During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Sasha Demidov.
I don't necessarily think we always have to look at every entry in an entire franchise to see a heinous standard...sometimes you can find two different works in a single franchise that are so tonally different and narratively isolated each from each other (e.g. Jessica Jones and Guardians of the Galaxy in the MCU, or Constantine and Supergirl in the Arrowverse) that comparing them to each other doesn't even seem that appropriate. They share the same fictional universe because we've been told so, but this really has to be concretely demonstrated within the shows themselves for us to consider relative heinous standards. That's my personal philosophy, anyway.
In any case, with Sasha Demidov, he's just an enforcer of Leviathan, and no more. The top dog of the organization, Doctor Faustus, is considerably worse and commits far more heinous actions throughout the series, but he doesn't count because he's motivated by a Freudian Excuse—namely, revenge for his dead brother. That, and the fact that we see a flashback where was a genuinely good person that used his powers for a benevolent purpose. The difference is that Sasha lacks the Freudian Excuse of Doctor Faustus, but his own crimes pale in comparison...so no one counts from Agent Carter note .
Ha ha, well I kinda made a fool of myself. I've been branching out more into Marvel comics (Mainly Punisher, all of Spider-Man Noir, a handful of old Captain America stories and a certain... less than stellar currently running series) but I didn't know much about M.O.D.O.K. Based off of Marvel vs Capcom 3, his brief stint in LEGO Marvel Superheroes, and clips from Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes, I always assumed that M.O.D.O.K was meant to be a silly villain. Had no idea he had so much potential for stone-cold villainy.
Ah well, never hurts to learn new things I'd say.
I figured Modok had potential for a long time.
If only for his name meaning "Mental Organism Designed Only for Killing", with some variations.
And now I know he doesn't count in modern times because he's a joke. If I ever write for Marvel I'll try and make him serious again, reminding people that he is an abomination who we shouldn't feel sorry for.
I don't think there should be a set number for a subpage, it depends how
big the franchise is and how many potential monsters it has.
To Modok.
That story sounds good, but its not as good as the mini series where Modok went to his high school reunion to show up his snobby former class mates.
edited 1st Jun '17 5:01:09 PM by Overlord
The talk about how people were misinterpreting Cinder's new state as a case of Cry for the Devil made me wonder, if there was a case where a villain was shown to be sad about something, for entirely selfish reasons, would that still count as a woobi moment and disqualify them? Say Cinder was shown to be reflecting on how far she had fallen from the powerful villain she was previously, and she shed a tear out of anger from it. Are CM's allowed to be sad about things, albeit for entirely selfish reasons? I know they can't have woobi moments. What counts as a villainous woobi moment? I don't have anyone in mind, the discussion about her from a while back just got me curious.
jjjI think it would depend on whether the story presents it sympathetically on not, what you described above just sounds like It's All About Me.
Oissu!I was wondering because I believe that, sometimes, it can be hard to figure out what the creators of a work intend their audience to feel. Like, if you don't know if the creators want you to feel sorry for a villain or if it's meant to be cathartic (though the latter is much more likely in regards to these characters). That, and in my opinion, Cm characters should not have feelings of any kind. If they are truly rotten to the core, they shouldn't have feelings, in my opinion, so it makes it difficult for me to see them as a CM.
jjjIf we need at least 6 examples to create a subpage, then will somebody create one for Resident Evil? It stands at 7 now: 6 from the games and one from the movies.
Someone edited the The Storykeepers page to include Nero alongside Nihilus on the CM writeup. Cut and messaged them to come here.
to Sasha Demidov. He's creepy, but nothing he does really stands out in how hateful or horrific he is, which again, at least Ronan has going for him.
As for Nero, if I'd been around when he was discussed, I'd personally give him a tentative vote, but I won't actively try and change anybody's mind. If we got a sense of how heinous he could be without Nihilus doing his dirty work, I think he might have qualified.
We've already been through this: Nero is Played for Laughs, Nihilus isn't.

Now now, no need to maek a big dael about peolpe makng typos, fries. .
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!