, he has little characterisation... I'll think on this after checking the wiki (which is really good, by the way, it has just about all the item descriptions).

EDIT: So, here's the Item Description for the UI's Boss Weapon, The Purifier: A peculiar weapon forged from the remains of the Untouched Inquisitor, self-ordained arbiter of the Dome of Light. The soulless Inquisitor, burdened neither by emotion to cloud his judgment nor guilt to stay his hand, suffered no prejudice and knew no mercy. He handed down verdicts with frigid indifference and carried out sentences with irreproachable impunity.

Hm. Could go either way on him having Moral Agency. He could just be "emotionless" by choice and being souless is a common insult for a villain.

I shall study more lore.

edited 14th Jun '17 2:18:28 PM by PolarPhantom

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#86996: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:16:55 PM

Weak yes to Ogura and the Untouched Inquisitor.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86998: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:24:03 PM

Here's the official description for the Whispermen, the enemies that were cursed by the Untoushed Inquisitor: A former member of the congregation of the Dome of Light, made the First Lamb by the Untouched Inquisitor, who saw sin on them. Silent and forgotten, they roam the halls, their place of solace now an eternal prison.

Ah, screw it, [tup] Untouched Inquisitor. He has just enough characterisation and is given no other motive than being a Knight Templar who hates sin. Which might be mitigating, but it's never really described in a positive light.

The only thing that gives me pause is he is apparently souless, but nothing else indicates he lacks agency, so I'm gonna say it's more a lack of humanity and compassion than anything.

edited 14th Jun '17 2:28:54 PM by PolarPhantom

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#86999: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:31:47 PM

So my first ever CM was a Franchise/Transformers a villain, so let's go for another one! It's a human example too!

What is the work?

The Dreamwave productions transformers comics were...not the best. It doesn't help that the higher ups at the company were a bunch of greedy assholes, who have a track record of not playing their artist! But I'm not here to criticize the them or the comics. I'm here to take about this asshole...

Who is he?

Adam Rook, a.k.a Lazarus, is a rogue government engineer turned arms dealer. What weapons does he sell? Transformers, of course! How did he get his hands on the transformers? Well, funny story...

What did he do?

Engineer Adam Rook was hired in 1997 by US General Robert Hallo to design and build an army of intelligent shapeshifting robot soldiers. Despite ample resources and staff, each of the Lazarus Project's fifty protoypes was an abject failure. Confronted with these setbacks, Hallo changed course, and took advantage of the recent Autobot/Human defeat of the Decepticons to experiment upon the deactivated Decepticons. Eventually, Rook succeeded in creating a program to control Transformers—the program allowed specific objectives to be input into the Transformer's central intelligence, suppressing their free will but retaining a level of intelligence sufficient to make independent decisions while carrying out the mission.

After Hallo (Who most definitely will be getting recommended next) blew up the Ark ll, depositing the Transformers into the Arctic Ocean, Rook disappeared, taking the control program with him.

Over the next four years, Rook, motivated by greed, adopted the alias 'Lazarus' and built an organization to retrieve and reactivate the slumbering Transformers. From a remote base in the Northwest Territories, he succeeded in reviving a number of Transformers, including Soundwave, Hound, Bumblebee, Grimlock, Starscream, Thundercracker, Rumble, Ravage, Prowl, Laserbeak, Skywarp, Cliffjumper, Ratchet, Ironhide, Bluestreak, Huffer, Brawn—and his 'deluxe model', Megatron. He hired them out to a number of tyrants and terrorists, who used them to attack and exterminate their enemies.

Some time later, Lazarus sent Grimlock, Bumblebee, Soundwave, Starscream, Thundercracker, Rumble, Ravage, and Laserbeak to attack an Arctic Smitco Oil Refinery, slaughtering the entire place. Why? As a demonstration to an audience of potential buyers.

Freudian Excuse or mitigating factors?

Nope. He was motivated purely but Greed

Heinous standard?

He enslaved a species of sentient robots, gave them to terrorist and dictators to kill their enemies, and had them slaughter innocent men just to show off to potential buyers. I think that checks it.

Conclusion?

Definite yes from me. Sorry I was taking this one as seriously as the others, this comic series is just really bad.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#87000: Jun 14th 2017 at 2:46:09 PM

Tentative yes to Adam Rook though, I don't know much about Transformers heinous standard.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!

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