During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultron.
Lyndon, I suppose.
Also,
Ultron beacause.
I think Ravok's Effort Posts are funnier then my own.
I got a good laugh at the "Freudian Excuse" and "Redeeming features" gag.
edited 30th May '17 1:46:03 PM by PolarPhantom
Brainiac, Shackleton, Red Skull, Ultron
Someone... anyone... please give a yay or nay to my rewrite here
.
Chronicles volume 2 came out and gave a full backstory for Cho'gall. It included enough to put him over the line to me. The most obvious thing is revealing that he had been working for the Void since he was on Draenor and was using Gul'dan and the Horde to help fulfill the Hour of Twilight doomsday prophecy.
For the record, I will only be discussing the main timeline version and not including the actions of the Cho'gall from Warlords of Draenor.
edited 30th May '17 2:11:50 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Found this on YMMV for Persona 5 (Wall of Text incoming)
- Complete Monster: While Yaldabaoth set the plot in motion, these people prove that Humans Are the Real Monsters, and quickly establish themselves among the most evil villains in the entire series. Good thing part of the game is making them realize it.
- Coach Suguru Kamoshida, representing Lust is a former Olympian turned head PE teacher at Shujin High in Tokyo, and secretly a dangerous sexual predator. Protected by the school administration due to his past fame, Kamoshida sees Shujin as his own absolute fiefdom, and gets his jollies extorting sexual favors from the girls he teaches, often forcing one of his male students, Yuuki Mishima, to procure them for him. His male students fare little better, as when they do poorly in his classes he calls them to his office for "private tutoring sessions" that are really just excuses to beat the tar out of them; as a result both boys and girls live in terror of him. Kamoshida also indulges in pettier Jerkassery such as provoking the star of the track team into punching him as an excuse to break Ryuji's leg and get the team shut down as well as leaking the Protagonist's criminal record to the entire school. When, Ann Takamaki, the primary target of his lust, refuses to sleep with him, Kamoshida crosses the Moral Event Horizon and rapes her best friend as revenge; the girl in question feels so humiliated she attempts suicide. Even worse, several details in his boss fight and his Palace strongly imply that Shiho was not the first girl to be raped by Kamoshida, considering how he sees all of the girls on the volleyball team she's a part of as sexed-up faceless constructs, which is basically confirmed during the library puzzle, where he has a whole section of said library devoted to his sexual conquests starting with a book called "The Queen." When confronted by the Protagonist, Kamoshida is so confident that the system will protect him that he types up a false report to have him expelled. Even after the Phantom Thieves steal his heart, he states his intention to commit suicide himself to escape justice, only submitting to arrest after a “The Reason You Suck” Speech from Ann. Selfish, cruel, and an utter bully to the main cast, Kamoshida is merely the Starter Villain and he still manages to be one of the most repulsive people in Shin Megami Tensei history.
- Masayoshi Shido, a charismatic member of the Diet and representing pride, is in fact the head of The Conspiracy profiting off the other villains. He illegitimately fathered Goro Akechi and threw away both Goro and Goro's mother to save his own reputation. Goro's mother committed suicide because of Shido and Goro was left to the whims of the foster care system, resulting in Goro swearing revenge and and planning to get close to him to take him down. Shido is approached by an empowered Goro offering his services to incite rampages within people. Having been involved in the research of Wakaba Isshiki, who found out about the Metaverse, Shido teaches a young Goro to kill and has him murder her so he can steal her research. Shido has a will forged blaming Wakaba's daughter Futaba for her "suicide", sending Futaba into a depression. Later, Shido sexually assaults a woman before the Protagonist intervenes, which prompts Shido to ruin the Protagonist's life in response, later remarking that he's crushed so many people he doesn't remember someone that insignificant. Shido and Goro go on to manipulate the people's faith in the government and the Phantom Thieves, with support for the government decreasing and the Thieves increasing. Once the Thieves steal the heart of Kunikazu Okumura, a patron of Shido's, Goro, under Shido's orders, kills his Shadow, ultimately killing Okumura on live television and pinning the blame on the Thieves, while Shido and Goro— outspoken critics of the Thieves— rise in popularity. Shido and Goro then hatch a plan to kill the Thieves by Goro acting as a Mole, which the Thieves see through and foil. At this time, Shido's other confidant, the SIU Director, is killed by the duo. After Goro loses to the Thieves, Samael— Shido's Shadow— reveals that Shido sees Goro as expendable. When the Thieves confront Samael, he mocks the weakness of his followers and reveals that Shido was going to kill Goro anyway despite suspecting that Goro was his son. Shido's final action before his forced reformation is to destroy his own Palace after Samael's defeat in a final attempt to take the Thieves down with him. He has no Freudian Excuse for his actions, nor any redeeming features, and those aware of his true nature (admittedly only the party and a handful of others), utterly despise him.
Did anyone do an effortpost on those two? I can't remember. Also I don't see how having a Heel Realization keeps them being this trope anyhow considering that trope is when you feel bad about being evil. That breaks the altruistic quality.
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Those were indeed voted up. I haven't played the game but my impression from the effortposts was that it was less a case of Heel Realization and more of Heel–Face Brainwashing.
edited 30th May '17 2:37:01 PM by TommyFresh
They were approved. Someone expanded their entries (here it is from Shin Megami Tensei):
- Coach Suguru Kamoshida, representing lust, is a former Olympian turned head PE teacher at Shujin High in Tokyo, and secretly a dangerous sexual predator. Protected by the school administration due to his past fame, Kamoshida sees Shujin as his own absolute fiefdom, and gets his jollies extorting sexual favors from the girls he teaches, often forcing one of his male students, Yuuki Mishima, to procure them for him. His male students fare little better, as when they do poorly in his classes he calls them to his office for "private tutoring sessions" that are really just excuses to beat the tar out of them; as a result both boys and girls live in terror of him. Kamoshida also indulges in pettier Jerkassery such as provoking the star of the track team into punching him as an excuse to get the team shut down, and leaking the Protagonist's criminal record to the entire school. When his "favorite" victim, Ann Takamaki, refuses to sleep with him, Kamoshida crosses the Moral Event Horizon and rapes her best friend as revenge; the girl in question feels so humiliated she attempts suicide. When confronted by the Protagonist, Kamoshida freely admits his crimes, but confident the system will protect him, types up a false assault report to have him expelled. Even after the Phantom Thieves steal his heart, he states his intention to commit suicide himself to escape justice, only submitting to arrest after a “The Reason You Suck” Speech from Ann.
- Masayoshi Shido, a charismatic member of the Diet and representing pride, is in fact the head of The Conspiracy profiting off the other villains. Having illegitimately fathered Goro Akechi, Shido is approached by an empowered Akechi offering his services as an assassin. Having been involved in the research of Wakaba Isshiki, who found out about the Metaverse, Shido has Goro kill her so he can steal her research. Shido has a will forged blaming Wakaba's daughter Futaba for her "suicide", sending Futaba into a depression. Later, Shido sexually assaults a woman before the Protagonist intervenes, which prompts Shido to ruin the Protagonist's life in response, later remarking that he's crushed so many people he doesn't remember someone that insignificant. Shido and Goro go on to manipulate the people's faith in the government and the Phantom Thieves, with support for the government decreasing and the Thieves increasing. Once the Thieves steal the heart of Kunikazu Okumura, a patron of Shido's, Goro, under Shido's orders, kills his Shadow, ultimately killing Okumura on live television and pinning the blame on the Thieves, while Shido and Goro— outspoken critics of the Thieves— rise in popularity. Shido and Goro then hatch a plan to kill the Thieves by Goro acting as a Mole, which the Thieves see through and foil. At this time, Shido's other confidant, the SIU Director, is killed by the duo. After Goro loses to the Thieves, Samael— Shido's Shadow— reveals that Shido sees Goro as expendable. When the Thieves confront Samael, he mocks the weakness of his followers and reveals that Shido was going to kill Goro anyway despite suspecting that Goro was his son. Shido's final action before his forced reformation is to destroy his own Palace after Samael's defeat in a final attempt to take the Thieves down with him.
to Brainiac and
to Red Skull, through he never appears in the main Injustice campaign, I'm suprised that they gave Injustice!Darkseid a redeeming quality(having a genuine desire to avenge his son), essentially now Injustice!Darkseid is like Ultron, the Joker and Brainiac in that every single serious work must portray him as a CM or a GDV.......except one(Ultron was given redeeming qualities in A:EMS, Joker's relationship with Harvey is portrayed as more loving in DCEU, and TYJ Brainiac is much a more sympathetic character).
So I guess only Red Skull is the only big well-known comic villain with a consistent record of being a CM left.....
I for one like the portrayal of Injustice!Superman, it shows even the best of us may fall the most hardest.
Late
to Azog. I feel he dosen't really do much that stands above the average evil orc and we can't use Tolkien's letters to argue a specfic point against moral agency argument, because if x writes something that proves this group has no moral agency, but goes back on it.....but never implements his new position in the work, it really holds no water. If we're going by this arguement that something the author said that was never implemented in a story or a universe proper is legitimate we might as well disqualify Jake Slash and Bask Om because some side material or author interview gave them a possible mitigating quality that was never brought up in the first place.
Let's say character x is a CM, but the author in his/her notes claim that he or she never saw the character as totally evil or used to but changed their opinion, but then the author either dies before they could do anything about it or dosen't add this new prespective to the story. Does this mean character x would get disqualified? I don't really think so.
Personally I think we need to have solid evidence of an author's position being put into place in the universe itself and not just letters or interviews to argue a point, or someone else expanding on characters with regards to books or multimedia published in the expanded universe. An example of this would be the demons and angels in Diablo, who are shown in expanded universe works to be capable of changing their natures or going against the eternal conflict and this was the point I brought up when arguing for Diablo's inclusion. However, here we just have scattered fragments by Tolkien that was never properly integrated into his canon as a whole by him or anyoneelse.
And I'm looking forward to the discusison on Cho'Gall. Never thought that we would have another Warcraft CM before the void lords, but I think if it were to come down to such, it would be either him or Balnazzar, and the latter can't qualify due to being out heinousnessed by Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras.
edited 30th May '17 4:27:43 PM by xie323
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I mean, it's Darkseid. He might not REALLY care about his son, or maybe he will.
I'll just wait for Injustice 3 when maybe he'll be the Big Bad.
I was almost gonna mention that mitigating factor, but it wasn't relevant to Brains.
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I think there was slightly more votes for him than against him. Which sort of confounds me but if that's the majority vote.
I wouldn't mind if that incarnation did love his family more. It's actually nice to have at least one Darkseid who has a more noble trait like that.
edited 30th May '17 4:03:17 PM by ANewMan
