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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#83526: May 12th 2017 at 5:40:31 PM

[up][up] By the way, there's an error in the current Stryker writeup. The name of the mutant he manipulated was Icarus, not Angel.

I'm such a geek for knowing that...

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#83527: May 12th 2017 at 5:47:44 PM

[tdown] Alonzo Quinn. Again, heinous standard.

[tup] Maoh King though.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#83528: May 12th 2017 at 5:53:29 PM

I previous submitted Skull and Van Vogt from Cyborg 009 as examples, though they were in the incorrect format. Hopefully, now that I'm using the apparent correct format, these suggestions will be accepted.

Skull:

What is the work?

Cyborg 009 is a manga by Shotaro Ishinomori, who is also the creator of Kamen Rider and numerous other works. Cyborg 009 was began being published in the 1964 and was later adapted into an anime in 2001.

The story follows the 00 Cyborgs, a team of nine people who were abducted and turned into cyborgs by Black Ghost, a nefarious arms dealing organization seeking to start another world war so they can profit from it. With the help of Dr. Gilmore, a former Black Ghost scientist, the nine cyborgs are able to escape. Led by their most advanced model, 009, the cyborgs set off to stop Black Ghost's plans for world domination.

The work is notable for being one of the first manga to feature a super team.

Who is the bad guy?

Skull is the leader of Black Ghost and the one directly responsible for creation of the 00 Cyborgs. Skull seeks to start World War III so Black Ghost can make a profit from selling weapons. Presenting himself as a friendly weapons dealer, Skull subtly manipulates wars so he can make money from selling weapons to both sides. He is never given a backstory and we don't even get to see his face, as it is always hidden behind a sinister skull-like helmet.

What do they do?

Skull sends his operatives across the globe to abduct candidates for Black Ghost's Cyborg Soldier program, taking people away from their families and friends just so they can be converted into living weapons. One of the later 00 Cyborgs, 0011, is even shown to have been a committed family man prior to Skull having him kidnapped.

In order to show off Cyborg 0013's capabilities, Skull has the cyborg go on a destructive rampage through Tokyo, endangering the lives of countless people. He later attempts to escalate the Civil War in African nation of Muamba by supplying the Muamban rebels with an advanced Black Ghost tank, forcing the dictator of Muamba to also buy Black Ghost's weapons. By doing this, Skull intends to escalate the war to the point where the U.S. will get involved, sparking another world war.

Skull is also a frequent abuser of his henchmen, and he will kill them off for reasons ranging from failing him to simply not being of any use to him any more.

Redeeming Qualities?

Skull and his actions are never presented in any positive light. Whenever Skull appears, things turn dark pretty quickly and he is never shown to have any comedic or redeeming moments. Skull is given no motivation for his actions other than War for Fun and Profit.

Heinousness?

Most of the antagonists in the series are henchmen of Skull, or at least connected. More prominent villains are usually shown to have some comedic or redeeming qualities. Skull stands out from the other 009 villains for his utter disregard for human life and willingness to make a profit at the expense of people's lives.

What is the work?

See the above example.

Who is the bad guy?

Van Vogt is the second-in-command of Black Ghost who poses as a businessman to cover his exploits. He initially appears to be Black Ghost's new leader in the 2001 anime before Skull is revealed to be alive. As with Skull, he is never given a backstory and is introduced as another nefarious operative of Black Ghost.

What do they do?

Van Vogt kidnaps three of Joe/009's childhood friends and forcibly converts them into cyborgs before sending them to kill Joe. When the three can't bring themselves to off their old friend, Vogt detonates the bombs he placed in them to punish them for their failure.

Vogt later takes control of the underground Yomi Kingdom so he can use the kingdom's Pu'Awak inhabitants to construct Black Ghost's ultimate weapon, the Demon Statue. As part of a plan to infiltrate and destroy the 00 Cyborgs' HQ, Van Vogt mindwipes Helen, one of the Pu'Awak princesses. and arranges for her to encounter the 00 Cyborgs. Once the mission has been completed and the cyborgs' base is destroyed, Vogt leaves her for dead.

Eventually, Helen and her four sisters get fed up with Vogt and Black Ghost's rule and rebel against him. Seeking to punish the five princesses for betraying him, Vogt holds Dr. Gilmore hostage and offers to exchange him for Helen and Vena. The two princesses ultimately agree to the offer and once they're all in one place, Vogt remorselessly executes all five of them.

Redeeming Qualities?

Like with Skull above, Van Vogt is never presented as having any comedic or positive qualities. He remains a serious, cruel villain all the way through. The one good thing he does is liberate the Pu'Awak from the oppressive rule of the Zattan, but that was just so he could use them for his own plans and his regime proves to be just as bad as the Zattan's.

Heinousness?

Van Vogt is one of the few villains in the manga whose cruelty can match up with Skull's. Unlike Skull, Vogt's actions affect the cyborgs on a more personal level. While not an Arch-Enemy to the cyborgs, his crimes leave them deeply traumatized, and he shows no regret for any of them.

Just imagine something here.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83529: May 12th 2017 at 6:01:01 PM

Yeah, I'm happy to give a yea to Skull and Van Vogt there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83530: May 12th 2017 at 6:23:59 PM

As am I. Thank you for taking the time and effort for that.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#83531: May 12th 2017 at 6:28:57 PM

Thanks for coming back and giving more information . [tup] to Skull and Van Vogt.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#83532: May 12th 2017 at 6:38:19 PM

[tup] Maoh King, [tup] Skull and Van Vogt, [tdown] Quinn

Kylo, you really ought to very carefully analyze your own candidates before proposing them, since throwing together E Ps for non-exmaples, some very obvious ones at that, seems to have become a trend with you.

BTW, does anyone know where some writeups have gone? I don't see my Trigon writeup on the series' YMMV page or the DC Animation Monster page, and the writeup for neither of the Men in Black animated villains are anywhere to be seen. just bugs me

edited 12th May '17 6:45:28 PM by ANewMan

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#83533: May 12th 2017 at 6:43:59 PM

I did. Why else would I propose him? Same for Alex DeLarge. Would have thought he'd counted, even by the standards of the story; otherwise, why would we have people like Ramsay Bolton?

edited 12th May '17 6:50:23 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83534: May 12th 2017 at 6:52:09 PM

I'm struggling to see how Ramsay is relevant in any way to this conversation. You're still struggling with understanding the heinous standard, Kylo, and until you show you learn how to grasp it I have very good reason to treat your proposals with a level of suspicion.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#83535: May 12th 2017 at 6:53:28 PM

The point was about a Complete Monster in a Crapsack World; if Ramsay Bolton counts, why doesn't Alex? Knighthood 45 agrees with me on that point.

edited 12th May '17 6:54:13 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#83536: May 12th 2017 at 6:57:10 PM

[up] Because they aren't treated identically and the nature of their Crapsack Worlds are different? Ramsay qualifying has nothing to do with a character in a completely different work.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83537: May 12th 2017 at 6:59:01 PM

Oh, and the Trigon and MIB candidates will be submitted Sunday, looks like.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#83538: May 12th 2017 at 7:00:54 PM

...I'm not sure citing a ban evader is helping your case, Kylo.

But yeah, please review the heinous standard better before giving an effortpost.

Shadow?
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#83539: May 12th 2017 at 7:00:56 PM

[up][up][up]It's no different. He still wants to rape and be violent in the second half, it's just that there's a chemical imbalance holding him back. I don't see him as sympathetic since he's not reformed at all. I thought the lesson was that 'you can't make someone good, they have to choose. And some people are just evil.'

I guess I'm still naive enough to be repulsed by him.

[up]Didn't know he was a dodger.

edited 12th May '17 7:02:34 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83540: May 12th 2017 at 7:05:24 PM

[up] The nature of the work matters a lot. A Clockwork Orange and Game of Thrones are very, very different things.

So, having finished a certain FPS...time for one of my own proposals...This one wasn't proposed for a reason I'll get to, but I wanna challenge that.

What is the work?

DOOM of 2016! Yes, that one. Someone made a sequel to Doom...and it didn't suck. In fact, it's the best damn FPS in years. Our hero is the Doom Guy, a nameless, faceless marine who fought the legions of hell in the past and kicked their asses before being sealed away in hibernation. Then he's woken up on Mars in the midst of a demonic invasion.

See, in the future? Union Aerospace Corporation is working on 'Argent Energy.' An energy crisis has led to an attempt by Dr. Samuel Hayden of UAC to...try to harvest energy from Hell itself. This...umm...well...

It ended predictably. In no small part thanks to....

Who Is She and What's She Do?

Dr. Olivia Pierce, Dr. Hayden's protege. After she received an artifact from the Argent Fracture, Olivia became obsessed with its power and allowed herself to be corrupted by the promises of power. Olivia made contact with the forces of hell and reached out to the leader of the demonic forces, the Imperatrix.. Suffering from a physically degenerating disease, Pierce began to dream of greater power...Pierce founded a cult dedicated to worshiping the demons and spread it throughout UAC, that also regularly indulged in human sacrifice. Pierce spread the lie that unleashing the demons would be to mankind's benefit and assist them in growing and evolving.

Pierce then put her plan into motion by unleashing Argent Energy in a powerful wave and released all the demons the facility had captive. The result? 64 percent of the staff ended up possessed or turned into monstrous zombies. Everyone else was utterly massacred. Dr. Hayden was the only known survivor and woke up the Doom Marine as he was the only thing who could deal with the invasion. Unfortunately, Olivia stayed one step ahead of the Doom Marine and opened a portal to hell itself.

Her intentions? To offer up humanity itself as a sacrifice to her demonic masters in order to become a god.Pierce abansons all her followers, with this message I've reprinted below in its entirety. It's one for the ages.

Some of you in a previous life may have held childish notions of God and the kingdom of heaven. This ugly representation of a spiritual nirvana was designed to control you, to placate your natural feelings of hate and rage, to subdue your realization of your place in this universe. By embracing science, you took the first steps towards freedom from these intellectual chains. By dedicating yourself to the development of Argent Energy, you cemented your place in the next age.

Now let use tell you about the real heaven.

The real kingdom of the gods is a place that you will never reach, and you should never wish to. No human will ever visit the sacred ground of Argent D'Nur, unless they are made a god by the dark lords. Humanity's only purpose, and reward, is to serve the ascension of the Imperatrix and protect the Crucible. You will be destroyed by the demons, while I will be made a god. My immortality is assured, while you will writhe in perpetual agony at the bottom of the darkest hole in Hell. You will be forgotten. Your life, your loved ones, your achievements and failures are nothing. A blank space on the canvas of time.

Thank you for your service. May you rot in Hell.

Unfortunately for Pierce, her demonic masters...have a remarkably similar view towards her. When you catch up with her in the hell-consumed world of Argent D'Nur, Pierce is barely breathing and whimpers how the demons 'promised her so much' before the master of the demons possesses her, and turns her into the Spider Mastermind as the final boss, being destroyed at the end by the Doom Marine.

So, Freudian Excuse and Mitigating Qualities?

Doom...has a surprisingly decent story to it. Now, Pierce begins as Hayden's protege, and while Hayden maintains a genuine belief in ending humanity's energy crisis and believes humanity can deal with the forces of hell by harnessing its energy with only maybe the occasional nightmarish demonic outbreak. Pierce is indicated to have shared this belief initially, and her illness certainly spurred her desire for more power.

I Ssue is, Hayden and Olivia both dealt with the same power and while Hayden degenerated physically, he didn't give in to darkness like Olivia did. I don't remember anything indicating that Olivia's agency is actively compromised as opposed to it just being her being so far gone with her drunk on evil and wanting to be a God. Her last message is such a delight "fuck you" to everyone who trusted her and her desire to hand over all humanity to the demons for eternal torture to every single man speaks for itself.

Conclusion?

I'd say keep Pierce...she's one of two Doom keepers I'll be proposing.

edited 12th May '17 7:06:31 PM by Lightysnake

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#83541: May 12th 2017 at 7:11:22 PM

Thanks for approving my example.

Could someone who has the permission to do so please add this example to the CM page for Anime and Manga:

  • Skull is the leader of the Black Ghost organization. He and his men exploit ongoing wars as way to make money by selling their weapons to both sides. In order to complete Black Ghost's "Cyborg Soldier" program, Skull sends his operatives across the world to kidnap people, taking them away from their families and friends so they can be forcibly experimented on. As a way to show off Cyborg 0013's capabilities, Skull has the cyborg rampage across Tokyo, causing tons of damage and endangering the lives of countless people all so he can create a spectacle for his investors. Skull later escalates the Muamban Civil War by dealing weapons to both sides of the strife, planning to expand the conflict into other countries simply so he can sell more weapons. Skull is also a user and abuser of his minions, and he will kill his underlings for reasons ranging from failing him to simply being of no more use to him. His primary goal is to provoke another World War just so he can deal more arms and make more of a profit. Skull is ultimately someone with an utter disregard for human life, only caring about the sales of his weapons.
  • Skull's second-in-command, Van Vogt, isn't much better. A Black Ghost executive who poses as a businessman to cover his exploits, Van Vogt forcibly converts three of Joe/Cyborg 009's childhood friends into cyborgs and sends them out to murder him. When they can't bring themselves to kill their old friend, Vogt activates the bombs he planted in them to punish them for their failure. He later invades the Yomi Kingdom with an army of robots. While liberating the Pu'Awak people from the oppressive rule of the Zattan, Van Vogt's regime proves to not be much better, as he forces the Pu'Awak to work on Black Ghost's ultimate weapon, the Demon Statue. He mindwipes Helen, one of the five Pu'Awak princesses, so he can use her to infiltrate and destroy the 00 Cyborgs' home. One the mission has been accomplished, Vogt leaves her for dead. When Helen and her sisters get fed up with his rule and help the 00 Cyborgs, Van Vogt mercilessly kills all five of them.

Just imagine something here.
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#83542: May 12th 2017 at 7:11:50 PM

[up][up][up] That point about Alex might well be true but the fact of the matter is that what was done to him was every bit as horrible as what he'd done to others, When an entire government system partakes in such horrible Mind Rape that's treated as being monstrous by the narrative, Alex can't really cut it as a standout CM. The point of the original story was a question of "how far must a society go in order to rid itself of it's own monsters before the society itself becomes monstrous?" Alex was a monstrous individual, but within that story he was far from the only one guilty of monstrosity.

edited 12th May '17 7:12:06 PM by ANewMan

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#83543: May 12th 2017 at 7:12:43 PM

If the page is locked, ask in this thread.

If it's not, just cite this thread as your reason for adding the entry.

Shadow?
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#83544: May 12th 2017 at 7:18:26 PM

[up][up]He's just as bad as the government with fewer resources.

As I said, I guess I'm still naive enough to be repulsed by him.

edited 12th May '17 7:18:38 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#83545: May 12th 2017 at 7:20:34 PM

[up] He'd have to be worse than the government with his fewer resources to qualify. If he's "just as bad", the government must also qualify, but they cannot qualify because it's a group rather than a single individual.

It's not about naivete - you can be repulsed by Alex without him being a CM. Any repulsive villain is not an automatic CM.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83546: May 12th 2017 at 7:22:42 PM

I'm saying yes to Pierce upon taking a second look at her. Lighty's going to be taking Betruger from Doom 3 as well, all, so stay tuned.

edited 12th May '17 7:23:00 PM by Scraggle

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#83547: May 12th 2017 at 7:23:03 PM

Guess I said it wrong; I think he's worse, since he takes pleasure in the crime he causes, the government didn't seem to.

"Viddy well, brother, viddy well."

Also thought it was more of a case of "does one do just as bad things with fewer resources?"

edited 12th May '17 7:27:32 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83548: May 12th 2017 at 7:28:08 PM

[up] As I need to repeat; sadistic does not always mean heinous.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83549: May 12th 2017 at 7:31:32 PM

The issue is Alex's monstrosity is portrayed as a sign of immaturity rather than pure evil. It's a horrible dystopia where Alex's evil is just one part of the terrible world, because nearly everyone is terrible.

Alex's issue is that in the work, he's treated as more needing to grow up

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#83550: May 12th 2017 at 7:33:54 PM

The case against Alex has been made and its a bit more nuanced than simply "not heinous". Just reiterating his crimes and sadism isn't exactly a convincing argument.

[tup] to Pierce.


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