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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#83676: May 14th 2017 at 7:54:23 PM

Yeah, I read about that.

Also, very recently we had the High Priestess in Season 5 of Samurai Jack. She is pretty much a Drill Sergeant Nasty to her daughters, and she can actually be nastier than the average DSN. She puts her children through Training from Hell as soon as they are able to walk, such as getting those little girls to fight a huge woman. All to create the deadliest assassins.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83677: May 14th 2017 at 8:16:16 PM

Well...when your body count's limited to one person twice over and your daughter massacres a large chunk of a town...

So, my first CM of the night will be from an 80s Hong Kong/American film...it's called Righting Wrongs but was released internationally with the title Above The Law

What's The Work?

Our hero is Hsia "Ha" Ling-chi, a by the book prosecutor seeking to prosecute a pair of rather nasty criminals, including the ruthless crime boss Chow. Then...everything goes wrong....Ha's mentor, a renowned prosecutor, is gunned down in New Zealand, and his case's star witness (With the other witnesses as well) is cornered and gunned down with his wife...in front of their five young children, who are summarily murdered when the assassin blows up the apartment for good measure. Without any case, Chow and his co-defendant are free...Ha, furious, decides to seek justice the only way he can against the advice of Inspector Cindy Si (played by veteran martial arts heroine Cynthia Rothrock) and her superior Wong Jing-wai...but he soon fidns that there's someone above Chow...a man known only as 'Crown.'

So, who's Crown and What's Crown Do?

Let's start off by saying Crown has the witnesses in Chow's case killed, along with Ha's mentor...and had ordered the deaths of all of said the main witness's little kids. Crown is soon revealed...as Sergeant Wong himself, a monstrous corrupt cop who's running the crime rackets on the side.

Realizing Ha could trace things back to him, Wong murders Chow's co-defendant. When Wong confronts Chow at his office, Chow isn't happy with the heat this has brought him, but Chow advises him he'll be taking over from now on...and nobody will be saving Chow from him. The two have a brief fight, ending when Wong subdues Chow and stabs him through the head. The only witness is a young friend of Ha's named Yu chi-wen. Unfortunately for the teen, Wong soon realizes he's a witness....

When Yu delays getting home one night, he arrives to find Wong waiting for him. Yu lives with his elderly grandpa, and Wong has already roped a noose around the old man's neck before stringing him up fatally before trying to murder Yu. One of the only cops who believed Yu manages to interfere and engages Wong in a fight as Yu flees. Wong wings and executes said cop with a shot through the heart. At this point, Inspector Si and Ha have teamed up with a cat and mouse game. Wong sends his killers after Ha and Yu...unfortunately, one of the assassins manages a lucky hit, fatally wounding Yu, prompting Si to kill said assassin in a fight.

Wong is cornered at a hangar by Si where the two fight before Wong can flee in his private plane. Wong proceeds to impale her with a corkscrew, sneering "You want to be a hero? Well, I've got news for you. Heroes die young!" and then leaves her for dead when Ha finally arrives. The film's ending differs, btw...in one version, Si survives. In the other, she dies flat out. Wong and Ha engage in a duel, ending with Wong on the receiving end of an ass kicking. He manages to drive Ha off by pulling a dropped gun and escapes in the plane...only for Ha to grab a rope and be dragged along, pulling himself up into the plane where he and Wong fight again. Ha grabs a tool and stabs Wong through the neck, killing him at last...unfortunately the plane goes out of control...in desperation, Ha dives out of the plane...

And in the original cut of the film? No Soft Water here. Ha meets exactly the fate you'd expect falling hundreds of feet into the ocean. In another cut, Ha survives, but is sentences to prison for the murders he committed. Eight years in the English dub...life in the Mandarin dub. No good deed and all...

Heinous Standard?

Wong is the ultimate villain of the film. Nobody comes close to him. Most of his assassins are nonentities and more extensions of his will. The one who kills the kids is nasty, but hardly characterized enough to count. Every evil deed traces back to Wong.

Redeeming Qualities?

Zilch. The guy LOVES being corrupt, evil and murderous. He even gloats to Ha how they're both killers the law can't punish. He's pointlessly cruel, brutal and enjoys what he does. He cares nothing for his fellow cops, either.

Conclusion?

Clear cut keeper.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83680: May 14th 2017 at 9:09:19 PM

Ragyo's definitely higher up on the ladder when it comes to despicable moms in fiction. Yes to Wong.

Anyways, time for my next candidate. This one comes from the Arthur Slade horror novel Flickers.

What's the setting?

In Alberta, Canada, a farmer named Ernest Thorn perishes in a mysterious fire that claims his home and leaves his twin daughters, Isabelle and Beatrice Thorn, parentless by the side of the burned-out shell of their home. The two are brought in by a seemingly kindly pair of actors named Wayne and Betty and brought to live in America as wards of the legendary producer and director, Mr. Cecil. Isabelle is gifted with dazzling good looks and a natural presence for the stage and blossoms into a starlet, while Beatrice... doesn't so much, as a result of birth defects that have left her bald, disfigured, and riddled with out-of-place birthmarks. In the late 1920s, when the twins are twelve, Isabelle is selected to debut in the world's first sound movie, Cecil's take on Frankenstein. Beatrice, however, has been uncovering some very bizarre secrets around the Cecil estate... and they go all the way up to the director himself.

Who is Mr. Cecil? What has he done?

Absalom Cecil — first name only ever mentioned once in the novel — is a powerful Hollywood executive, a producer and a director of immense wealth responsible for raising up some of the most famous actors in the industry during the golden age of silent movies (Douglas Fairbanks is mentioned to be one of them). He's a man of peculiar habits and enigmatic motives; not even Isabelle and Beatrice, whom he's essentially become a surrogate father to, know that much about him, and virtually nothing is known about where he came from except that he was apparently a poor immigrant from an Eastern country who exploded in fame and power. Cecil, naturally, conceals a dark secret. He's no human, actually. Rather, he's an insectoid eldritch horror serving as a "facilitator" for an unknown, unnamed master, planning an invasion at the hands of the rest of his kind from outside reality. To open the way for his kind, Cecil needed someone "perfect" to die on the other side of the world and bring his kind through the other world, and Isabelle happened to fit that description perfectly. Cecil sent out Wayne and Betty to coerce their single father, Ernest, into handing them over. When that failed, Cecil decided to take them by force... sacrificing his little finger, Cecil creates hornet-like monsters called zebûbs, and sics them on Ernest, ultimately leading to the man's death.

In the present day, Cecil raises Isabelle as a star of his own making whilst slowly preparing her as the conduit for the rest of his kind, keeping Beatrice isolated in his mansion and unseen by the public eye through subtle emotional abuse. Cecil's more... private hobbies are where he starts to get especially vile. I'll list some of his actions here in bullet-form here because they start to pile on after a while...

  • Cecil sets up an orphanage for the pure purpose of having a steady revenue of children to eat, even directly comparing it to a slaughterhouse. Once one of the orphans got a little too knowledgeable about Cecil's feedings, Cecil horribly murders her through the zebûbs, covers up her death as a drowning, and massacres the rest of the orphans himself.
  • To replace the orphanage, Cecil moves on to routinely devouring his own servants by sucking out their brains through a proboscis in his mouth, regularly buying new ones to cover up the frequent disappearances and disposing of his victims' bodies.
  • Cecil sets up one of the biggest theaters (one he calls the Theater Eternal) in the world at the time for the purpose of displaying Frankenstein during its debut. Cecil runs afoul of some business rivals trying to build an equally massive theater at the same time he is... so, naturally, Cecil releases the zebûbs on all the people working on it, poisoning all of them and leaving them envenomed and in constant agony due to the zebûbs' poison. Two of the men die.
  • One more detail simply to escalate his cruelty... Cecil keeps a large, hulking brute as his personal manservant named "Mongo." Mongo's completely mute, due to the fact Cecil cut out his tongue for no apparent reason.

In the midst of all this, Cecil devours a reporter who talks with Beatrice and paying off the police to look the other way. After the disappearance of the reporter, Beatrice gets rightfully suspicious and investigates, going into Cecil's personal cottage and accidentally getting stung by the zebûbs in the process. Cecil finds out about her snooping around and confronts her directly about it... torturing the kid by jamming his finger inside her sting wound and fingering it, causing Beatrice horrible pain until she confesses. At the same time, Isabelle is finally called for the shooting of Frankenstein. Cecil's intending to have Isabelle scream in the climactic scene to display the capabilities of the very first usage of sound in film, while at the same time paralyzing everyone else who hears it in time for the invasion. To make sure Isabelle gets the scream just right, Cecil Mind Rapes her with horribly imagery during the shooting, which ultimately makes Isabelle pass out from fatigue and terror. Frankenstein debuts and is a roaring success. Cecil takes this as action to move.

Beatrice, while poking around Cecil's cottage for a second time, finally uncovers the gruesome truth about him when she finds his study decorated with human body parts, including a dead, disembodied fetus. Shortly after this, Beatrice witnesses Cecil devour a servant with her own eyes. Deciding enough is enough, Beatrice goes back to Isabelle to reveal everything. Unfortunately, Cecil's waiting for her. Cecil merrily confesses everything about himself and reveals his ultimate goal... for some unspoken reward at the hands of his master, Cecil is going to build thousands of theaters in the style of the Theater Eternal and let his kind pour in to overrun and devour all humanity. He also casually reveals Beatrice was never supposed to survive the fire which killed her father... Cecil was intending to kill both Ernest and Beatrice whilst she was still an infant, only sparing Beatrice when she was found alive alongside Isabelle for the purpose of using her as a tool.

Cecil takes Beatrice away to the Theater Eternal and casts aside his two remaining minions at this point... savagely murdering Mongo for helping Beatrice and essentially letting go Wayne, utterly breaking the man and destroying his life. In the final confrontation, Cecil attempts to use a film projector to project another world entirely, where he tries to force Beatrice to watch as another member of his kind — Cecil's own twin — horrifically kills Isabelle and gains passage into the world. Thankfully, Beatrice and Isabelle manage to thwart the invasion in whole and Isabelle drags both Cecil and his twin into the other world at the same time the projector's destroyed, leaving Cecil stranded in the other world forever.

Any mitigating factors?

Nope. Cecil's agency is completely in check for an eldritch horror; he reveals he can perfectly feel human emotion, but simply dismisses it as "sentimentality is useless", and he's got a definitively selfish motive for trying to facilitate the invasion in general. While we never learn what exact reward Cecil's actually aiming for, he's still clearly a self-serving, child-eating monster with zero redeeming qualities whatsoever, treating both of his surrogate daughters as tools and everyone else as pawns he throws away at his own leisure.

Overall? Cecil's a people-eating monster who devours an entire orphanage full of children, arranges many horrible murders and attempted murders — of children included — and raises the child of a man he killed for the sheer purpose of utilizing her as a tool to unleash the rest of his kind in droves on the world. Very much heinous enough.

Conclusion?

Easy keep.

Thoughts?

edited 15th May '17 12:32:50 AM by Scraggle

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#83681: May 14th 2017 at 9:11:01 PM

[tup] Cecil and Wong

The worst CM mom in my opinion would have to be Ragyo

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#83684: May 14th 2017 at 9:26:49 PM

Handy 'Yes' to both Wong and Cecil.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#83687: May 14th 2017 at 9:53:58 PM

Oh not again. Darn shame, guy was a phenomenal actor. Gideon Malick, Senator Roark, Joshua Foss....May he Rest in Peace.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83688: May 14th 2017 at 10:01:04 PM

Yes to Absalom Cecil.

Now, before I get to more Kung Fu and martial arts films...Ravok, Scraggle and I are doing a watch through of a lot, so expect a fair few keepers....It's time for a fantasy novel one,...a trilogy by Victor Milan, with one book left to go.

The work concerns the world of Paradise. Food is plentiful, the land is beautiful, nobody dies of old age, free love is encouraged....it's, well...Paradise. But not all is well there, as strife does exist between kingdoms. There's a lot of cutthroat politics, war and...a slight issue of ancient Gods returning to not exactly like what humanity's been up to, resulting in superpowered beings called The Grey Angels ready to facilitate utter genocide of humanity....few believe in them, and our main characters are a betrayed mercenary named Karyl, the heroic soldier Jaume who is stuck fighting for an Emperor he doesn't respect, and his beloved, the emperor's daughter Melodia who falls victim to a conspiracy against the throne

Oh, and did I forget to mention that the soldiers of this world ride fucking dinosaurs? Welcome to The Dinosaur Lords

Let's talk about our villain: Father Tavares

Who Is Tavares?

Tavares is a priest drafted to be the Papal Legate (Religious figurehead type position) in Jaume's Army of Corrections, an army made to fight injustice across the Empire. Unfortunately, while Jaume is a dashing, heroic soldier with a sense of chivalry...Tavares is a ruthless fanatic who preaches the Army of Correction must be a brutal force that slaughters any heretics and sinners. Which is a roundabout way of saying "anyone Tavares dislikes." Though Jaume attempts to quell Tavares' attempted uprisings and such, Tavares eventually convinces a large portion of the Army of Correction to attack the city of the corrupt Duke Leopoldo, even after the city, Terraroja, had surrendered to the Army, and Tavares has the troops hang Leopoldo, rape and murder his wife, then carry out the same on dozens more servants and villagers before setting the castle aflame and pillaging the villagers' food supplies.

The utter weakness of the Emperor Felipe takes its toll. A conspiracy takes place and Melodia is imprisoned and raped by the vicious commander Falk before being rescued by her maid Pilar and fleeing to parts unknown. Tavares? Has wheedled his way into becoming one of Felipe's top advisers. Now the Cardinal of the Imperial Army, Tavares takes part as one of the three driving forces behind the Crusade: A mass slaughter of "heretics" and those who MIGHT have turned from the Creators' ways, so as to prevent a "Grey Angel Crusade", an event where, if corruption and heresy run too thick throughout the Empire, the Grey Angels will lead a huge massacre of most of the kingdom to "cleanse" it.

Tavares, along with Falk and Felipe, goes absolutely NUTS. Rallying the Imperial Army, Tavares and friends go on a horrific slaughter run across the kingdom, with just one notable event entailing the butchering of thousands of peasants and villagers who may be heretics (Tavares takes a spray and pray solution to this), while leaving dozens of innocent civilians hanging from trees, flayed but still alive. Tavares continues his psychotic preachings and leads other massacres in the Imperial Army as well, constantly riling the troops up into a rape-and-murder lusting frenzy before siccing them on a village.

The Big Bad of the series, however thus far is the Grey Angel Raguel...and Raguel is intending to begin his crusade anyways...one way Raggy does this is to mind control tons of people into being his worshipers while converting others into ravenous zombies and sending them across the land. Falk and Felipe realize what's at stake and they and Jaume rally the army to fight against the Grey Angel Crusade. Tavares? Tavares says clearly that he is 'safe' as his murders were just killing those who didn't matter at all, and tries to sabotage attempts to fight Raguel to allow the Grey Angel to begin his genocide crusade. Tavares deserts the army as a result. When the Imperial Army is preparing to face Raguel for good and all, Tavares rides up and begins calling for the army to submit to Raguel and face his punishment. Felipe strips Tavares of his office. Tavares's response? He rides for Raguel, proclaiming he'll join the Grey Angel and assist in the annihilation of the entire Empire.

UNFORTUNATELY for Tavares, Raguel does not care for Tavares's help and has no intention of accepting it...and promptly feeds the bastard to his zombie servitors.

Heinousness?

So, for a book with Knights Riding Fucking Dinosaurs...this is pretty dark in terms of deeds. Backstabbing, murder, intrigue, rape, etc...but Tavares really carves out a niche with the highest mortal body count you can think of in the series. For a guy with limited resources, he's the worst person in the damn book, and is the nastiest next to Raguel...given Raguel is a powerful god incarnate, that's impressive.

I'd actually propose Raguel, but he's still alive and we've yet to see his fellow Grey Angels in action to see if he differs from his brethren enough.

Redeeming Qualities?

Zilch. Tavares is a violent religious fanatic and hateful bastard who's also a hypocrite as he commits sins left and right, while excusing it as himself being oh-so pure that they aren't really sins. He's a fanatical, hypocritical Knight Templar who either kickstarts or takes full part in some of the worst mass murder and rape in the story. Add that to his attempts to basically offer up the kingdom on a silver platter to Raguel, and Tavares sticks out for such a minor villain in the story.

Conclusion?

Keep him. And once more: Knights riding fucking dinosaurs.

EDIT: Awwww man...RIP to Powers Booth. Terrific actor. He will be missed.

edited 14th May '17 10:02:51 PM by Lightysnake

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#83690: May 14th 2017 at 10:11:14 PM

And Keep Tavares. HUGE scumbag, that one.

And seriously, KNIGHTS ON DINOS. Love how the trope page basically proclaims "You're enjoyment of the books will hinge entirely on your thoughts of the latter sentence".

edited 14th May '17 10:12:49 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#83691: May 14th 2017 at 10:11:44 PM

[tup] Tavares.

Well....May 15th. My birthday. Another year of inching closer to death.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#83692: May 14th 2017 at 10:12:23 PM

Falk sounds like a nasty customer as well, though it sounds like he pulls an Evil Versus Oblivion.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83693: May 14th 2017 at 10:14:10 PM

I forgot to mention. Falk is loathsome, and a scumbag rapist, but he has redeeming qualities...he has a complicated relationship with his mother, but he does love her.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#83694: May 14th 2017 at 10:18:59 PM

[up] This. Unless something MAJORLY insane crops up in the final novel, Falk does have his Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas to disqualify him, despite his otherwise deplorable and hateable personality (Seriously, screw this guy).

And Happy B-Day, Austin!

edited 14th May '17 10:27:36 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#83696: May 14th 2017 at 10:40:42 PM

That's a real shame about Boothe Powers.

Happy Birthday Austin DR.

[tup] To Tavares, Robert, Marosi, Olivier, Betruger, Sutcliffe and Cecil.

Anyway, I have yet another Star Trek video game example worth considering, the Big Bad of Star Trek Bridge Commander:

Who is Legate Matan? What has he done?

Legate Matan is the leader of a powerful military faction in the Post Dominion War Cardassian government, called House Arterius. Matan manages to make contact with a powerful, but xenophobic species known as the Kessok, who just want to be left alone. Matan convinces the Kessok that the Federation wants to attack them and gets their help in building a new high tech Cardassian military fleet. Matan claims this fleet exists just to protect the Kessok's borders, but he has more sinister purposes in mind.

Matan experiments with Kessok Solarformers, devices that change a sun's composition in order to make planets more suitable for colonization. While trying to weaponize a Solarformer, Matan accidentally causes a sun to go super nova, destroying a Federation colony and causing massive damage to two other colonies. Even though this is accident, Matan really doesn't seem to care about the lives he wiped out and has his ships attack any ship sent to investigate this event, so no one will discover his involvement in this disaster.

Matan's new Cardassian fleet starts to go on a rampage, attacking any non Cardassian ship in the sector, destroying Federation, Romulan and Klingon ships in the process. Matan's forces also try to destroy a Ferengi ship, to cover up the fact that the Ferengi ship in question stole and then sold him two Romulan cloaking devices. Matan's forces also try to destroy a Federation space station, endangering thousands of lives in the process.

Eventually Matan's forces just declare war on the Federation and step up their attacks on non Cardassian ships in the sector, killing hundreds, if not thousands in the process.

Anyway, to make a long story short, a Kessok captain makes contact with your starship and explains the situation. Matan has another Solarformer and is keeping it near a Kessok colony. The Kessok captain has discovered Matan's treachery and wants you to help save his people from his evil schemes.

When your ship confronts Matan, he declares the Kessok colony Cardassian territory and has his forces attack. When his forces are defeated, Matan, unhappy his dreams of conquest have been thwarted, plans to cause the sun in the solar system to go super nova, killing you, his supposed Kessok allies and his own forces.

Anyway your crew manages to disarm the device and Matan's ship ends up being destroyed, when you force it to enter the sun.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

I think so, even if blowing up the first solar system was accidental (he does not feel bad about it, at all), his second attempt at cosmic mass murder was intentional. Factor into this all the starships he managed to destroy, his body count is the thousands to millions, with an attempted body count of millions to billions.

He is particularly scuzzy due to his treachery though, tricking the Kessok into thinking he is their friend and the Federation are their enemies, then trying to murder to millions of them (not mention killing most of his own men) in a fit of pique is pretty awful.

I think he is pretty bad for a Star Trek villain

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

No way.

Most of the qualities that make Cardassian villains redeeming, like having loved ones, are not present in Matan.

Heck, Matan is active in the post Dominion War Era after the evil military regime that controlled Cardassia fell, so he can't even fall back on the "Just Following Orders" excuse previous Cardassian villains tried to use to justify their actions (Dukat seemed fond of that one). Matan seems to actively miss the old Cardassian regime and wants to rebuild it, with him as leader.

Matan is a fascist lunatic who misses the brutality of the old Cardassian regime and a power mad psychopath who will kill millions to fulfill his desire for conquest.

Final Verdict?

I think he counts.

edited 15th May '17 10:49:35 AM by Overlord

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#83698: May 14th 2017 at 10:49:42 PM

[tup]Tavares. Knights on dinosaurs... Jousting just got interesting.

[tup] Matan, too.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#83699: May 14th 2017 at 10:50:10 PM

Dark Austin DR, dark. Happy Birthday though! My friend's birthday is today too!

Yeah, I'm sad about Powers Boothe too. That's two Agents of SHIELD actors we lost this year. Really sucks. To think, if not for his brother and daughter, Malick would have likely been a yes and he'd have two!

So Alan Rickman has three to his name now?

edited 14th May '17 10:51:42 PM by futuremoviewriter

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

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