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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#82401: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:34:13 PM

I say 'Yes' to Hans. Handily. I literally just rewatched that film a couple weeks ago, and found myself wondering about those arguments that were used to cut him. Considered proposing him then myself, but got caught up in other stuff. He's a Keeper for me.

And a 'Yes' to Tran as well.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#82402: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:41:29 PM

Yeah, with a rewatch in mind? I'm actually going to say yes to Hans. No potential altruism ever verges past simple pragmatism and he comfortably goes over just being a generic action baddie. High props to Rickman for his performance here too.

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#82403: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:53:00 PM

I'm going to restrain for Hans at least for now, for the following reasons. I've seen first four Die Hard movies and what I'm not so sure is that whether he matches the heinous standard or not. Colonel Stuart in the sequel is someone I see far worse.

[down] They are still canon, though.

edited 29th Apr '17 12:59:24 PM by Kookosbanaani

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82404: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:54:51 PM

The issue there is Hans was the first one in the series that had no idea there would be sequels at the time.

Die Hard 2 was literally a plot for a wholly different film hastily reworked as a Die Hard movie after the first's success.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#82406: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:55:43 PM

I actually talked with Lighty about Hans a while back since I contemplated proposing him at one point. I personally felt he counted back then and still do, so a yes to him.

I've also been trying to catch the sequel on TV since A: I heard that Colonel Stuart from that movie is pretty bad, and B: I really liked the first movie and want to see more. :u So that's definitely someone I'd like to EP if no one else gets around to it first. But if they do, then eh. I'll live. :u

edited 29th Apr '17 12:59:27 PM by FriedWarthog

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82407: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:07:43 PM

I mentioned Stuart, and someone brought up him being A Father to His Men or something (I saw it a LONG time ago). He's DEFINITELY bad enough (what with crashing the plane full of innocents just to show he could).

I'll give a SLIGHT [tup] to Hans; it's been awhile since I saw the movie, but reading the effortpost he seems to JUST exceed the action movie heinous standard (and reading the character pages, it seems like the Big Bads of 3, 4, and 5 have standards or loved ones.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:12:43 PM by ACW

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82408: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:26:46 PM

I'll wait until an EP is done for Stuart or even Gabriel to voice my opinion.

I also have someone in mind from Blue Bloods.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:27:04 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82409: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:29:06 PM

There's not going to be one. Neither counts. Gabriel has overall positive goals for the country (sorta) and loved his right hand woman Mai. Stuart is noticeably aggrieved when his mentor dies against John

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82410: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:31:46 PM

I thought it was all Greed with Gabriel, and he after he blows up the gas mains (which is Disproportionate Retribution by itself) he's just as he was before Mai wound up at the bottom of an elevator shaft with an SUV rammed up her ass.

Also, please remind me who was the mentor.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:32:26 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82411: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:34:04 PM

Gabriel has a monologue how he'll improve the country's infrastructure and he's very noticeably aggrieved upon Mai's death. As for Stuart, when Grant is sucked into the jet engine fighting John, he's very upset.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82412: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:36:07 PM

Ok.

Find anyone else with Sharpe?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#82413: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:43:55 PM

[up][up] Gotcha. Still gonna see if I can catch Die Hard 2 on TV though since, again, I wanted to see more. :u

Anyway, yes to the other President's man baddie.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82414: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:51:10 PM

And Simon Gruiber has standards (wouldn't hurt a child), while the Big Bad of the 5th movie loves his daughter (and vice versa).

P.S. Just a heads up: I'm gonna request the swapping of the DC Animation stuff (currently at Complete Monster Drafts) tomorrow.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:58:36 PM by ACW

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#82415: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:11:03 PM

Honestly? Hans is a candidate who also struck me as horrible enough to count, never bothered to look up why he didn't make it the first time but I'm happy to give him a [tup]. On another note about him, I loved the character and appreciated how suave and humorous he was despite being a brutal, remorseless criminal. If he goes up I've gotta say in my mind he'll be the one proper example I can think of who plays this trope and Magnificent Bastard well.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#82416: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:12:59 PM

[tup] to Hans.

Here's a fun fact, you know how most of the Die Hard sequels where written to be seperate and unrealted films ? Turns out even the original Die Hard wasn't supppsed to be a Die Hard film. It was gonna be a sequel to Commando.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82417: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:13:17 PM

When I think of him like that, [tup]

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82418: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:13:42 PM

I could try an EP for Commando.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#82419: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:15:41 PM

[tup] to Gabriel Engel and General Vihn Tran.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82420: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:28:50 PM

Nobody in Commando counts. Bog standard, unimpressive bad guys. Both Bennett and Arius came through here before.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#82421: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:30:39 PM

It's been a while but here's finally two write-ups for the Collector and Thomas Eichhorst.

  • The Collector is the Big Bad of the film, a demon bounty hunter searching for the final key his species needs in order to bring about the end of the world. The Collector is a soulless monster who hides behind a Faux Affably Evil veneer and delights in joking as he leads his victims to damnation. When Brayker, a Demon Knight entrusted to guard the final key from the demons, seals himself in a boardinghouse alongside its residents, the Collector summons an army of demons and lays siege. Through his psychic powers, the Collector is able to possess the humans in the boardinghouse by tempting them with their deepest desires. However, the Collector never provides what he offers and instead the boardinghouse residents, such as Cordelia and Uncle Wally are turned into low-level demons, tortured souls trapped in monstrous bodies that the Collector controls. At the film's climax the Collector possesses a little boy through a comic book and uses him to mortally wound Brayker. With the last key in his possession, the Collector merrily chats with the sole survivor, Jeryline, about how humanity will be reduced to leftovers, and attempts to cut out her heart as a memento after he fails to corrupt her.
  • Thomas Eichhorst is a former Nazi turned vampire who acts as the right-hand man of the Master. Even prior to his transformation, Eichhorst was a despicable human being who crossed the Moral Event Horizon when he declined to help a Jewish, former co-worker he had a crush on, and instead lied to his superiors about her being a thief and allowed her and her family to be hanged. During the war, Eichhorst offered Russian POWs a special assignment in exchange for better living conditions, but neglected to tell them that their new job was executing Jewish prisoners too old or infirm to work. When one POW, Fetrovsky, performs the execution only after Eichhorst threatened his and his friend's lives, Eichhorst murders Fetrovsky's friend anyway as punishment for hesitating. Eichhorst was eventually made the commandant of a concentration camp and at some point became aligned with the Master. In order to find a carpenter to craft his master's coffin, Eichhorst threatened to kill a workhouse full of prisoners unless the one who carved a Jewish Talisman he found stepped forward. Unlike the animalistic vampires that make up the Master's army, Eichhorst retains his mind and his sense of sadism which he displays through actions like vampirizing Setrakian's wife to force Setrakian to kill her, and attempting to rape/eat Dutch with his stinger. One task Eichhorst has is overseeing the creation of slaughterhouses to drain humans of blood as efficiently as possible. When one of his employees doesn't see the difference in using a dummy to test the system instead of a live person, Eichhorst illustrates his point by impaling another employee on a meat hook, then timing it as he's subjected to the draining process. A fanatic who aspires to greatness through serving the Master, Eichhorst is instrumental in helping bring about the vampire apocalypse.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82422: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:35:15 PM

Who is he?

Arius is the former dictator of Val Verde who was deposed by a commando team led by John Matrix. He plans to seize power again and hires Sociopathic Soldier Bennett, a former member of Matrix's team fired for brutality, to kill the rest of the team, with Bennett himself Faking the Dead. To force Matrix to comply, as the president trusts Matrix, Arius has Bennett kidnap Matrix's daughter Jenny, threatening to kill her if he does not comply. However, Matrix escapes off a plane to Val Verde, and kills the rest of Arius' mercenaries before setting out for Val Verde to rescue Jenny. When he hears Matrix was not on the plane, Arius sends Bennett to kill Jenny.

Freudian Excuse?

None, just Greed.

Mitigating Circumstances?

Non-Action Big Bad.

Heinousness?

He's the Big Bad behind Bennett's murders and Would Hurt a Child without a second thought.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#82423: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:36:27 PM

Whoops. Discount that EP.

But I'd like to read the discussions on Arius and Bennett.

edited 29th Apr '17 2:38:26 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#82424: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:38:43 PM

[tup] Hector, Tran and Hans

[tdown] Zs'Skayr

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009

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