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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85251: May 30th 2017 at 11:03:30 AM

[up][up]Alright. That'll do for now.

Or maybe just have that stuff in a note? Like:

"Roland Finch, from the 2011 revival note 

[up] Oh, Scraggle had probably just put his. Just wait a few minutes and it should work.

edited 30th May '17 11:04:00 AM by ACW

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85252: May 30th 2017 at 11:04:19 AM

Since people are knocking off writeups I'll do Noah Shackleton's too (he has been voted on and seems done with)

The Phoenix Files: Noah Shackleton is a Corrupt Corporate Executive taken Up To Eleven. He created the town of Phoenix so he could wipe out the rest of the world with the superweapon "Tabitha", which boils the skin clean off of its victims. and, in his first appearance, uses it to kill Reeve and threatens to paraylze Luke, Jordan and Peter from the waist down if they intefere with him again, while also attatching cameras to them so he can track them 24/7. Shackleton had no reason for doing any of this; it was purely For the Evulz, and for that reason he would attempt to kill millions if not billions of innocents.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#85253: May 30th 2017 at 11:05:42 AM

So this is one of my smaller scale character proposals, a character from Pretty Little Liars.

The series focuses on four (later six) female leads, Spencer, Hanna, Emily and Aria who are high school friends (in the last two seasons there's a time skip into their adult lives). The show is a mystery drama in which these friends find themselves being stalked by a figure known as A, a year following the disappearance and supposed death of their friend Alison DiLaurentis.

I won't be dwelling on the many series wide mysteries for this effortpost (maybe I will once I'm caught up in season seven and see if there's any candidates there) as the character in question isn't relevant to the overcarching plot and a minor character in the grand scheme of things, but serves as Emily's Arc Villain in season three. The character I'm talking about is Lyndon James.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

A big part of Emily's character in the first few seasons was her Coming-Out Story and coming to terms with being a lesbian, and she would later get a girlfriend in Maya St. Germain. At one point, they break up when Maya is sent to Truth North, a juvenile detention camp when pot was found in her bag. Maya would eventually return home to rekindle her relationship with Emily, but she's scared of going back because she has a stalker there. This stalker would be Lyndon James, a boy she met and had a brief relationship with and began harassing her. Lyndon would also send her threatening texts and death threats, before in the season two finale, Maya is found murdered in her home. Surprise surprise it turns out to be Lyndon, but at the time an Officer named Garret is the prime suspect.

Lyndon would enter the picture in the third season, this time targeting Emily. He introduces himself to Emily as Maya's cousin Nate St. Germain, and would develop a friendship with her. During this, he fakes anger towards Garret to throw suspicion off of himself. He also befriends Jenna Marshall, being attracted to her and they flirt with one another. She turns him down, to his anger, and it's revealed she saw him murder Maya. Realizing that Jenna saw what he did, Jenna cryptically tries to warn Emily before leaving town. While hanging out with Emily, they talk about Maya, which leads to Emily kissing him. This was a spure in the moment and she later turns him down, explaining she wants to be friends and "Nate" responds in his usual fashion. He then targets Emily's new love interest Paige, luring her with a threatening text before kidnapping her and luring Emily to a Light House. After being seemingly warned by "A", Emily realizes the truth but is cornered by "Nate".

"Nate" holds Emily at knife point and reveals his true identity as Lyndon, as well as a bound and gagged Paige. Lyndon reveals he's been planning this for months and briefly considered letting her live but when decided to go through with it when she rejected him. His new plan is to kill someone Emily loves in front of her, and take someone away from her just like she did with Maya. Just as Lyndon was about to cut Paige's throat, he hears footsteps from Emily's friend Caleb. Emily makes a run for it while Lyndon's distracted and Lyndon gives chase.

Lyndon corners Emily and a fight ensues. Lyndon initially has the upper hand, but Emily is pretty strong herself, disarms and stabs Lyndon in self defence. Lyndon seemingly dies, while Caleb goes to comfort Emily. Caleb happens to have a gun on him and places it down, and while he and Emily are distracted, Lyndon reaches for the gun and opens fire at them. He manages to hit Caleb, who ultimately survives, while Lyndon bleeds out from his wound.

Heinous Standard

Okay, admittedly stalking and a few attempted murders and once successful murder isn't impressive and this is a dark show. That said the show is dark for its drama, and while there's certainly many deaths on the show, this ain't something like Game of Thrones, or Law & Order where rape and murder are prevalent (I mean this once antagonist Jenna Marshall coerced her step brother into having sex with her, but that's about it). The point however is that the villains on this show are not the serial killing type, with "A" and later "AD" mostly preforming psychological torture, and "A" only killed two asshole victims in the entire series. There's also Ian Thomas, from the first season, who video tapes teenage girls and one attempted murder. Pretty much an antagonist actually killing someone is rare, and Lyndon has only killed one with an attempted bodycount of three.

The thing is though, I think the resources thing actually applies here, specifically the same way it applies to Shou Tucker. Lyndon is incredibly small fry antagonist, and while "A" is clearly rich; having access to surprisingly a lot to shit, such creating a bomb, having a freaking house built for the sake of weeks worth psychological torture, as well as followers. "AD" is resourceful themselves, but I'm not caught up on season seven yet (I don't have the channel so I wait for dvd releases). Lyndon by contrast has no resources at all; no followers, no allies, no cutting Lex Luthor a check, no "wonderful toys", he's not even a mastermind or even connected to the "A-Game", he's just an Ax-Crazy guy with little to nothing at his disposal acting on his own. He can't really do as much as the two Overarching Villains, because he's literally got nothing on them. Neither "A" or "AD" have a hefty body count themselves, but are mostly content with stalking and toying with their victims, while Lyndon just wants to plain old kill them.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?

None that aren't made up in his own head. The guys a prototypical psychopath, forming obsessions with women that he himself, and when they reject him he kills them. He keeps up an affable exterior while befriending Emily, getting angry when she explains that she wants him as a friend, because y'know, she's a lesbian. Speaking of, I'm not sure if that would make him a Politically Incorrect Villian, as his disappointment at her homosexuality mostly stems from the fact she's "rejecting" him. He's also considered one of the more evil characters on the show, not so much for what he does but why he does it, as most villains on the show have some sympathetic or redeeming quality about them; he's just a selfish, unhinged young man who seems to perceive his obsession as true love and thinks that murder is the perfect response to a perceived rejection, and calls himself a passionate romantic. Keep in mind the most we get about his past is that he was part of a camp for juvenile delinquents when he first met Maya. He explains that while he was planning to kill her and Paige for months, he briefly considered letting Emily live when he thought he had a shot, and when she turned him down it was back to business, also expressing desire to kill those close to her. He also had a brief crush on Jenna Marshall, but he quickly gets over it and it's implied he'll go after her next when he realizes she knows the truth. Ultimately, he's little more then a deranged stalker who is really Not Good with Rejection.

edited 30th May '17 11:06:27 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85254: May 30th 2017 at 11:06:04 AM

A note works. A late yea to Shackleton, by the by.

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#85255: May 30th 2017 at 11:07:53 AM

Ok, the draft page still says that Scraggle has locked the page. Does he have any powers over it? Is he the draft page moderator by any chance since only a moderator can lock a page?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85256: May 30th 2017 at 11:10:08 AM

Unfortunate as it is, I do not have magic powers over the draft page. I think it's just a glitch (I'm done editing the page)... normally, when other people edit pages, a twenty-minute edit lock is placed over the page so no conflicting edits are made. Wait twenty minutes and the lock should expire.

edited 30th May '17 11:10:55 AM by Scraggle

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#85257: May 30th 2017 at 11:32:28 AM

Anyone have any qualms with me pushing my Amshel rewrite through the drafts page?

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#85258: May 30th 2017 at 11:33:51 AM

Ok, I put Azog on the draft page, so hopefully he can be placed on the correct page as fast as possible, given he was the most divisive CM I've seen.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85259: May 30th 2017 at 11:39:00 AM

Trust me, we've had really divisive candidates before. Hell, even Sauron and Morgoth themselves were pretty divisive back in the day, if I recall correctly.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85260: May 30th 2017 at 11:44:39 AM

I recall Hades being quite divisive as well.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#85261: May 30th 2017 at 11:46:00 AM

The Hatred guy was also pretty diverse in opinions on if he had an actual personality and what not.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85262: May 30th 2017 at 11:50:16 AM

Morgoth and Sauron were divsive?

Forgive me, that's hard to imagine.

I mean, they're pretty much the modern Trope Codifier for the Evil Overlord and two of our big poster boys, up there with Papa Palps and Mr J.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#85263: May 30th 2017 at 11:53:15 AM

[up]Because Sauron had basically no characterization in the more widely known Lord of The Rings.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85265: May 30th 2017 at 12:01:58 PM

@Overlord: Just sticking with the 70s novels for now. Though I ALSO am doing a proposal for David Banner from the novelization of Hulk (2003). He's quite a bit different there than in the film, and while he MIGHT still not count, he's definitely worth dicussion.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#85266: May 30th 2017 at 12:07:16 PM

[tup] to Lyndon and Red Skull. And yeah, there hav been plenty of divisive characters, this is YMMV for a reason.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85267: May 30th 2017 at 12:29:43 PM

I agree Sauron had little to no characterisation in Lot R. Hell, his write up barely mentions the Third Age, and only lists him under The Silmarillion.

Ah, and this must be when GDV was used a lot more liberally as well.

The Dark Days...

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#85268: May 30th 2017 at 12:34:22 PM

Orcus on His Throne is definitely an issue Sauron has in LOTR.

Oissu!
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#85269: May 30th 2017 at 12:34:44 PM

I think the most divisive candidate we had on the thread was The Crusader

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85270: May 30th 2017 at 12:37:33 PM

[up]And now, despite being that divisive of a character, he's the page image for video game CMS. interesting

edited 30th May '17 12:39:35 PM by MahStache

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#85271: May 30th 2017 at 12:43:29 PM

Porky was pretty divisive too and deemed not to count in the end.

edited 30th May '17 12:43:46 PM by PhiSat

Oissu!
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85272: May 30th 2017 at 12:43:55 PM

[up] I read back on that debate and if I was there I would've said [tup]... what he does in Mother 3 is absolutely horrible and any sympathy I would've had for him is gone.

edited 30th May '17 12:53:20 PM by MahStache

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85273: May 30th 2017 at 1:06:40 PM

Suppose I'll say 'Yes' to Lyndon for now.

Anywho, next Marvel Novels' candidate. The second canon CM here, and one of the all-time greats.

Who is he?

The metal menace of machinery himself, Ultron.

In the only novel to be later used as a loose basis for a short Avengers' comic arc, This Evil Undying is a short Novel collected in the tenth Marvel Novel book, called "The Marvel Superheroes".

What has he done?

You all know the drill. Ultron was built by Dr. Henry Pym to be a peacekeeping force, but the mad A.I. quickly proclaimed himself a step above humanity and began a crusade to wipe out humankind.

When our novel starts, Ultron has recently been beaten by the Avengers, however he has new plans to reaffirm his threat and power.

Sending out drones, Ultron has them attack various locations around the world to steal the powerful metal known as Adamantium from said locations, and these drones wipe out ALOT of innocents and military forces in their rampages to acquire the Adamantium.

Later, having used his Encephalo Ray to hypnotize Tony Stark, aka Iron Man, Ultron has him kidnap the one hero who can stand up to him, Scarlet Witch, and bring her to Ultron.

Ultron then attempts to murder Iron Man with a painful life draining device that seemingly kills him, after which Ultron straps Scarlet Witch to a table and reveals he is going to dissect her to harvest her organs and use them to modify his own tech.

The rest of the Avengers arrive alongside a rejuvenated Iron Man, at which point Ultron proclaims that with all the Adamantium he stole, he is creating an army of Ultron drones that he will send out to slaughter the lot of humanity, as they will be made of Adamantium and thereby indestructible, after which Ultron will rule as the mechanical monarch of the world.

Having already sent out one of these drones to begin his genocide, Ultron duels the Avengers, taking sick glee in brutally beating them all, until they manage to fling Ultron into his Adamantium supply, leading it to flow all over him then harden, sealing him away in an impenetrable casing while the Avengers halt his first drone from killing too many people, thus saving the day. Woo-hoo, yay...

Freudian Excuse?

Ultron.

Redeeming features?

Ultron.

Heinousness?

All things considered, he has the highest attempted bodycount in the novels, hoping to wipe out all of mankind on a huge slaughter run with his drones. Couple that with his initial massacres of a bunch of military and innocents in his quest for Adamantium, plus his attempted dissection of Scarlet Witch, and I'd say he makes it pretty handily.

The ONLY thing one could bring up is that his whole "genocide crusade" never really gets kicked off as he would like, with him only getting a single drone out of a planned bunch more out before he is thwarted, but seeing as he HAD started it and was planning to unleash more to sic on the planet, I think it's enough.

Final Verdict?

Probably the least evil version of Ultron to be a CM, but by all accounts, he's a CM in my opinion.

So yup, another Keep of our favorite cybernetic monstrosity (Except you Braniac. Love young, Brainy!).

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85274: May 30th 2017 at 1:10:42 PM

Lyndon I'm sort of... torn on. Maybe bad for a low resources character, but does he actually meet the baseline?

I'll give a yea to Ultrokunk there.

edited 30th May '17 1:13:49 PM by Scraggle

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#85275: May 30th 2017 at 1:10:56 PM

[tup] Red Skull and Ulton.

edited 30th May '17 1:11:13 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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