During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Austin: I'll try to take care of it tonight or tomorrow morning if you want.
Damn. We responded at the exact time.
edited 19th May '17 3:57:26 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Got the write-up finished.
Genma Wars: The Great Genma King, also known as Dar, is the galactic conqueror who is behind all the events in the series, as well as the Maoh King's atrocities. Having already conquered Earth, the Genma King is reincarnated inside of Ran, where he uses his powers to try and have her kill Gin. After he's reborn, the Genma King is taken to the past alongside Loof and Gin and renamed Dar. In the past, the Genma King allowed all the Genmas to transform the world into a totalitarian state, which allowed all the Genmas to Rape, Pillage, and Burn as they pleased. Seeking to destroy all of humanity, the Genma King had genetically-advanced apes place nuclear warheads into space in hopes of turning the planet into a wasteland. During the finale, the Genma King pits Loof and Gin against each other so one of them would become the new Maoh King, which would also lead to the Genma King's travesties occurring once again in a new timeline. Despite his young appearance, the Genma King is really a vicious conqueror who longs to eradicate humanity multiple times over.
That seem good?
edited 19th May '17 6:09:35 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Yes, I will write up Constance as soon as I fully figure it out. Thank you for your patience.
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here'Cause I just couldn't stay away, I'm back, folks. I'll pick up the voting from page 3358...
to Dar/The Great Genma King, The Master of the Black Circle, Ego the Living Planet, Mashtooth, and the Tooth Fairy.
My feelings on the Guardians villains discussion: don't cut Ronan, whom I like, personally, but I can see why others don't. The only MCU villain I found truly underwhelming was Malekith; his Dragon Kurse was way more memorable. Hopefully Hela proves to be a better Big Bad for Ragnarok.
Guardians Vol. 2 was a great movie, Kurt Russell was great as Ego. Great stuff.
Ronan and Ego make for an interesting contrast in my mind; Ronan's the kind of monster who never hides that fact, acting out of malevolence and hate, while Ego's the kind who hides behind the façade of decency, whose crimes come more from callousness than cruelty. Guys like Ego might even believe that there's nothing wrong with what they're doing, which just makes them a lot scarier. Both kinds can be great, I'm just fascinated by the contrast.
With regards to quality vs. quantity, I agree with the general consensus. CMs who just kill on widespread scales are a dime a dozen and pretty forgettable for the most part, but the ones who go the extra mile to make their crimes personal are the ones who stick with you.
edited 19th May '17 6:22:30 PM by DeCarta
to The Master or the Black Circle, Mashtooth, and the Tooth Fairy.
Okay, here is my second and final reservation which I’ve kept you waiting far too long for, the write up for the forth (and as it turns out final) season of Sleepy Hollow (and I apologise in advance for how long this turned out to be). Now for this I have two candidates, one who is pretty much a definite, and one who might qualify or they might not. I’m not sure what the result will be, but it’s worth testing the waters.
But first just as a bit of background, Sleepy Hollow is a very big revision of the story of the headless horseman, were Ichabod Crane is one of the two biblical witnesses of the apocalypse, who is sent to the future from the revolutionary war to prevent the forces of evil from bringing about the end of the world…yeah, it’s (normally) Better Than It Sounds.
Now following killing off his partner Abbie Mills in the Season Three finale (and in the opinions of the majority of fans committing suicide) the show went through a large retool for its last season by having Crane move to Washington DC, and form a new partnership with homeland security agent Diana Thomas. Diana is also the mother to the next prophesied Witness, her eleven year old daughter Molly. Now in Washington Crane also meets up with the Vault, a government agency (of exactly two people, Jake Wells and Alex Norwood respectively) founded by Washington to deal with the Supernatural.
Now despite all odds honestly it turned out pretty well. I only really watched Season Four because I had already invested three years in this show by that point, but truthfully I would go as far as say Season Four was more Season Two and Three done right, and probably the closest the show came to recapturing the magic of Season One. But that’s just my opinion.
Now enough stalling, as our candidates share the majority of crimes I’ve decided to save time and do both of them in one effortpost. So here they are, the season’s Big Bad Malcolm Dreyfuss and his dragon Jobe.
Who Are They:
Malcolm Dreyfuss is an internet tech billionaire, one of the richest men in the world, and considered by many to be a great genius and generous philanthropist. However he also carries one very important deep dark secret, he sold his soul to the devil many years ago in exchange for a lifetime of success in business, and now he’s decided he doesn’t want to pay. As there is no way to get out of his deal, Dreyfuss decides to make himself immortal so he’ll never have to give up his soul. Having spent much of his fortune on trying to find the answer in science to no avail, Malcolm instead turns to the supernatural.
Jobe meanwhile is a demon, specifically a Prince of Pain from the sixth circle of hell, who following the terms of Malcolm’s deal will serve him in any way Malcolm desires up until the day Dreyfuss dies. Jobe is Malcolm’s assistant, bodyguard, enforcer and assassin. Really the guys best described as being a Consummate Professional, it’s just his chosen profession happens to be murderous brutal demonic lord/torturer.
What Do They Do:
Okay Dreyfuss’s influence is first felt in the season three finale, when he sends a bunch of his men disguised as government agents to kidnap Crane and transport him to Washington, simply to gage information from him.
Crane manages to escape in the first episode of season four, having realised their imposters. Meanwhile Dreyfuss carries out the first part of his plan to acquire the one artefact which can provide him with the immortality he seeks, the most powerful mystical artefact of them all, the Philosopher’s stone. As it turns out Washington somehow acquired the stone during the revolutionary War, but deemed it too dangerous for any man to possess so he had cut into four separate pieces and hid them in his new nation.
Through a mystical ritual he steals the head of Abraham Lincoln’s statue in the Lincoln Memoria, as the first piece of the stone was hidden in it. But in doing so knowingly releases the stone’s guardian, John Wilkes Booth. You see in the shows universe, Booth was not just an actor and a confederate sympathiser, but a powerful Evil Sorcerer who as his last act transformed himself into a monstrous demon so he could be sure he would be able to kill Lincoln and strike one final blow for the confederate cause.
It turns out that Lincoln’s wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, who was also his chief of supernatural defence, imprisoned the captured Booth in the marable that became the statue, so as penance for his deed he would stand guard over the piece of the stone for all eternity. Yeah…it’s just that sort of show.
Now free Booth is nothing more than an animistic abomination, which proceeds to murder Diana’s partner and friend Eric, then a completely innocent novelty survivor salesman. As Crane figures, the little piece of Booth that’s survived the transformation and the imprisonment is targeting people who are either wearing or are connected to the American flag, as it represents the complete victory over the south, the sum of Booth’s hatred.
The problem being Dreyfuss released Booth just before the fourth of July, meaning the parks are going to be full of literally thousands of people wearing the flag. They thankfully manage to lure the demon away from the park, and then kill it once and for all before this happens though. While this is going on Dreyfuss sent Jobe to Japan to murder Mr Wong, a Chinese businessman who was refusing to sell to him; a task Jobe accomplishes by attacking him while Wong was on holiday, said attack was so brutal the authorities assumed it had to be an animal attack. Thus Dreyfuss manages to acquire Wong’s business. Having now returned to America the two talk about Crane, with Drefuess happy he cleaned up the mess but overall not caring as he managed to get first the piece of the philosophers stone.
In the next episode Malcolm tries to acquire the next piece by bargaining with a trio of witches, the Dyer sisters, whom Washington trusted with it all those centuries ago. Said witches punish liars (all liars, regardless of reason or servery of the lie) by turning their tongues into snakes which then rip their way out of the people’s mouths…yeah.
They are unwilling to trade, until Dreyfuss reveals to them that their leaders had in fact lied to them about what they are guarding, making them believe it is an important witch artefact, at which point they kill her and make the deal. Now the Dyers do go on to attack several people in town without their leader to stop them, but unlike Booth who was more or less an animal by this point I don’t think Dreyfuss can be blamed for that. He probably guessed it would happen, but he didn’t outright cause it.
Malcolm is also confronted by a congressman who points out that despite Malcolm publically pledging to make all his business run green almost all of his corporations and subsidiaries are failing to meet any level that is sustainable, as well as him recently engaging in an all new building project on protected land. Malcolm however is running late, and having no time for pleasantries, point black threatens that if he doesn’t stay quiet the next thing that his project will did up will be his body.
At the end of the episode much to Malcolm’s delight Jobe informs him that the Headless Horseman is traveling to Washington.
With the headless horseman in town, now after the president’s head (as its own was destroyed by the Hidden One last season, its decided to acquire a new one. As traditionally King’s heads hold great power, he’s decided that the president’s will act as a good proxy). Faced with the issue of being unable to kill the horseman (who is also in this continuity the horseman of death, of the Four horsemen of the apocalypse), the heroes discover that Benjamin Banneker secretly installed a number of mystical protections in his design of the city itself.
Tracking down the only surviving copy of Banneker’s plans to Dreyfuss, Crane and Thomas finally meet him. Malcolm passes himself as simply being an eccentric billionaire who had no idea of the significance of what he owned, and who is happy to loan the plans to Crane. He also sarcastically admits that he had sold his soul, at which point Jobe interrupted them claiming Dreyfuss had a meeting with the board.
After they left Malcolm confronted him pointing out he didn’t have a board. Jobe warned him he was showing too much of his hand, only for Malcolm to reveal that he wanted Crane and Thomas to capture the horseman. Sure enough after they manage to imprison him within one of Banneker’s traps, Malcolm meets up with him and offers the horseman a deal; he would give him his freedom and the president’s head in exchange for the horseman helping him gain the immortality he desires.
In the next episode to try and find out where the remaining pieces of the Philosopher’s stone are Malcolm sends Jobe to steal a map of Ley Lines in the area from the Smithsonian. Alex and Jake, who had also broken in to "borrow" a mystical weapon needed to kill the particular Monster of the Week actually witnesses the event.
Jobe decided to steal it by more or less walking in, trapping a security guard by telekinetically dangling him in mid-air by his neck, then before leaving disintegrated the poor man to nothing with a snap of his fingers.
In the next episode, Jobe managed to track the third piece of the philosopher’s stone which was being owned by a con man posing as a faith healer. Jobe mocks him for having no idea of the vast power in his possession, before murdering him by effectively causing his body to rot. However before he could return the piece to Malcolm he was attacked by a Sorcerer who managed to overpower Jobe, and imprison him. Said sorcerer mocks Jobe, declaring how much he enjoys hurting him for a change.
Meanwhile Crane and Diana piece together their information and realise that Dreyfuss knows a lot more than he’s telling, so they try to confront him. Malcolm continues to play dumb but while doing so, said Sorcerer attacks Dreyfuss Enterprises and locks the building down. The panicking Malcolm sends his entire security force (around twelve to fifteen people) after him despite knowing they would never have a chance, dismissing this by claiming they signed up for the job as his security.
He tries to barricade himself in his own hidden base where he keeps the pieces of the Philosophers stone; Crane and Diana are forced to follow him inside. It is then revealed that the Sorcerer is in fact Ansel, Malcolm’s late partner and former best friend, who Malcolm hasn’t seen in twenty years.
The episode then delves into Malcolm’s backstory (through a combination of narration as he tells Crane and Diana, and flashbacks), it turns out that during the 90’s Malcolm was just an innocent nerdish man who was working on a new type of software in a garage with Ansel. Finally hitting a breakthrough the two celebrated and went into business together (we see the event earlier in the episode as Ansel was filming it).
Success seemed to be guaranteed, but over time problems began to emerge. Due to being the more charming and forceful of the two, quite without trying (which Malcolm outright admits and claims it just made it worse) Ansel became the dominant partner. It didn’t matter that Malcolm did most of the work, or came up with nearly every idea, as far as everyone was concerned Ansel was the genius, and Malcolm was just his nerdy assistant.
Consumed with envy towards his friend, and fury at his work and talent being unrecognised, Malcolm broke off their partnership and took back all his stuff. However as he was driving home that night past the forest, he was bombarded by a series of voices in his head, causing him to lose control of his car and crash into a tree.
Malcolm managed to escape the wreckage mostly unharmed, but the car caught fire destroying his life’s work before his eyes. Falling to his knee’s he cried for some way to save it only for him to wake up the next morning in his home, with everything he lost back in his position. It was then he was confronted by Jobe who told him it was not a dream, but offered him a deal that he would save all Malcolm’s work as well as guarantee him a lifetime of success in business in exchange for Malcolm’s immortal soul.
Malcolm initially hesitated, so Jobe sent him back to the forest to watch his life’s work burn just a little longer until he broke and agreed to the deal. Malcolm then asked what would happen to Ansel, Jobe assured him he would take care of him, and that Ansel would never block Malcolm’s success again. Malcolm then confesses he has no idea what happened to Ansel after that, as he never saw him again.
At which point Ansel actually breaks into Malcolm’s base and confronts Malcolm, using his power to throw him around the room. Its then Ansel reveals the truth to Malcolm, Jobe manipulated the terms of their deal to throw Ansel into the sixth circle of hell, where he and his fellow demons spent the next twenty years torturing him, even carving their names into Ansel’s body.
This however proved to backfire, as once Ansel managed to escape hell (somehow), he discovered he could invoke said names and grant himself great mystical power. Now he plans to kill Malcolm (convinced that Malcolm intentionally sent him to hell), blow up Dreyfuss industries and use the Philosopher’s stone to restore his life.
Ansel tries to kill Malcolm, but is interrupted by Jenny Mills who uses another spell to separate Ansel from his power source. Defeated Ansel instead tries to set off the explosives any way, forcing Crane to kill him with one of Dreyfuss’s daggers. However in the confusion Dreyfuss manages to escape and take the pieces of the philosopher’s stone with him. Following the close call in the previous episode, Dreyfuss manages to track down and release Jobe, and then get his plan back on track.
Having discovered that Washington hid the final piece of the philosopher’s stone in Sleepy Hollow, Crane returns to the town with Diana, Jenny, Alex and Jake to retrieve it. They manage to find it, and defeat its guardian, a Egyptian Sphinx, only for Jobe to kidnap Crane and steal the final piece.
Taking him to Dreyfuss, he reunites him upon the sight of the battle field where Crane first me the headless horseman all those centuries ago, and where he officially died. While waiting for the ritual to begin, Dreyfuss chats with Crane and reveals a dark secret to him about his beloved George Washington (in what is arguably one of the shows best author saving throws) asking Crane if he never wondered why he was able to decapitate the horseman back on the battle field all those years ago, considering the horseman is indestructible.
Dreyfuss reveals that through studying Banneker’s notes he’s learned that Washington made one use of the philosopher’s stone before he had it dismantled, namely placing it upon the battlefield. As the most powerful artefact in existence, the philosophers stone is the only thing capable of robbing the horseman of death of his power (at least while he’s in proximity to it), but still requiring the sacrifice of a life to stop him. Washington intentional sent Crane to his death to ensure the most dangerous monster of all would go with him (it didn’t exactly work due to the same spell that meant Crane didn’t really die but that’s another story).
Jobe confers in Drefuess that while the stone can grant him immortality, it requires an exchange to make the event. To do so it will have to drain the life force of everyone in Sleepy Hollow (which in show is a lot more than in real life, with 144,000 people living their) and possibly more. Malcolm shrugs and reveals he’s okay with that.
Using Crane’s witness blood and the blood of the headless horseman Dreyfuss begins the ritual to grant himself immortality. Only to interrupt by the other attacking them to save Crane, imprisoning Jobe in a mystical lantern designed to imprison demons, and disabling the powerless horseman with a series of Greek fire charges.
Placing explosives around the stone, Alex tries to blow it kingdom come to ensure no one ever uses its dark powers again. However as the ritual half way through, the stone starts to secret a mystical fluid. Having already made his choice Dreyfuss refuses his chance to get out of the blast range, and instead starts lapping the fluid off the ground, just as the explosion goes off destroying the Philosopher’s stone.
While this manages to stop the ritual (after several people in the closest proximity have already died) but it proves to be too late. Sometime later Drefuss wakes up near the blast range. Pulling a piece of shrapnel from his body he is overjoyed to watch the wound heal, realising that he’s succeed in his goal and gained immortality.
After this Dreyfuss disappears for a few weeks to do some soul searching. Meanwhile Jenny recovers the lantern she used to imprison Jobe, which she lost in the explosion. However it’s been damaged, and Jobe starts to break free. Jenny barely manages to get to the archives, and set up enough mystical barriers in time to imprison Jobe before the lantern breaks freeing him. Having him locked up, Jenny tries to interrogate Jobe, but Jobe isn’t interested, though she does get him to rise a little when she mocks him over trying to help Malcolm achieve immortality as that would he wouldn’t get Malcolm’s soul. Jobe then reveals to her that Dreyfuss is in fact still alive but not that the ritual was a success.
Later when Molly has been taken by the beast that was the inspiration for the big bad wolf Jobe offers to let her know where Molly is in exchange for his freedom. Jenny is sceptical to him holding his end, but Jobe points out as a demon he can’t break a deal once it’s made, those are the rules. Faced with no other option, Jenny released him. Jobe immediately disappears leaving behind a map which shows the general area that Molly is in.
At the very end, Dreyfuss Enterprises sub-lieutenants meet up to discuss his disappearance and what they are going to do. However, covered in mud and wearing tattered clothes, Dreyfuss himself interrupts the meeting and proceeds to fire all of them. Meeting with Jobe he reveals he’s had a revelation and has decided to dedicate his immortal existence to a far greater goal than his previous one.
It’s revealed that Dreyfuss now has his eyes on power, he wants to rule America. It is also at this point where he really steps up his game and becomes a much more dangerous villain. In the very next episode we witness Dreyfuss premonition of the future where he succeed in his new goal and has conquered America. He also has the now elderly Ichabod Crane dragged before him. Crane points out Dreyfuss has destroyed the very liberty which America was built upon, Dreyfuss brushes it off claiming it’s better for the country to have a strong permanent leader. Crane however denounces him as being nothing more than a petty tyrant. To which Dreyfuss more or less shrugs off.
Returning to the present Dreyfuss happily tells Jobe of what he saw, and then implements the first step of his new plan, by hacking a popular teen internet celebrity, Logan McDonald, website and putting on it a video containing the symbol of an ancient and very dangerous Djinn, which summons it to Washington.
As more and more people share the video a supernatural plague spreads throughout the city. Said plague causes anyone infected to be forced to travel to the Djinn so it can devour their soul. Anyone who is prevented from doing will spontaneously combust, causing them and anyone close to burn to death. We see this causing five people’s death, with numerous more off-screen including setting a whole wing of a hospital on fire.
Through research Jake discovers that the same symbol was what caused the fire that almost burned Washington to the ground during the war of 1812. It’s also revealed that Alex has been infected; despite their best efforts they can’t stop her from going to Djinn. To follow her, Jake infects himself and leads them to the Djinn’s base, which happens to be the internet hub where Dreyfuss hacked Logan’s website. Over fifty or so infected victims are already there, with the Djinn randomly choosing one at a time to devouring their souls. Though it comes a bit close, our heroes manage to save Alex, and Crane kills the Djinn by electrocuting it.
However Dreyfuss doesn’t care as his actually intention was a success. By spread the disease through his website, he has prepared Logan’s body to be used in his plan to conquer America. In the next episode Dreyfuss has another vision of his future, this one including Molly.
Discovering she is the new witness, he decides to meet up with her. For which he implements an unrealistically complicated plan of including a mystical hex with in thousands of tablets which he donates to schools, on the hope that one of them would fall into her possession. Sure enough it did, and said Hex latches on to Molly’s own feelings of the burden of responsibility and anger at her mother for not telling her everything, and brings her old imaginary friend to life as a dangerous golem, which hospitalises Molly's teacher and almost kills her mother.
Then through an equal complicated series of events he manages to set up a seemingly chance meeting between the two while Molly is waiting on the street outside the vault, and just talks to her for a little while, explaining to her that she is very special to him, before leaving.
It’s then revealed that Dreyfuss has shutdown his company and fired all of his employees. In his revelations he decided that business no longer brings him enjoyment, and this way he can focus solely on his plans to take over America. However he keeps his eye upon Helen Donovon, his former CFO as he believes she can still be useful to him.
Okay… now implementing the next step of his plan in the next episode, Dreyfuss invites Helen to his new base, a lavish home not that far away from Camp David. There he informs her that he admires her ruthless determination and offers her an invitation to be part of his upcoming enterprise. Believing that Malcolm is on the verge of some sort of new great success, Helen accepts.
At which point Jobe grabs her and prepares her body for Malcolm’s plans (for which we hear her screaming but don’t see exactly what he does to her). For the next step Jobe takes a special Chinese puzzle box to the Eisenhower building (stopping briefly to mess with the security guard by letting him momentarily see his true demonic form on the X-ray machine) before releasing a very dangerous Chinese hunger demon into the buildings’ walls (the same one which inverse caused the Donnor party to resort to cannibalism).
This leads to three people’s deaths. One man it kills be causing him to starve to death right while he’s having dinner in the middle of an important meeting, one by forcing Diana’s superior and friend Barbara to resort to cannibalism, and a third who gets eaten alive by Barbara. Jobe likewise manages to track down the headless horseman, who following being wounded while powerless is effectively crippled. Dreyfuss assures it their deal is still place, and reveals he plans to “get the gang back together.”
The team manage to banish the demon, but not before it’s fulfilled its purpose. Stealing a pair of scales from the building’s statue of lady justice, as they have been infected with the demons hunger, Jobe meets up with Dreyfuss where it is revealed that he plans to raise the Four Horsemen of the apocalypse. Thus the episode ends with him beginning the ritual to turn the unconscious Logan and Helen into the hosts for his new Horsemen of Pestilence and Famine, respectively.
Now this is where things get a little complicated due to time travel. We have two time lines, in the first time line Dreyfuss succeeded in raising the four horsemen, even turning Diana Thomas into his new horseman of War. He then used them to kidnap the president, and destroy the US Army forcing the government to make him the immortal dictator of America.
In this timeline it’s also implied he may have had something to do with Molly’s father mysteriously disappearing in action (he was away on tour at the time of the events). Leading to the orphaned Molly being forced into the system. Dreyfuss proceed to leave her to be circulated for a few years, before sweeping in and adopting her.
Over the next fifteen or so years he raised her, lying to her that Crane and the others had gotten her mother killed with their meddling in matters they could not understand, and that everything he did was for the best for the country. Despite claiming he died in the confusion, Dreyfuss secretly had Crane locked away where he became the last man left in Dreyfuss prisons (the rest he simply executed). He also lied that Witnesses were just a story they had told her. He even went as far as rechristened her Laura (to avoid confusion between the present Molly, I’ll just call her Laura from this point on).
Now we get a very good look at Dreyfuss’s world in the penultimate episode, and while it’s not the worst dictatorship, it’s still pretty bad with Dreyfuss as the almighty king, all forms freedoms suppressed or suspended, and him having the four horsemen of the apocalypse as his person hit squad.
Sending all four of them out to wipe out the resistance lead by Jenny (which honestly didn’t seem to be resisting any more seriously than teaching children the truth about what happened to their country), this leads to the slaughter of all thirty members.
Jenny the last survivor tries to talk to Laura, but she doesn’t believe her. However as a last act of defiance, Jenny cuts War’s helmet open with a mystic knife, just before War kills her. Thus revealing her mother’s face to Laura.
(Just for reference, unlike people who willingly take the mantle of the horseman, anyone who is forced into it is pretty much dead from that moment on, with the horsemen just using their bodies as a corporal form).
Realising everything that Dreyfuss told her was a lie, and following Jenny’s last claim that Crane was still alive, Laura managed to find him. Their Crane told her of the truth of what happened all those years before, and admitted while it was now too late to stop Dreyfuss, there was a spell which would allow her to travel back in time and thus prevent Dreyfuss’s rise to power before it was to late.
As Dreyfuss had horded all the mystical artefacts the country in his vault to prevent anyone else being able to use them against him, Laura managed to find the spell and everything she needed to cast it. She was however confronted by Malcolm just before she managed to.
Where she reveals she knows he lied to her. Malcolm tries to sway her back under his control, but when it becomes apparent she’s set on going, he pulls a gun and tries to shoot her. Fortunately Laura manages to get through the portal before he can fire.
Arriving in the present she strives to destroy the totem of war, a flintlock pistol forged from shards of many of mythologies greatest swords, before Dreyfuss can get his hands on it. However this puts her at odds with Crane and Diana, who initially think she is working for Dreyfuss.
All three are confronted by Jobe who kill them for the pistol, but using a mystical crystal she also swiped from Dreyfuss’s vault, Laura temporarily banishes him.
Meanwhile Alex and Jake manage to track down Dreyfuss new hideout through a complicated process of duplicating his assistant’s phone, then hacking his system. They and Jenny investigate hoping to figure out the rest of Dreyfuss’s plans, only for Jake and Alex to get captured by Dreyfuss’s goons. He then reveals he knew what they were up to, and intentionally let them find him so he could figure out where Crane and his gun now are.
Jobe proceeds to torture Jake for information, through a combination of physical pain and giving a vision where he snapped Alex’s neck. He then threatens to really do it unless Jake tells them what Malcolm wants to know. Breaking Jake admits he doesn’t know where they are, but he does know where their information comes from.
Laura tries to destroy the flintlock by throwing it into the eternal flame, but she is interrupted by Crane and Diana. She manages to toss the gun at the fire, but Jobe telekinetically pulls it away just in time, straight into Malcolm’s hands.
Diana tries to shoot Malcolm, but discovers immediately he is immortal now. Laura manages to cause a distraction through another one of her magic crystals, but it barely gives them a heads start before Jobe catches them all.
Laura tries to appeal to Dreyfuss’s better side, arguing he knows he is capable of kindness. Dreyfuss seems to consider it, before telling her that she should know him better than that. He tries to shoot Diana, but Crane pushes her out of the way, causing him to become the new horseman of War.
Dreyfuss admits to being caught off guard by this, but quickly adjusts and simply sets War upon Diana and Laura; telling Laura that he looks forward to seeing her other self in a few years before he leaves.
His plans near fruition Dreyfuss just needs to fix the headless horseman. Jobe however informs him that he has found the answer. Robbing Crane’s achieve of a special talisman he raises a small army of Hessians, who formed a cult to the headless horseman during the revolutionary war, from the dead as Draugur (think Nigh-Invulnerable Zombies).
Having absorbed enough energy from them to recharge the headless horseman, Jobe happily sets the Hessians to burn Sleepy Hollow to the ground as they intended to do back before they died.
Jenny, Alex and Jake manage to destroy a good portion of the Hessian’s with Greek fire (there one weakness), while Laura and Diana manage to use a spell to reach into Crane’s mind and get him to fight free from the horseman’s influence. Succeeding Crane uses the last of the horseman’s power to kill the remaining Hessian’s saving Sleepy Hollow.
Dreyfuss is furious to discover he no longer has a horseman of War, only to be interrupted by the recently resurrected Henry Parrish (the original horseman of War, and Crane’s son), who is very interested in taking back his old job.
In the season Finale, Dreyfuss puts his plans into operation, after first reassuring Henry, sending the four horseman to attack camp David, they slaughter the soldiers guarding it and the presidents entire security team. Dreyfuss then takes the president hostages, and releases a video demanding the countries total surrender to him.
The US military starts mobilise planning to mount a rescue mission, which Dreyfuss happily awaits, looking forward to unleashing the horsemen upon them, destroying them all and paving the way for him to take over America.
Faced with the only way to stop the horsemen being kill Dreyfuss (as the spell he used to rise them bound them to him, it also will banish them if he dies), the team try to figure out how to kill an immortal. Laura has the idea of contacting Jobe, doing so through her final Crystal. Jobe is initially happy to know where they are and plans to rip their hearts out. However Laura appeals to him, asking if he honestly wants to spend eternity following Dreyfuss, pointing out how in the future she’s from Malcolm loses interest in him and he ends up as effectively a glorified babysitter.
Asking if he honestly wants that as his fate? Jobe responds by telling them to go to hell and leaves only for Crane to realise he means it literally. Through a spell he and Laura travel to hell and meet Jobe boss, The Devil.
Striking a deal, Crane acquires the one thing that can stop Malcolm, the philosophers’ stone, it made him immortal, and it can make him mortal again. Having Alex, Jenny, Laura and Jake distract the horseman armed with the vaults most powerful mystical weapons, Crane and Diana confront Malcolm.
Uninterested in Crane’s final plea for redemption Malcolm decides to slit the president’s throat right in front of them. However Diana shoots him, as he’s in the stone’s presence he is made mortal again. Realising he’s dying, Dreyfuss begs Jobe for help only for the demon to inform him that their contract has expired, and now it’s time for him to pay up.
At which point he drags the screaming Malcolm into hell.
Honestly it was kind of Anti-climactic; shame really as Malcolm turned out to be a pretty good villain.
Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits:
For Malcolm there are one or two wrinkles that need to be covered but overall they don’t really amount to much. Dreyfuss does have a solid Freudian excuse, as he was effectively shanghaied into a deal for his immortal soul and his desire to avoid an eternity of suffering is completely understandable. However the lengths he goes to accomplish this rob him of any possible sympathy as he leaves numerous innocent people dead in his wake, with being perfectly to kill thousands just to save himself.
It is likewise further subverted by the fact that after achieving his goal and being guaranteed he is safe, he turns his attention to making himself dictator of America (I will note this is no Motive Decay, his ambition and belief he was for a higher purpose had already been well established before that).
Now Dreyfuss is incredibly Faux Affably Evil, by which I mean he’s not so much charismatic (really he only turns on the charm when he’s manipulating people) as he’s just incredibly earnest in what he does. Let me put it this way, even up until around the third to last episode, after watching him kill countless people in many horrible ways for entirely selfish reasons, the guy seemed so genuine in his talks about how what he was doing would eventually do some good, that I honestly had periods where I believed he really did have some altruistic traits buried deep down (or was outright delusional).
But at heart it’s all entirely hollow. Dreyfuss makes many claims about how he’s helping the country, or the world, and how he has great intentions at the heart of everything he does. But really everything he ever did was only to help one man, Malcolm Dreyfuss.
Now it’s true that Dreyfuss was once a good man (or at least a decent fella), and being forced into a deal with the devil helped shape him. But the thing is that was a long time ago, by the time of the series all his good traits have died or been forgotten about. He likewise had already become a ruthless and utterly selfish individual long before he started trying to get out of his deal.
Dreyfuss does run a variety of charities and such, but overall all of them are more to appear good in public and stroke his own ego than out of any genuine altruism. He likewise uses a lot of them (as with all his businesses) as fronts for his real plans.
Now Dreyfuss’s relationship with Molly is also a bit interesting, it is true that Dreyfuss took her in, raised her and gave her a life of privilege. But nothing he did for her was without an ulterior motive, it entirely stemmed from the fact that as the witness she was destined to try to stop him, so Dreyfuss decided to manipulate her world view so she would have no reason to try. He couldn’t simply kill her, as that would just mean a new witness would take her place (hence why he didn’t kill Crane), one he didn’t know the identity of.
Likewise when it becomes apparent he’s lost his control over her, he doesn’t hesitate in trying to kill her. So it’s safe to say that their entire relationship was just one big sham.
Dreyfuss did also once care about Ansel, even in the present he still speaks reasonably highly of him. But any genuine affection died a long time ago, Ansel has just become another stepping stone in the path of Dreyfuss’s success, an important one but never anything more. While he didn’t have a part in Ansel being trapped in hell, he never once brings this up to Jobe or even seems remorseful about what happened to him.
Now Jobe is a bit simpler. Really he’s got nothing; he and Malcolm have a cordial working relationship, with the two even occasionally sharing banter when things are going well. But that’s it, Malcolm has no care for Jobe other than how he can serve him, and Jobe has no loyalty to Malcolm following him simply because it was one of the terms of their deal. In the end he sets up Malcolm’s defeat simply so he doesn’t have to work for him till the end of time.
Being a demon doesn’t cause him any problems with moral agency. In show there are a lot of different types of demon, ranging from simple creations of pure chaos, to fallen angels who rebelled against heaven and were cast out. By being a demonic lord, Jobe is fully intelligent and capable for his actions. He just really loves hurting, murdering and torturing people.
Jobe does seem to get along with his fellow demons, and he is always polite to them. But it’s a stretch to consider this even close to any sort of friendship. Really its best described as they all share interests (namely torturing, murdering and wanton destruction).
Jobe is loyal to his master the Devil, but that’s only because he’s wise enough to know what will happen to him if he’s not loyal.
Jobe does also keep to any deal he makes, but as he outright states this isn’t a choice, he is literally incapable of breaking a deal once it’s struck. This however doesn’t stop him manipulating the terms as far as he is capable, such as banishing Ansel to hell or fulfilling his deal with Jenny by only giving an idea of the general area Molly was in rather than her exact location.
Heinous Standard:
Now Sleepy Hollow is a reasonably dark series, the main characters are genuinely heroic, but the things they face are really nasty and a lot of people do die in horrible manners. Likewise the show does already have three monsters, Moloch, the Pied Piper and The Hidden One. However I think Dreyfuss and Jobe still manage to stand out.
Now Dreyfuss is one of the shows completely human villains, starting the series with nothing supernatural about him. Thus while possessing his brilliant mind and a vast fortune; he overall has the least resources of any of the series Big Bad’s. Really at the start of the series all he really has is Jobe by his side.
However despite his lack of resources he still manages to cause the deaths of a lot of people, many of which being only the side parts of his real plans. While his plans never reach the scale of trying to end the world and wipe out humanity like Moloch and The Hidden One did, at the start he had no chance of causing anywhere near that amount of damage. By the end he actually could if he wanted to (their not called the four horsemen of the apocalypse for nothing) but he also had no reason to want to, as he wanted to rule not to destroy.
Considering his original plan was simply to gain immortality (at the expense of many many lives) and then to simply conquer America so he could play king of the mountain, I think he more than surfaces the heinous standard.
Likewise unlike every other big bad (heck every other villain even) Malcolm actually succeeded in his plans. He managed to conquer America, mercilessly destroy the resistance and be the immortal dictator he dreamed of being. It took someone literally changing history to stop him.
I will also note that Dreyfuss has a pretty good character arc, starting at the beginning as just a hapless nerdy man, then becoming a ruthless buisnesman who is nevertheless well aware he’s a little playing in this world and terrified of dying, before making the transition in a truly unfettered and utterly selfish being who can and will cause destruction on any scale he wants as long as it benefits him somehow along the way.
For Jobe it’s a little more complicated. It is true he has more resources, while nowhere near as powerful as the demon king Moloch, he is way more powerful than the Pied Piper. However his overall crimes are limited by him being forced to follow Malcolm’s plans. But despite this he is the one who actually causes the majority of the killings, a lot of it is on Dreyfuss’s orders sure but that overall doesn’t matter, as Jobe not only choses particularly cruel ways to kill people, he quiet openly loves doing it.
Really despite his professionalism, Jobe has constant underlying arrogance and sadism to nearly everything he does. He’ll never miss a chance to kill a person in particularly cruel manner, or even mock a person over what they did.
It was also Jobe who started Malcolm on the path that led to him becoming a monster, it was Jobe who had a perfectly innocent man banished to hell where he personally tortured him for twenty years (along with his fellow demons), and it was him who tried to burn a town full over a hundred thousand people to the ground independently of Malcolm.
Thus despite being held back by his service to Dreyfuss, Jobe still manages to do a lot of damage on his own, and stand out as an truly evil figure.
Really they both make a nice contrast, with Malcolm being emotional, flamboyant, and seemingly earnest and altruistic while covering a deep ruthlessness, callousness and utter selfishness. Jobe meanwhile is a calm, controlled and mostly quiet profession who nevertheless is still transparently evil, deeply sadistic and very arrogant.
Conclusion:
Really I think they both count. Malcolm starts the series as just a ruthless somewhat scared man, and still manages to kill dozens in the pursuit of his plans, this in turn grows into a body count of many many dozens more following his transformation mid way through the season, into someone who would stop at nothing to ensure his success, and he did actually managed to conquer America.
Jobe meanwhile was the one who set him on the path to villainy, and was with him every step of the way, enjoying every cruel deed he committed, before finally turning on Malcolm and personally dragging him into hell.
edited 19th May '17 7:15:32 PM by MGD107
I missed the no-doubt extensive discussion on Ego, and I'm sure he's already been voted on one way or the other by everyone, but I'll just give my thoughts. To me he's a
. His relationship with Peter's mother seems like one of those weird, fucked up versions of Even Evil Has Loved Ones that crop up here every now and then. I don't think that we can say that his feelings for her weren't genuine. After he reveals his plan, he doesn't go "And I never loved your mother! She was just a pawn!" or anything like that. Yes, his plan involved her death along with with the death of pretty much everything else, but I think that he loved her as much as his messed up Celestial lack of morality would allow. He does set the heinous standard for the whole Marvel Cinematic Universe, but I think that that only might affect Thanos later, since he'll likely be the only being even close to being on Ego's level power-wise.
I'm sure that plenty of you will disagree, but that's just how I feel about Ego's CM status.
...yes, he had (had is key here) a love for a person he later killed. And, outside of a superficial "it was hard to put that tumor in her head" never indicates he had remorse for. And then he tries to corrupt and/or destroy her son, which is basically the only living connection he now has to her.
This is a perfect example of a villain abandoning their redeeming qualities. It's not that his mind is too messed up to feel love, it's that he did feel love and so killed the thing he loved so he wouldn't love.
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Yeah. That's a big part of why I think he counts and agree that he's a really good example of renouncing good qualities (I often like to cite Griffith of Berserk in this context)- it's not just the character saying that they don't care about loved ones; they actually act in a way that show's they don't care and they display no remorse for it.
No problem.
Jobe is a
. Malcolm Dreyfuss....ehhh, from what it seems like, he had plenty of mitigating factors, but he ended up pissing just about all of them away. I'll give a slight
to him for now.
I don't think that we can say that his feelings for her weren't genuine. After he reveals his plan, he doesn't go "And I never loved your mother! She was just a pawn!" or anything like that. Yes, his plan involved her death along with with the death of pretty much everything else, but I think that he loved her as much as his messed up Celestial lack of morality would allow
It's because his feelings of attraction and fondness for her (never quite reaching truly loving to the point of committing to her btw, that's what he sought to prevent by killing her) were genuine that what he did is so monstrous. Any old villain can betray and kill someone they'd only pretended to care about, but it takes a special kind of f**ed up evilness for a villain to betray and kill someone they'd genuinely been coming to care about, and for that very reason. It's like (again) how Griffith betrayed everyone he'd once even slightly cared about and who cared about him, or how Grace O'Connor deleted her feelings for Sheryl Nome for pretty much the same reason Ego killed Meredith.
Also, you raised a good point there - he was planting the seeds for his Expansion plan on Earth while he was still dating Meredith, and that plan would end up killing her along with everyone else on the planet anyway. He could have chosen to just never go back to Earth to visit her again and dedicate his full attention to his "purpose" and then ultimately she could become just a casualty to him when the Expansion was ready to be launched. But no, he chose to kill her as an individual victim rather than as a casualty, by giving her a freaking tumor so that she'd die of brain cancer. No amount of "messed up Celestial lack of morality" (which might not even be a thing for all Celestials - just him) can excuse that level of needless cruelty and callousness towards someone he supposedly cared about.
'Yes' to Malcolm and Jobe. Oh, and a bit late, but happy b-day ANewMan!
Alright, final Conan proposal. This is the one I'm least sure on, but who I figure still warrants discussion.
Who is he?
The Medusa is the Monster of the Week for the episode Men of Stone.
What has he done?
Medusa is an ancient sorceror who is mostly human, but has a scalp of snakes with the ability to secrete venom that turns all those it touches into living stone, with the people turned still seemingly aware of their surroundings as well.
Using this venom, Medusa made a deal with Wrath-Amon: Anytime Wrath-Amon needed the venom to use in his conquests, he would offer sacrifices of people, often his own troops, to Medusa for the sorceror to turn to living stone with his gaze (He can do that too) to add to his collection of statues.
So, not only supplying Wrath-Amon with the means to turn untold amounts of people to stone over the centuries, but also having his own private collection of statues (Of which we see about a dozen overall, with the heavy implication of many more), Medusa is eventually approached by Conan, Zula, their Phoenix, Needle, and some of Zula's soldiers to ask Medusa for the cure to the living stone venom so as to rescue Conan's family from their imprisonment.
Medusa, first acting accepting to catch them off guard, promptly turns them all (Amounting to about 4 men, Needle, and Conan's horse) to stone except Conan, who manages to flee while Medusa cackles in glee at his latest additions to his statue collection.
Conan eventually returns, wearing a blindfold to avoid eye contact with Medusa, backed by a panther he made nice with using animal-friendly techniques taught to him by Zula, and Medusa proceeds to turn the panther to stone, then rip Conan's blindfold off, proclaiming "Your eyelids are next!"
Before Medusa can perform this lovely procedure, Conan uses his shiny, streak-free shield to force Medusa to see his own reflection, which has the effect of turning him to stone and freeing all those he has turned to stone in his own abode. Of course, those turned to stone by Wrath-Amon in his conquests aren't cured because plot, but eh.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nope, nada. Just a twisted creep who gets obvious enjoyment from turning people to living stone.
Heinousness?
Where one could be hesitant. While he has no bodycount, his unique niche of turning people to living stone is shared only by Wrath-Amon himself, and even then Wrath-Amon can only accomplish this because Medusa is supplying him with the means to do so.
Also, Medusa, much like the Master of the Black Circle, has practically no resources except his own magic, so no problems with "matching up" to the likes of Set or some such.
Overall, he regularly turns people to living stone, having at least a dozen shown onscreen with the heavy implication of far more, turns all of Conan's group (Amounting about 4 men, his phoenix Needle, and his horse) to stone after playing nice to lower their guards, and constantly supplies Wrath-Amon with the ability to turn all those he wishes to stone, resulting in not only Conan's family, but many others turned to stone throughout the centuries.
Final Verdict?
Overall, I'm pretty neutral on him. If I HAD to swing one way, it'd definitely be for him being a Keep, but I'm pretty lax on this one, so I'll understand if he's downvoted for not "matching up" to the Master of the Black Circle or Sharto or some such.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I'll abstain on Medusa. Not really sure whether they do enough bad, from that description.
Here's my next proposal from The Legendary Starfy series, the Big Bad of the third game and Greater-Scope Villain of the original trilogy, simply called Evil. How creative...
What's the work?
You should know what the franchise is by how i described it in my last EP, but I'll describe it again for good measure. It's an 'aquatic platformer' series that really doesn't fit in to any specific genre. Very niche. The first four games were only ever released in Japan, so information on Evil is a little scarce. But I can make do.
Who is Evil and what does he do?
Evil is the master of the Big Bad of the first two games, Ogura, his personage is what Ogura calls him. It's hinted that he raised Ogura and is the reason he's evil, too. This would make him responsible for everything bad Ogura does in the first two games, which is, chronologically, is as follows.
The first involvement with Starfy's family is when he fights Starfy's dad in the past, who then promptly traps him in a magical jar for several years. The first game: Create a "terrible storm" in Starfy's home, causing him to be knocked into the sea, banishes Starfy to the Deep Sea area. and in the second game, escapes the jar by creating ten children asexually (he's a sea slug), and kidnaps Starfy's family. It is confirmed that Starfy kills all his children in the third game (they are the bosses of the 2nd), in which he is given some sympathetic scenes.
Now onto Evil himself. He does not physically appear in proper until late in the third game, but has a large bearing on the plot. He destroys the jar Ogura was trapped in permanently, to give Ogura 'one last chance' (Presumably he means at destroying Starfy's home.) This is Pragmatic Villainy.
We see Ogura talking to Evil a lot, but the first time we see him in the present day it is when he tries to kill one of the main characters, Moe, with lightning because he refused to accept his offer of We Can Rule Together. Moe's father, who worked for Evil, performs a Heel–Face Turn and Heroic Sacrifice, saving Moe from being killed. This wasn't Evil's intention but he doesn't mind.
(Some backstory on Moe: he comes from a very poor family. at a young age his parents had a falling out and his father left his mother. His mother moved to a different, smaller home. Unfortunately his mother soon fell ill and passed away, and it was left to Moe to take care of his three younger siblings. Quite a sad backstory, surprisingly)
The next time we see Evil it's the final battle. To defeat him you need the 42 Evil Crystals, which requires you to basically do a new game plus. By the time you finish the really difficult battle, you only have 41 Evil Crystals but everything seems to be going well, until Evil comes back to life and very nearly kills Starfy and Moe. Until, at the very last second, Ogura pulls a Heel–Face Turn and realizes that Evil is... well... Evil. He pulls out the 42nd Evil Crystal and uses it to finally take down Evil, tragically killing himself in the process. This scene is very tragic and Evil is usually to blame for this game being much Darker and Edgier than the first two.
Freudian excuse, or mitigating factors?
Evil is not given any redeeming features, and is definetly portrayed as a Bigger Bad. When you factor in that he's esentially brainwashed Ogura into serving him, and is responsible for everything Ougra does, he becomes a fair bit worse. We aren't given a motive for why he does this, probably just For the Evulz, and he's not Made of Evil.
I'm honestly not 100% sure on whether he counts, but leaning
. He esentially caused everything bad in the original trilogy.
What do you think?
edited 20th May '17 3:32:39 AM by MahStache
Considering that what he does to people is probably And I Must Scream… I am leaning keep but the fact that all his victims turn back gives me a pause. Count me as tentative keep for now.
And leaning toward no on Evil because he sounds like he doesn't have any motivation so he might be a GDV. Also, I feel he is less heinous form Mashtooth despite having more resources.
edited 20th May '17 1:18:33 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!Damn, I think that's by FAR the new longest effortpost
BTW, I think Constance goes to both Other Media (under the "multimedia" category) and to Disney.
Medusa, I THINK (Medusa's a HE in this case? Huh
◊). Is it made obvious that it's an And I Must Scream fate, or just implied?
edited 20th May '17 3:08:57 AM by ACW

Absolutely wouldn't mind, I know you are just as much of a fan of the books as me^^
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