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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#86901: Jun 13th 2017 at 7:14:32 AM

[tup]Jacob and Carroll. [tdown] Jedah and Tso.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#86903: Jun 13th 2017 at 7:34:55 AM

It's been 2 weeks since the last episode of The Walking Dead's 3rd season. There's no one who counts this season. The only contender has a sympathetic motivation for their actions, and no one else compares to her.

edited 13th Jun '17 9:53:42 AM by VeryMelon

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#86904: Jun 13th 2017 at 8:01:14 AM

I'm a bit on the fence with Jedah.

On the one hand, we didn't disqualify Validar for his sheer devotion to his god, and Validar's pretty much the standard "Evil Fire Emblem Sorcerer." And while Jedah thinks what he's doing is better for the world, he does kick a lot of dogs to get what he wants, and there are times when he seems needlessly cruel as well, especially since he later reveals that he never intended to keep any promises he made to Celica to ensure her cooperation.

Then again, Validar also thought that Grima's resurrection was better for the world, even if we all knew it wasn't since Grima's far more malicious than Duma and seems to want to rule over a world of the living dead instead of bettering humanity.

On the other hand, the bit about Jedah wanting to cure Duma's growing madness and his unwavering belief that Duma's teachings are the best thing for the world does give me pause. While he's an unpleasant fellow through and through, there is a genuineness to him that I feel might be a mitigating factor. However, I don't think sincere devotion to one's god is a mitigating factor, otherwise louts like Riev and Validar also wouldn't qualify for complete monsterdom.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#86905: Jun 13th 2017 at 8:04:27 AM

"No" on Jedah; sounds like his devotion to his god is about more than just fanaticism, especially if he's trying to cure the god's madness. That crosses the line from mere religious obsession and into personal loyalty.

"No" on Tso for the reasons others have already listed.

"No" on Jacob for sounding like he might have a few decent intentions, however screwed up they are by what he is.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#86906: Jun 13th 2017 at 8:48:28 AM

[tdown] Tsao and Jacob.

[up][up] Pretty much summarizes how I feel on Jedah. He's a tossup, but it appears the thread deems it genuine loyalty, which is totally understandable.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#86907: Jun 13th 2017 at 9:00:27 AM

No offense Ambar but do you sometimes say "yes"?

Abstain Jedah because I haven't finished the game. [tup] Caroll and Jacob [tdown] Tso

edited 13th Jun '17 9:29:18 AM by Silverblade2

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#86908: Jun 13th 2017 at 9:08:25 AM

[up]Plenty of times and suggested countless candidates himself.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#86909: Jun 13th 2017 at 9:22:14 AM

Really Silverblade? You've been here for years and you've never seen any of Ambar's proposals?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#86910: Jun 13th 2017 at 9:26:25 AM

BTW, for Novel!Sharptooth, does anyone know if it's this book or this one?

Also, the pages still needing quotes:

edited 13th Jun '17 10:22:13 AM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#86911: Jun 13th 2017 at 10:35:45 AM

The thing with Jedah, for me, is that he shares a universe with Manfroy, Gharnef, and Validar, who are all actively aware their dragon god-thing of choice is horrible and just don't give a rat's ass. That Jedah seems to have even a bit of altruistic intentions instantly makes him less heinous than them.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#86912: Jun 13th 2017 at 10:37:12 AM

ACW, I don't remember, does it even matter?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#86913: Jun 13th 2017 at 10:37:50 AM

[up] Not terribly; I just wanted to put the author's name and the complete title. Ah well.

Are these disqualifying (from Punisher MAX)?
Kingpin:

  • Even Evil Has Loved Ones: His own selfishness dwarfed his love for his son, and he eventually admits to himself that really, It's All About Me. Still, he was apparently unable to bring himself to have his own wife executed, as his response to her turning on and trying to kill him was to merely kick her out of their home.
  • Even Evil Has Standards: Ruthless crime lord he may be, he is nonetheless shocked when he finds out that Bullseye had three different families kidnapped and murdered. He's so shocked, that he fires him upon discovering this.

Bullseye (the full quote can be found here):

  • Pet the Dog: As Vanessa Fisk is being kicked out by her husband, Bullseye takes her aside and advises her to abandon her plans for revenge, and to try to move on, lest she become a monster like him. This leads to Bullseye going off on a tangent about how his life has devolved into nothing but severe neurosis that he keeps at bay through killing, which is the only thing that makes him feel functional and alive.
    Bullseye: I'm glad we had this talk.

As for Barracuda, he DOES seem to care for Hemo, and seems sad when he accidentally kills him...but only for a minute. YMMV on whether that's disqualifying.

edited 13th Jun '17 11:32:38 AM by ACW

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#86914: Jun 13th 2017 at 12:35:39 PM

[tup]Jedah, fanatic who sacrifices his children. Also [tup] Jacob.

edited 13th Jun '17 12:36:23 PM by PhiSat

Oissu!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86915: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:14:00 PM

I'm gonna [tup] Jacob. It seems more like he wants 'Merica for himself rather than saving it for the future or whatever.

Ambar has voted "Yes" before, but not often. They have high standards, that's all. To wit, they voted up Rovok's proposals from that Korean film and my own proposal for Injustice!Brainiac. And there's more but I have not the time to check.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#86916: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:17:23 PM

I'll say 'Yes' to Jedah and Jacob.

@ACW: Yeah....having recently read through the Punisher MAX run, I'm honestly pretty wary as to how Kingpin and Bullseye have been there so long without much contention.

Kingpin not killing Vanessa I could KINDA see as him not trying to draw untoward ire toward himself, but his convo with Bullseye about the families is as follows:

  • "FOUR FAMILIES! Four entire families MURDERED in one week! What kind of depraved fucking MANIAC are you?! CASTLE! I hired you to kill Frank Castle, not women and damn CHILDREN!....Four families are dead for no reason at all. This is unacceptable. It ends NOW. No more killing. No more bloodbaths!"

And as for Bullseye, the guy's a lunatic with nary a nice thing about him, but....him going on a rant to Vanessa about how she shouldn't give into killing ANYONE because when you start killing, it becomes all you think about and you SHOULD feel guily but you don't and that you want to cry but can't cause people are looking is....pretty interesting, to say the least.

I'm not necessarily saying they should be cut, but they've been listed since nearly the beginning of the thread, and criteria has changed since, so I think we at least need to do a hard reevaluation of them.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#86917: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:20:13 PM

I can see cutting Bullseye, but Fisk is a harder sell.

The issue is Bullseye is drawing an intense amount of heat to him.When his back's to the wall, Fisk is more than willing to admit he doesn't care about anyone or anything beyond himself. That said, I can see how it might be standards in that he doesn't appreciate or enjoy this happening.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:25:17 PM by Lightysnake

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#86918: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:20:43 PM

Jedah is 4 [tup] - 3 abstains/unsures - 6 [tdown] (if I counted correctly). Any more votes?

I'll have Desaix's entry written this evening.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86919: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:23:50 PM

[up][up] If we cut Bullseye than that will HURT. More than Orochimaru.

But... that conversation with Vanessa... I'll wait till more people familiar with the book weigh in. This is not something to take lightly.

edited 13th Jun '17 2:23:07 PM by PolarPhantom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#86920: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:24:27 PM

This is the MAX Bullseye, not the regular Marvel Bullseye

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#86921: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:27:08 PM

Well damn, tried to stay away from this thread for a while but things just got way too interesting.

I guess my word doesn't mean much since I haven't read Punisher MAX yet (Been meaning to though: really loving his eighties adventures in the main comics so far) but I honestly feel that MAX!Bullseye should be cut. I remember reading that Pet The Dog entry but didn't bring it up here since I figured that since Bullseye had been left up for so long that there was likely some context I was missing. But after Ravok and ACW bought it up it really feels like he fails hard at not having any truly redeeming qualities. Definitely sounds like an interesting direction to take the character though, I'll give it that.

As for Fisk... I want to agree with Lighty that it's less of Fisk truly having standards against killing children and more of him being pissed with Bullseye for drawing unwanted attention, but the phrasing makes it a tough sell. I'll think about him for a bit.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:27:40 PM by FriedWarthog

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#86922: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:45:03 PM

Fisk's "standard" is one that is HARD to pin down. At a glance, it looks like he's just trying to keep things on the down-low and doesn't want to draw attention, but the way he says it also gives me pause because it sorta sounds less like a "You madman, you're drawing WAY too much attention to this thing! Are you a complete idiot?!" and more like a "You madman, those were women and children you killed! Are you a complete LUNATIC?!

Though in the same instance, he had no problem with watching his son be killed, so again, it's a toughie to nail down.

As for Bullseye's thing, that's another weird one because it's the ONLY scene that shows any form of thought process along the lines of "Look, killing a bunch of people isn't all it's cracked up to be". All other scenes Bullseye is a sadistic madman who murders a hellton of people who have absolutely nothing to do with him, but it's one of those "single scene" things where you really can't explain why he would say that stuff to Vanessa unless he was being genuine, because at that point, what he said didn't affect anything else she did. He seemed to be warning her against becoming a murderer out of nothing but....genuineness, it seems.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:54:20 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#86923: Jun 13th 2017 at 1:59:04 PM

I haven't actually read the MAX run (I plan to soon), but those things caught my eye. Funny if we cut a MAX character, from Ennis, yet not the original.

As for 'Cuda, if he showed that he still felt bad about "Hemo"'s death, that could be disqualifying, but he doesn't, so nah. There are things with some others of the MAX approved ones, but I'll wait until I read those.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#86924: Jun 13th 2017 at 2:18:15 PM

@Ravok: And along with allowing his son to die, Fisk also sanctioned and videotaped the gang-rape of a woman before murdering her in order to hurt her husband for raping him in prison. So eh... I think with this in mind, I'm going to vote in favor of keeping Fisk.

edited 13th Jun '17 2:26:02 PM by FriedWarthog

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#86925: Jun 13th 2017 at 2:23:40 PM

@ Lighty: I know. In hindsight, I should have indicated I meant MAX!Bullseye, I thought it obvious who I meant and I didn't think it necessary at the time. I was naive

edited 13th Jun '17 2:24:12 PM by PolarPhantom


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