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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#85201: May 30th 2017 at 9:41:48 AM

From what I read Morgoth was just trying to torture Hurin by destroying his children's lives, it wasn't really clear whether he told Glaurung what to do apart from "make them suffer" or if Glaurung devised how to do it as horribly as he did.

Which is probably a problem relating to agency in of itself.

Oissu!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85202: May 30th 2017 at 9:43:49 AM

I must apoligise, I forgot to thank ACW and Fried Warthog for their comments and suggestions via P Ms.

So...

Thanks a great deal. You helped me make my EP, and I do appreciate that.

EDIT: I can understand not liking what Injustice did with Supes. It's why the end of the first game, with the good Supes taking down and calling out Regime!Supes is so satisfying.

I really like that final bit.

edited 30th May '17 9:46:34 AM by PolarPhantom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85203: May 30th 2017 at 9:45:02 AM

Phi, have you been following Magi lately? There's a potential cut I'm dreading.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85204: May 30th 2017 at 9:49:01 AM

AAAAAAAAANYWHO.

I've got several candidates to discuss in the coming days. All come from the Marvel Comics......PROSE NOVELS LINE!

Yup, you read it right, back in the late seventies early eighties, Marvel Comics released close to a dozen short prose novels detailing various heroes and their tales of.....heroism. >_>

Now, these are NOT canon from what I've gathered, and have no absolute connection to the 616 universe (The main Marvel Comics' universe), despite sharing ideas and backstories from it.

So, we can't attribute crimes from the comics to villains here. However, that simletanously makes it possible for more villains to stand out in these novels, as they don't have literally decades worth of villains all clamoring around to be most heinous.

With that in mind? We've got non-canon characters, Adaptational Villainy characters, and established CM characters to discuss.

First up? The most obvious one. You can all take a wild guess as to who it is. I'll wait.

Who is he?

Red Skull (SHOCKER) is the Big Bad for the fourth entry in the series, Holocaust For Hire (Does anyone else find this title hilariously inappropriate?).

Red Skull is....well, RED SKULL. Growing up in poverty and on the streets, Skull learned how to scrap and bully to survive, and ultimately managed to eventually get an average job as a bellboy in a hotel.

Eventually, about the time he was in his early twenties, he was shocked when Adolf Hitler himself stayed at the hotel, and, when Hitler offered to take him under his wing to train him into becoming a ruthless, powerful member of the Nazi regime, Skull jumped at the chance.

Spending the next few months undergoing brutal training, and sometimes even torture, Skull was ordered and trained in perpetrating horrific atrocities of all kinds, from torture to mutilation to child murder, with the one time he showed a MOMENT of hesitation before killing a little girl ending with him being beaten for showing "weakness". He never hesitated ever again.

By the time it was done, Skull was a brilliant sadist with a gleeful satisfaction for the successful stamping out of any compassion or mercy he may have had, and, donning a mask, he officially became the Red Skull.

What has he done?

Skull was, well, a Nazi, first and foremost, with all the xenophobic mass murder and concentration camp overseeing that entails.

When the hero of the U.S. of A., Captain America, eventually confronted Skull, it ended with Skull being buried alive by a collapsing building, but not before he injected himself with a super drug that slows one's heartbeat and metabolism to near death conditions, plunging the injectee into a coma but keeping them alive for a LONG time.

Decades later unearthed by some fanatics, Skull awoke from his coma, and immediately began making perparations for new EVIIIIIIL enterprises.

Using resources gathered from Nazi collaborators, Skull establishes a new regime for him to control (Never explicitly called HYDRA, oddly enough), and uses it to develop a new superweapon: A sonic cannon.

Using this cannon, Skull begins hiring his services out. Pay him enough money, and he will use the cannon to annihilate any city you want. Call now and get two cities for the price of one!

In all seriousness, Skull is hired by numerous terrorists and warlords over the course of a few months, and, using the sonic cannon, destroys several cities, killing tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children.

Later beating a young soldier to near death with a riding crop just because he got his food tray wrong, Skull is confronted by Captain America in his base, however, using a young woman as a hostage, he captures the Captain and tries to slowly roast him alive inside a huge oven.

When Captain America escapes and begins taking down Skull's base, Skull flees the building, then fires the sonic cannon at his mountain base, uncaring that it will not only kill the dozens of his own soldiers and troops there, but will also wipe out a small town near the base of the mountain.

Luckily, Captain America and SHIELD (Super government organization that works with superheroes) drive Skull off before his cannon wipes out the town, but it still kills most of his minions at his own base, and he flees to his BACKUP base for the time being.

Once there, Skull gives a horrifying speech about his plans to install his sonic cannon onto a satellite, then wipe out London, then Paris, then New York, and keep going, wiping out millions of "disgusting, sweaty humans wallowing in their own filth" at a time before he creates a Fourth Reich, after which he will then begin a new holocaust of all those who don't possess the GLORIOUS Aryan bloodline.

Near the end of the story, Skull captures SHIELD Director Nick Fury alongside two young reporters. Using a miniature sonic cannon, Skull begins torturing the trio, causing them immense pain by sonic-ing (Made that word up) their insides, trying to force them to tell him their plans to stop him, uncaring about the fact the latter two aren't even SHIELD agents.

Eventually, Captain America arrives to rescue the trio and stop Skull before he completes his satellite installation, leading Skull to flee, gunning down one of his own soldiers in the process to steal his helicopter, then preparing to pull the same stunt AGAIN and wipe out his entire base alongside numerous SHIELD agents and his own men.

Luckily, Captain America tags along on the helicopter, and, in a final duel ending in the helicopter crashing into the ocean, Skull is dragged down into the briny depths, never to be seen again. Or WAS he?

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

He's Red "I'mma Nazi" Skull. The only thing REMOTELY resembling a disqualifying feature here is that his backstory, on nearly anyone else, could be portrayed sympathetically, but nope, Skull takes his past in stride as a perfect development into the glorious ruler he is today.

So....yup.

Heinousness?

In succeeded deeds, Skull is unsurprising the worst in these novels. While other villains (Cough Ultron Cough) have more intended bodycounts, no one comes near to Skull in completed, and even his planned bodycount reaches into the hundreds of millions easily.

He's also a Nazi. Yaaaaaay.....

Final Verdict?

Don't you just LOVE Red Skull? Cause I love the dude. A Nazi. With a skull mask/face. Colored blood red. Who acts like Hitler on steroids. And is, even more than Joker or Jack the Ripper, a CM in the majority of his appearances.

Thanks, Stan Lee. Just....thank you. [lol]

edited 30th May '17 9:50:04 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#85205: May 30th 2017 at 9:49:24 AM

[up][up][up]Can't say I agree. I find the very existence of Regime!Superman to be gross for a variety of reasons that are off-topic for this thread. Plus, Batman fanboying. Cause if any member of the JLA was going to resist the urge to go fascist it should obviously be that pillar of mental stability, Batman.

Luckily none of this impacts Brainiac's qualifications, which is why you get my upvote despite my utter distaste for the series.

edited 30th May '17 9:49:38 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#85206: May 30th 2017 at 9:50:33 AM

[up][up][up]I'm a little behind, but if it's Arba I can't see how it's not an Ass Pull. Guess I'll have to go read it for myself.

Oissu!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85207: May 30th 2017 at 9:51:04 AM

[up] Shoot me a message when you do. Interested in your thoughts.

Yes to the Red Skull. Though I should note Stan Lee had nothing to do with his creation...that was Jack Kirby and Joe Simon

edited 30th May '17 9:51:45 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85208: May 30th 2017 at 9:55:14 AM

[tup] Red Skull. Well the hell would these go? A new section of Marvel Comics? The Lit page?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#85210: May 30th 2017 at 10:00:09 AM

[tup] Red Skull. Again.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#85211: May 30th 2017 at 10:03:58 AM

[tup] Red Skull. It's pretty obvious that practically any incarnation of him counts just like Brainiac, Emperor Palpatine, Frieza and Kefka Palazzo.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85212: May 30th 2017 at 10:04:42 AM

@Lighty: AHHHH, but without Lee, Marvel Comics and Cap America would have perhaps never seen the light of day! evil grin

Nothing will change my thought process. NOTHING!!!

edited 30th May '17 10:04:58 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85213: May 30th 2017 at 10:06:15 AM

We'll probably put him on the Lit page.

And, I can't believe I'm saying this... I mean, you're sure it's the same character, right? Because I NEVER expected to [tup] Red Skull but then here we are and that's what I'm doing.

The Papa Palps of Marvel Comics. Which is impressive since he's just some A-hole on Earth as opposed to the Emperor of the galaxy.

I think my favourite "Evil" Superman story is Red Son, since he's still Superman just with Communist ideals.

If I ever get into comics I'm gonna write a mini series where Batman turns evil

that's way better than Catwoman Guardian Of Gotham.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#85214: May 30th 2017 at 10:08:06 AM

[up]Any story using an evil Superman drives me up the wall, in large part because we already have Ultraman. That's literally what he's for. Don't invent some alternate universe Superman; just use him.

That said, Red Son is better than most stories that use the idea, because the core change it makes to Superman to turn him evil has to do with how he's raised. The whole point of Superman has always been that since he was raised right, he cannot be turned to evil, and that's what makes the likes of Injustice so agonizingly painful to me. Red Son, conversely, removes the "raised right" part of his origin. Most takes on Ultraman that bother with a backstory do the same.

edited 30th May '17 10:10:54 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#85215: May 30th 2017 at 10:08:32 AM

Polar, did you see my comment on your write-up for Brainiac?

As for Injustice Superman, I get why that bothers people. Believe when I say he's not at all interesting, no matter what's done with him. But to be on topic, Injustice Superman still doesn't count for this trope either despite his ending in Story Mode.

edited 30th May '17 10:10:52 AM by VeryMelon

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85216: May 30th 2017 at 10:08:38 AM

Gee Red Skull is a CM? Who would possibly have expected this event to ever occur? [tup]

SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#85217: May 30th 2017 at 10:09:52 AM

Ultra Twilight was another sock of Witch Of The Absolute, so they are now bounced.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#85218: May 30th 2017 at 10:11:55 AM

[up]Seriously? Again? You'd think people would have better stuff to do with their time.

Did they vote on anything or propose anything while they were here? If so, let's discount their votes and reexamine any proposals they made.

But to be on topic, Injustice Superman still doesn't count for this trope either despite his ending in Story Mode.

Frankly if they did try to make him count I don't know what I'd do. If it was a bad fanfic, I'd probably invoke that Ron the Death Eater clause we've used in the past, but that doesn't apply here. Or maybe it does. Injustice is pretty much the definition of a bad fanfic that somehow got published.

Pardon my bitterness. You all have no idea how unpleasant it is, as a Superman fan, to constantly meet people a few years younger than me whose only knowledge of what the character should be like comes from that game.

edited 30th May '17 10:14:55 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85219: May 30th 2017 at 10:12:14 AM

[up] [up] Holy crap, AGAIN?! Man, persistent little.....witch, isn't she.

Is banning an IP a thing around here? Or is she using some sort of scrambler? Eesh.

edited 30th May '17 10:12:45 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85220: May 30th 2017 at 10:12:32 AM

@Very Melon, yeah, I totally saw that and edited my write up accordingly.

[up][up][up] Ah. I see.

edited 30th May '17 10:12:58 AM by PolarPhantom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85221: May 30th 2017 at 10:12:49 AM

There is something wrong with this person's mind.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85222: May 30th 2017 at 10:15:18 AM

God, I'm sick to death of that cockroach popping up...

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85223: May 30th 2017 at 10:15:22 AM

When I hear "Ultraman", I think this.

But yeah, I bet that can be annoying. It's as if Red Skull decided to go good or something.

edited 30th May '17 10:18:54 AM by ACW

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#85225: May 30th 2017 at 10:21:20 AM

[up][up]You know you've made that joke, or a version of it everytime Ultraman gets mentioned, right?

Besides do you really want to associate one the all time great Japanese monster shows with a guy who thinks that this and this are appropriate outfits to wear in public? (If you get to repeat jokes, so do I)

edited 30th May '17 10:21:36 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar


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