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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#83627: May 14th 2017 at 12:58:01 AM

[tup] Lord Sutcliffe. Clearly one of the more disgusting villains I've seen here...

And [tup] Malcom Betruger.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83628: May 14th 2017 at 1:14:37 AM

[tup] White Lotus Chief (who is totally Pai Mei). Doesn't sound like the revenge thing is mitigating enough.

[tup] Sutcliffe, I THINK. "Sutcliffe would use the feces to make bricks for the buildings of London". That's a very...UNIQUE action among candidates.

[tup] Betruger (voiced, BTW, by Philip L. Clarke, who also voiced Baron Dark).

edited 14th May '17 1:14:48 AM by ACW

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#83629: May 14th 2017 at 2:55:52 AM

I have a question about Offscreen Villainy and a certain Complete Monster I'm thinking of. From Harlan Coban's The Five (which doesn't actually have a trope page, surprisingly), we have Jakob Marosi, a serial child molester and killer, who lures the children then films each of his victims on tapes labeled 'Track, Pain, Kill'. He's easily heinous enough to qualify as he sort of relishes doing this and when he confesses he appears to have zero remorse. It's made worse when he offers to take the main characters to the site of where one of the children was apparently killed, but it turns out to be a completely different child. He just wanted to get out of jail. He was always ten steps ahead. Another... strange thing about him is that a family is seemingly brainwashed to think of him as a god. They believe he was possessed while commiting these actions, and have a shrine to him in their house. This is sort of a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment.

The one thing that may prevent him from qualifying, though, is that these child rapes and murders take place in the past, and, as such, are not shown directly. I'm not sure if this would make him no longer count, as the effects of his actions are quite clearly shown throughout the series, and to be honest I don't think they would really want to show child rape and murder on a show that airs at 9 PM. Does this count as Offscreen Villainy, or does them showing what his actions have done mitigate that?

If this is received well, I could do a proper effortpost, but I'll wait on people's thoughts. The Five is a really good, underrated thriller by the way, you should watch it.

edited 14th May '17 2:57:27 AM by MahStache

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83630: May 14th 2017 at 4:02:07 AM

If we see the effects, that's PROBABLY enough.

BTW, I was asking earlier about moving Feng Shen Ji and the work with Aji Tae to Other Media. That question still stands, but I found this under Bai Lian's character page:

  • Heel–Face Door-Slam: After their final fight, Bai Lian has a revelation and realizes that he should reform his ways. Then Ah Gou immediately kills him.

Lighty?

n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#83631: May 14th 2017 at 4:16:08 AM

@Hamburger Time: The thing is, we can't determine if the Great Leader is a legit CM due to the amount of Offscreen Villainy and his past is shrouded in mystery, which is very tricky.

edited 14th May '17 4:24:28 AM by n3xus

This is all Zi-O's fault!
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#83632: May 14th 2017 at 4:35:32 AM

To [tup] the White Lotus Chief, Lord Sutcliffe, and Doctor Malcolm Betruger.

Abstaining on Oliver.

By the way, I created a page for The Power (1968) (yeah I forgot the brackets, anyone know how you remain a page?) so if you could link Adam Hart to it, I would appreciate it.

I should also have my final (knock on wood) Grimm effortpost up sometime tomorrow. Sorry its taken so long.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#83633: May 14th 2017 at 5:02:44 AM

I suppose I'll abstain on Sutcliffe. He's heartless, yes, driven by greed, a superiority complex over those less fortunate than him while having the gall to claim his fuel source -the poop of that big fish thing- will help the country. It's just... I dunno. I'll reread the EP. Maybe I'll change my mind.

[tup] Betruger as well.

Also unsure on Oliver.

EDIT: I suppose I'll [tup] Sutcliffe and Olivier as well, thinking on it more.

But there's a mistake, I think, in Sutcliffe's EP.

See, those bricks?

They burn way hotter than coal.

The man was using Human Resources as an alternative fuel. He still seems to only BARELY pass Doctor Who's heinous standard, so I can imagine flip flopping on him.

edited 14th May '17 5:12:58 AM by PolarPhantom

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#83634: May 14th 2017 at 5:18:54 AM

Unsure on Oliver.

[tup] White Lotus Chief.

[tup] Sutcliffe (although I'll admit to face palming at the literal shit bricks).

And [tup] Beturger.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#83635: May 14th 2017 at 5:37:00 AM

[tup] to the White Lotus Chief, Sutcliffe, Bertruger, and Olivier.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#83636: May 14th 2017 at 6:11:15 AM

Yes to White Lotus Chief, Sutcliffe, and Betruger.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#83637: May 14th 2017 at 6:48:18 AM

@ MovieFan2000 He was apparently removed because he had a wife, and the troper thought their relationship was normal. They seemed to be forgetting that the FBI agent told her that she only existed in his life as a cover for his murderous outings.

edited 14th May '17 6:55:13 AM by Stellarvore

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#83638: May 14th 2017 at 6:53:52 AM

OK, here's the EP for Jakob Marosi.

What's the work?

The Five is a crime drama/thriller that aired on Sky 1 in 2016, created by the rather popular US author Harlan Coben. It centers around four childhood friends, called Mark, Danny, Slade, (no, not that Slade), and Pru reuniting again after 20 years due to new evidence coming out about Mark's brother Jesse, who has been missing for 20 years. Jakob Marosi may not be directly involved in the present day plot, but he appears enough and has a large bearing on the plot.

Who is he and what has he done?

Marosi is a serial child molester and killer, with 5 victims from the past (the sixth was Jesse, he got away because his dad came along just in time. Marosi then ran away. He's a coward) but not just your typical one. His method of doing things is strange, to say the least. To start with, Marosi lures the children to him, then he molests the child. After that, he kills the child.

Oh and did I mention he puts this all on tapes, labeled 'Track, Pain, Kill'? He never shows any remorse for his actions in the present day the series takes place, at all. In the present day, he tells Mark that he can help him with finding Jesse's dead body, as he claims he knows where it is, but when he takes Mark and another policelady there it turns out that the skeleton was a different one of his victims. He laughs about this.

Another one of his crimes, possibly the strangest, is a family that seems to worship him like a god. They have a shrine to Marosi in their closet, and claim that while he was doing these horrible things, he was possessed. This is more of a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment than anything, as it really sticks out in a relatively grounded, yet dark, show.

Heinous standard of the series

The Five operates on a Black-and-Gray Morality. The good guys all have flaws: Pru is an alcoholic, Mark is obsessed with finding Jesse even after 20 years. But none of them are flat out as vile as Marosi, as he takes a sort of sadistic pleasure in what he's done to these children and never shows any remorse, even when confessing that he killed Jesse (which is a lie, Jesse is alive). He pretends to be sympathetic when showing Mark and the policelady Jesse's death site, but it was all a lie, so he could get out of jail for a little bit. He's a pyscho.

Verdict

From me, at least, it's a definite [tup]. when watching The Five as it aired, this character stuck out to me as being an utter bastard.

edited 14th May '17 7:44:30 AM by MahStache

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#83639: May 14th 2017 at 7:15:24 AM

Yeah, Chrome Skull's relationship with his wife was purely manipulative.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#83641: May 14th 2017 at 7:46:10 AM

If I remember correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, Marosi ends the series where he began it: in jail. That's all the punishment he gets.

edited 14th May '17 8:00:19 AM by MahStache

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#83642: May 14th 2017 at 7:54:39 AM

Yeah, no, [tup] Marosi.

Thinking on Sutcliffe more, I'm more inclined to firmly support his inclusion. When we see the factory, we see rather a lot of those bricks, along with the scope of the operation.

At least hundreds must have been killed to make this a viable enterprise, and his final action would have killed hundreds (more likely thousands) of people, which is actually really bad for a human villain. The worst human was probably Mrs Gillyflower, and she had much higher resources.

EDIT: A Karma Houdini is someone who completely gets away with everything, so being put back in jail means he is not one. Even if he deserved worse.

edited 14th May '17 7:56:07 AM by PolarPhantom

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#83644: May 14th 2017 at 8:21:31 AM

Yeah, Jakob Marosi seems like a [tup].

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#83646: May 14th 2017 at 10:18:10 AM

Betruger. Couldn't make it any more obvious, could yoo, writers? grin

edited 14th May '17 10:18:26 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83647: May 14th 2017 at 10:42:39 AM

Marosi sounds a keep. Same to Sutcliffe... even for this thread, that's a damn unique crime.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#83648: May 14th 2017 at 11:14:09 AM

Having seen the episode, I give a [tup] to Sutcliffe

[tup] Betruger and Marosi too

edited 14th May '17 11:14:21 AM by Silverblade2

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#83650: May 14th 2017 at 12:51:46 PM

[tup] Marosi

Yeah how they mold the feces into bricks and Bill actually smelling one still makes Sutcliffe's crimes unique, wether he uses them to build buildings or burn for fossil fuels.

Now then Today's Mother's Day so I'm going to spend the rest of the day with my mother, so the write up will be posted this evening at the earliest or tomorrow.

edited 14th May '17 1:09:04 PM by G-Editor

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