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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#83477: May 12th 2017 at 6:33:25 AM

I mainly remember there being some issue raised over the heinous standard in Hardcore Henry based on the later reveals... which I still didn't get since it was all explicitly Akan's plan. Maybe I should rewatch but it was honestly rather too bloody for my taste (still kind of fun though).

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#83478: May 12th 2017 at 6:34:11 AM

[tup]Page.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83479: May 12th 2017 at 6:39:23 AM

[up][up] Eh, considering he's behind...pretty much everything, I don't think the heinous standard is the problem.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83481: May 12th 2017 at 7:32:05 AM

Huh, looks like a new Matthew Reilly book came out in the States. I'll claim it if nobody minds (two weeks will be Tuesday; no way I'll've read it by then).

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#83482: May 12th 2017 at 8:05:14 AM

[tup] to Doctor Edgar Simon, Dobryna Popovich, and Edward Page.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#83483: May 12th 2017 at 8:33:06 AM

Just wanted to ask, how many examples for a work or series usually justifies its own subpage? It just seems like the X-Men Film Series is stacking them up with Sebastian Shaw, Ajax, Apocalypse, and Dr. Xander Rice and Donald Pierce. Thanks.

edited 12th May '17 8:33:40 AM by TellAll111

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83484: May 12th 2017 at 8:37:41 AM

It's a minimum of 5; nowadays more like 6 or 7. The series will likely get its own page eventually.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83485: May 12th 2017 at 8:47:17 AM

On the subject of X-Men, I'm looking at Zander and Pierce's entries from Logan and... do we really need all these random comparisons to the comics? They needlessly bloat up the entries and don't add anything.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#83486: May 12th 2017 at 8:47:58 AM

[up][up][up] Also, friendly warning: bringing up subpages is usually something of a Berserk Button for this thread. It happens often enough that it gets on people's nerves as subpages are reserved out of necessity than possibility.

We have a Bond subpage because otherwise we'd have a large glut of examples clogging up the film page. We also want to discourage the notion that this trope is a "badge of honour", which sub pages tend to unintentionally suggest.

6 or 7 examples is our generally agreed on boundary, with exceptions.

I myself consider it rude when people keep asking about subpages because they tend to ignore or forget the objections, but you seem to be new here, or I at least don't recognise you, so I'll give you a pass.

EDIT: [up] I agree. A work should stand on its own. Maybe something like "The Joker is as bad as ever." or "This is a strong case of Adaptational Villainy.", but other than that I think is too much.

Yeah, a cursory glance at the entries the comics comparisons come off as fluff. Donal Pierce isn't as racist as in the comics? Has little to no bearing on his being a particularly vile villain in the films. Likewise, we don't need to mention Rice does not have a Freudian Excuse unlike his comic version.

Speaking of Comic!Rice, I imagine his desire to avenge his father's death isn't played for sympathy at all? Like, I've been wondering this for a while but kept on forgetting to bring it up.

edited 12th May '17 9:13:20 AM by PolarPhantom

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83487: May 12th 2017 at 8:53:09 AM

Alright, let me touch these up a bit. With potholes intact:

  • Logan proves that sometimes Humans Are the Real Monsters:
    • Dr. Zander Rice is the head of the X-23 experiment and is a cold-blooded, sociopathic Mad Scientist. Before heading the X-23 experiment, Rice orchestrates the near-total genocide of mutantkind with a sterilizing virus that eradicates the X-gene, with survivors butchered by his second-in-command, Donald Pierce, and his Reavers to be used for raw material. To create a perfect killing machine afterwards, Rice has numerous women forcibly impregnated with the X-gene afterwards, taking their mutant children afterwards and murdering the women once their use expires. Rice conducts torturous experiments on the children afterwards to breed them into mindless assassins, with full emphasis on treating the children as "things"—a mindset which leads to some of the children committing suicide. Rice ultimately breeds a clone of Logan he dubs X-24 to serve the project's purpose and orders the children all killed, dispatching Pierce to commit further atrocities in his pursuit of the children once they escape. Once Rice himself comes into the fray, Rice looses X-24 onto an innocent family and callously watches as it butchers the entire family and Xavier himself, later rounding up all the children just short of the Canadian border and threatening to kill them all before Logan. Completely devoid of any compassion or feeling towards the subjects of his horrific experiments, Zander Rice ultimately becomes one of the most deplorable characters in the series, mutant or otherwise, in his pursuit to control mutantkind.
    • The aforementioned Donald Pierce is the smug, psychopathic Cyborg in charge of the Reavers, Transigen's primary military might. As the head of security for Transigen, Pierce took full part in not only the hunting down, butchering, and vivisecting of many mutants for their raw materials, but also assisted in the X-23 experiments alongside the aforementioned Zander, entailing the forcibly impregnation of numerous women with mutant genes, murdering them after they give birth, then raising the resulting children as tortured lab rats to be turned into submissive slaves and assassins in adulthood. When the children began rebelling, either through violence against their captors or by killing themselves, Pierce was tasked with putting them all down, and proceeded to execute several of the children. After many of the kids escape with the help of the nurses, Pierce tracked down the head nurse, Gabriela, brutally murdered her, then went on to begin hunting down the escaped children, primarily focusing on the young Laura, who would become X-23. During his hunt for the girl, Pierce forces the mutant tracker Caliban into submission by searing his flesh, tortures and likely murders a gas station attendant who spotted Laura, and eventually unleashes the Wolverine clone X-24 onto a small family housing Logan, Laura, and Professor Xavier, showing nothing but amusement as the family and Xavier are cut down. In the end, Pierce lays a trap for all the escaped children, rounding them up for a mass execution, beats and holds one of them at gunpoint to force Logan to stand down, and ultimately releases X-24 one last time to kill Logan. Motivated only by power, cruelty, and xenophobia, Donald Pierce is easily one of the most depraved villains Logan has faced, mutant or not.

edited 12th May '17 8:53:25 AM by Scraggle

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83488: May 12th 2017 at 9:01:36 AM

Those look better, I'm certain of it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83489: May 12th 2017 at 9:03:27 AM

As for Zander from the comics and his dad...not even a little.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83490: May 12th 2017 at 9:06:35 AM

Scraggle, please add to the Drafts.

As for Comic!Rice's father, from lighty (holy crap, have I really been on this site over 4 years???):

Rice...reading the story itself...it's impossible to feel sympathy. His sadism towards unrelated parties in Revenge by Proxy and how he tries to have his own son killed is just too much.
Dammit [nja]

edited 12th May '17 9:06:53 AM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#83491: May 12th 2017 at 9:09:48 AM

Added. No extra fluff or potholes, please (especially considering I know those extra needless bits weren't part of the original writeups Ravok and I crafted). Submit them how they are.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#83492: May 12th 2017 at 9:26:57 AM

Writeup time:

  • Wonderful Days: Commander Locke is the ruthless head of security of Ecoban, introduced working the Marrians to death in terrible conditions. When a disaster occurs, Locke disengages a part of the rig, killing a large amount of innocent workers. When a foreman tries to stop Locke, Locke executes him on the spot and tells his subordinates that it's fine because the man drew a knife on him first. Locke begins ramping up the oppression, taking his men to kill protesting Marrians and finally initiates Operation Marr to exterminate most of them except those he'll spare to be enslaved to work for Ecoban. When he returns to find the heroine Jay trying to sabotage the city's unfair system, Locke gleefully attempts to shoot through his own second in command Cade to kill her, grinning all the while.

  • Beastmaster
    • King Zad is the Big Bad for the first two seasons. The barbarian king of the violent Terrons, Zad is the man who destroyed the Beastmaster Dar's home city and killed his father King Eldar. Zad routinely has innocent villages massacred with the women taken for entertainment and other survivors forced to fight monsters and wild animals for Zad's amusement. Taking Dar's lover Kyra as a slave, Zad psychologically torments her while lusting after her, intending to break her and make her submit to him 'willingly' for the pleasure of taking away Dar's beloved. Zad also kills his men on a constant basis for petty or imagined reasons with his other crimes including trying to kill the final unicorns, trying to murder children who may one day grow up to oppose him and even murders his own sister when she betrays him for her own power. Revealed as a servant of the demonic lord Balcifer, Zad plans to assist Balcifer in his conquest of the world and the extermination of everything besides Zad's own territories so Zad can reign over the last remnants of humanity.
    • Balcifer, Lord of Darkness. Balcifer contacted King Zad years ago and convinced him to become his agent on Earth, and gave him his first task: The genocide of the entire Sula Tribe to eradicate the only bloodline that could actually harm him. At the start of season 3, Balcifer casually kills the Ancient One and returns to check on Zad's progress, with it being revealed that all the crimes of the Terrons were at Balcifer's bequest. In the finale, Balcifer arrives in person, promptly devours an innocent woman's soul. Balcifer tries to corrupt Dar to become his new Dragon, seeing as he finds Zad to have outlived his usefulness. Balcifer then reveals his attempt to cover the world in darkness and exterminate all that lives save for himself.

  • The Big Boss: Hsiao Mi, the titular Big Boss, is a brutal factory owner who uses his factory as a drug smuggling operation. When his workers uncover the drugs, Hsiao Mi has them murdered and later kills their cousins when they try to investigate what happened. Having a riot brutally suppressed, he corrupts the hero Cheng with alcohol and women before deciding Cheng can't be trusted, having Cheng's lover killed and then having his entire family slaughtered before trying to kill Cheng in a personal duel.

  • Full Contact: the psychotic Judge opens the film robbing a store, stabbing an innocent woman to torture a safe combination out of her and leading to the deaths of the innocents around. Organizing a heist to steal a shipment of guns, Judge has his group massacre the passengers of a lorry bus and then double crosses the hero Ko-Fei/Jeff as Jeff has a bounty on his head from a loan shark. Forcing his own cousin Sam to try to murder Jeff which also leads to an innocent family's death with the only surviving girl suffering horrible burns. Some time later, Judge reigns as a brutal crime boss and when Jeff resurfaces and steals Judge's shipment of guns, Judge furiously executes his own loyal henchwoman before trying to kill Jeff after torturing him with nonfatal gunshots, claiming his only regret is the two never got 'one night together' first.

  • Shaft In Africa: Vincent Amafi opens the film executing a diplomat's son who got too close to the truth that Amafi is running a modern day slave trade: Amafi offers young men from Africa new lives, only to sell them into labor-intensive jobs for literal pennies where they work 7 days a week for 16 hours per day with no way to speak up lest they face deportation or murder. Using slave labor on his own estates, Amafi has an apartment full of enslaved workers burned down and the workers killed in an attempt to murder the hero John Shaft. It is revealed he is keeping a group of prisoners in his own estate's dungeons, even rigging the cells with explosives to kill them all should Shaft not surrender.

  • Laser Mission
    • Colonel Kalashnikov is a brutal colonel who has multiple people murdered to steal the Virbeck diamond, also enslaving the kindhearted genius Dr. Braun to force him to use the diamond to create a super weapon to initiate devastating attacks on the west. Using slave labor in Africa to work on the weapon site, Kalashnikov takes the heroine Alissa hostage and later attempts to rape and kill her. Upon the completion of the project, Kalashnikov then attempts to massacre his slave workers to keep anyone from talking.
    • Eckhardt, Kalashnikov's vicious mercenary henchman, is a German killer who lives in Africa and also uses slave labor on his estate while working to make Kalashnikov's plans of mass-murder a reality.. Stealing the Virbeck diamond by gassing an auction, it is revealed Eckhardt regularly massacres anyone in his way when he takes a job and has a darker hobby. When threatening Braun to work on Kalashnikov's project, Eckhardt reveals his 'trophy' room consisting of a large amount of human head with a promise Braun's daughter will join the collection should Braun refuse to work.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83493: May 12th 2017 at 9:30:04 AM

[up][up] Actually, I'll just submit them as is. They look good.

Since we have Manhwa examples under Anime & Manga, should Locke go there, or other media?

edited 12th May '17 9:33:50 AM by ACW

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#83494: May 12th 2017 at 9:41:39 AM

If the X-Men movies get their own page (and that's a big if), should we put X-Men TV examples there as well? Its unclear whether Legion is in the same universe as the XCU and a new X-Men show is starting on Fox.

Also [tup] to Popovich and Page.

edited 12th May '17 9:44:35 AM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83495: May 12th 2017 at 9:42:14 AM

[up] Eh, wait and see if they're connected. If they are, we can do what we do with MCU.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#83496: May 12th 2017 at 9:56:39 AM

[up] Frankly, it would be easier to justify a XCU page if the TV examples counted as well, that would open the page to being far larger. I guess if either of the movie Xavier actors shows up in Legion, we would get our answer.

I think a subpage should exist if it has a lot of examples and has the potential for a lot of examples in the future.

This is why I thought it was a good idea for Star Trek to get its own page, because despite being an optimistic franchise, monsters can still exist in this franchise (Star Trek can deal with some dark subject matter like rape and genocide) and Star Trek is a huge franchise, even if none of the Star Trek movie villains have counted, there still examples from the video games and TV shows and I bet the novels or comics may have some new examples.

Same deal with the MCU, its fairly small now, but it can easily grow, with new movies all the time and new TV shows. I think the Defenders villain is worth keeping an eye on, because I have some theories about her and Bullseye could show up in Daredevil eventually.

Anyway, my point is that a subpage should exist because of both number of examples and the potential of more examples, the smaller franchise, the less of need there is to give it a sub page. That's the guide lines I would give as to whether a franchise needs a sub page or not, not just if they get over 6 examples. It also depends on how much examples from one franchise can clutter up a page. Sub page should promote neatness and order.

edited 12th May '17 10:04:43 AM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#83497: May 12th 2017 at 10:27:03 AM

Hell, I remember when there were subpages with only 3 or 4 examples. Thank goodness THAT'S not a thing anymore.

Now that Lighty's done most of his (still don't know where Locke goes), here's what's pending:

  • Modru (Mithgar) (Ambar)
  • Harakan (Ambar)
  • Analogman (CyberXIII)
  • Vonotar the Traitor; Zakhan Kimah; Archdruid Cadak (LoreDeluxe)
  • Constance Hatchaway from Disney's The Haunted Mansion (SumDumNerd)
  • Lightysnake
    • Ching Han from The Big Heat (1988)
  • Ravok
    • Dobrynya Popovich & Edward "The Zealot" Page from Modern Combat
    • Dr. Edgar Simon from Shadowgun
  • Scraggle
    • Colonel Kartiff & General Pantaro from Bulletproof (1988)

edited 12th May '17 10:27:54 AM by ACW

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#83498: May 12th 2017 at 10:36:12 AM

[tup]Doctor Edgar Simon, Dobryna Popovich, and Edward Page

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#83500: May 12th 2017 at 11:20:56 AM

OK, so I might have another candidate (keyword might), but the show that he came from was pretty weird, albeit not to the point where it was incomprehensible. With the last thing he did, it could be up to debate.

The series is called Genma Wars which is based on a manga series by Shotaro Ishinomori. Also known as Genma Wars: Eve of Mythology, the series is set in a post-apocalyptic world where the human race is made subservient to other sapient species who had evolved over the thousands of years. They are oppressed by a group of supernatural creatures known as the Genma; their leader, the Maoh King, wishes to have an heir with immense power. During one of his raids on a village, a young woman gives herself up; the result is two twins that get separated by birth. One is taken to live with the lowly woman, while the other is treated as a prince.

Who is he?

The Maoh King, otherwise known as the Wizard King, is the supreme ruler of the Earth who had reduced it to its hellish state. Years prior to the series, the Great Genma King tasked him with spreading the war onto the Earth, and to provide him with Genma-human hybrids. Eventually, the Maoh King grew bored with this, and he began to impregnate women with his telepathic powers so that he could sire a child powerful enough to face him.

What has he done?

The Maoh King is introduced in the aptly named "Offspring of Genma," in which he oversees his son — Katsu — battle with several opponents. Once he defeats all of them, he proudly declares himself to be a wizard....only to find himself getting fed to monsters by his father. Horrified, Nuu — Katsu's tutor — confronts the King on his senseless murder of his son. Angered, the Maoh King transforms Nuu into a wolf, and coldly tells him to find him a human female from the Hito Tribe. Non, a member of the tribe, willingly sacrifices herself so that her village could be spared. Once there, the Maoh King comes upon her, and impregnates her. The resulting babies are twins, but Nuu decides to leave one of the twins for Non to raise. As a result, Non names her son Gin (the other, Loof); as for the other son, he is taken to the Genma Castle where he is begrudgingly raised by the Maoh King's wife, Parome.

Later on, Loof is transformed into a human, and therefore loses his father's favor. Loof is banished from the palace, and Parome uses the opportunity to send her troops out to kill her stepson. As for the Maoh King, he approves of this, and states his intent on seeing his son's severed head on display. Around this time, Parome — who had finally had enough of her husband impregnating human women — prays to the Great Genma asking for his help in assassinating her husband. Eventually, Loof and Gin encounter their half-siblings, and they lead a coupe against their father. Parome effortlessly kills all of the half-siblings save for one, and the twins confront the Wizard King. They ask him why he created them; the only answer they receive from the Maoh King was that he did it for boredom, bemoaning how he was assigned to rule over a pointless world.

The Wizard King engages in a fight with his sons, only to be stabbed in the back by a dying Parome. The Maoh King in turn stabs her; before he dies, he opens a time portal and tosses his sons into it, tasking them with preventing the Genmas rise to power, ergo preventing him from ascending to the throne.

Mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?

Now....here are a few things. Throughout the years, the Maoh King had been siring children with several virgins, but one he was remotely interested in was Non. He boasts to his wife Parome that she was the only human woman that he had ever loved, and actually wished to see her again. For all intents and purposes this should be a mitigating factor, but there are a few problems with this. For one, he forces her to comply against her wishes, and he only seemed to love her for her beauty rather than for being a person. Not only that, but once Non is murdered, not once does he express any genuine sorrow. Not only that, but immediately after she dies...he goes to impregnate more virgin women, almost as if his feelings for her didn't mean anything.

With Parome, not only does he deliberately cheat on her by having children through several women, but he always has a flair of a condescending tone whenever he speaks with her. He laughs at her face whenever she states her disgust at what he does, he never once says that he loves her. Even if he did, it's made clear that it's a baseless declaration.

Lastly with Loof. He did come to love him during his time at the palace, but once he became human, he completely severed his ties with him. He didn't as much as bat an eye when Loof was exiled and encourages the hunt for his former son. In sum, all of his instances where he has a relationship with another character, in the end, they aren't meaningful to him.

Now for the primary issue...in his dying moments, he sends his sons into the past to prevent the destruction of human civilization, thereby preventing the Genmas from dominating the world. When I first saw this scene, it seemed as though he were regretting what he had done to a certain degree. However, when I watched the scene a few more times, I came to the conclusion that he mainly wants to prevent the rise of the Genma rise mainly so that he wouldn't be made to rule over the Earth. Before his death, the Maoh King loudly proclaims his displeasure of being made to rule over a worthless planet, so much so that he saw ravaging female virgins as the only escape for him. With that, I personally believe that he only was willing to help his sons stop the future from happening solely so he wouldn't get this position than out of altruism.

Heinous standard

Let's see....reduces the Earth to a hellish atmosphere where humans are made subservient to other sentient beings (to the point that they're considered a delicacy to Genma culture), a Serial Rapist (maybe mass rapist as he rapes several women at once in one episode) of the highest order, a horrible father who would either abandon or outright kill his children if they didn't meet his impossible standards? Sounds like he passes it without issue.

Conclusion

Overall, indifferent on this candidate counting.

edited 12th May '17 5:35:34 PM by AustinDR


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