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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82251: Apr 28th 2017 at 3:23:21 AM

Alright, some cleanup stuff before I read the effortposts:

  • FYI, the DC reformat is mainly to get all the DCAU Originals with the same continuities together.
  • Scraggle: I'll request cutting shine; I THINK Broadwick is a keeper.
  • bobg: You know what to do (just put it above the DC stuff please).
    • Speaking of the DC stuff: Shall I request the swapping?

edited 28th Apr '17 3:24:01 AM by ACW

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#82253: Apr 28th 2017 at 6:41:20 AM

Spark: A Space Tail is going to be delayed. It isn't airing in any theaters in my city and I can't find any online streams. If anyone here has seen the film and would be interested in taking over discussion on it in my place PM me.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#82254: Apr 28th 2017 at 7:41:53 AM

@G-Editor: I would say no. He just doesn't show up often enough or do enough directly; his actions in the backstory kick off the Myth Arc of the Mithgar series and most of the villains of the individual books at least pay lip service to him, but Gyphon himself just doesn't get much of a chance to directly demonstrate how bad he is (unlike his Middle-earth counterpart Morgoth, who got ample time to do so across his role as Big Bad in the "Quenta Silmarillion").

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82256: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:05:19 AM

  • The Dagger of Kamui: The villainous Tenkai aims to take over Japan for himself. Having the hero Jiro's adoptive family murdered, Tenkai trains him as a ninja and manipulates Jiro into killing his own biological father before ordering Jiro's village to be slaughtered to the last man. When Jiro learns of his true other, Tenkai has her murdered too, attempting to manipulate Jiro into leading him to the lost treasure of Captain Kidd in the West, also using Jiro's brainwashed sister as one of his soldiers. Using a body double, Tenkai attempts to have Jiro and all his friends killed with the double even trying to rape Jiro's sister as well. Finally, during the downfall of the Shogunate, Tenkai attempts to take advantage of the war to finally seize control of Japan, lacking allegiance to nothing but his own ambition.

  • Read or Die: Ikkyu, clone of the real life poet, Ikkyu Soujun, is the leader of the I-Jins and a terrorist mastermind who engineers a number of deaths to gain access to a book of Ludwig von Beethoven's which contains secrets of the 'Death Symphony.' Testing it on a group of people, Ikkyu observes them gruesomely killing eachother with satisfaction before planning to broadcast it across the entire planet to exterminate the human race. While also using the heroine Yoko Readman's partner Nancy, a clone of Mata Hari, Ikkyu secretly clones her as well when he doubts her loyalty and attempts to kill her as well before putting his genocidal plans into action.

  • Murder Party: Seemingly wealthy and sinister Alexander organizes the 'Murder Party' that lures in poor Average Joe Christopher before taking him hostage. Alexander then asserts his dominance over the group of artists present and instructs them how to murder Christopher in a group effort. As the night goes on, Alexander plays sadistic mind games with the group and eventually reveals he's just a fry cook who planned to trick them all into committing a gruesome murder before killing all of them to steal their artwork and make it more valuable to sell when they were all dead. He immediately attempts to kill everyone present following this revelation.

  • No Tears for the Dead: Byeon is the main villain Lee's second in command and serves him and Ventura Corporation in return for a promised massive payday. When they fear their corruption is exposed, Byeon immediately puts hitmen on the job to murder the wife of an attempted whistleblower who he already had murdered by the protagonist Gon (also resulting in the death of the couple's young daughter). Byeon carries out multiple murders of suspected leakers himself and organizes a team of hitmen to go after Gon when he betrays them to save the widow, resulting in numerous innocents dying. When Byeon's liaison in the police force, implied to be his brother, demands more money for his efforts, Byeon stabs him to death and later even murders Lee when it turns out he won't be paid. He then proceeds to try to rape the heroine Mo-gyeong out of spite and retribution for the trouble she's caused him.

  • Revenge of the Ninja: The manipulative Braden is seemingly a good friend of hero and secret ninja Cho Osaki, but in truth is merely using Cho's art gallery for his heroin smuggling. When the local mob boss Caifano refuses to work with him, Braden employs his ninja talents from his time in Japan to murder Caifano's men, relatives and any bystanders with them. When he fears that Cho's young son has seen heron in a broken doll, he attempts to murder the child and kills Cho's ninja mother when she fights him to save her grandson. When Braden's assistant Cathy betrays him to rescue Cho's son, Braden attempts to murder her by leaving her tied up in a hot tub to drow . Braden then invades Caifano's headquarters, massacring everyone he encounters before engaging Cho himself in a final duel to the death.

  • Ninja III: The Domination': The evil, unnamed Black Ninja opens the film by killing a couple at a golf course and everyone else he sees. When the police arrive, the ninja spends his time killing them as well before being mortally wounded. Stumbling upon a young woman, the evil ninja possesses her and begins using her body to murder the police officers who killed him and anyone nearby to witness him. Being barely stopped from killing his host's boyfriend, the Black Ninja is exorcised by the ninja Yamada (whose father was murdered by the Black Ninja) and takes his old body as an undead killer who immediately attempts to mind control or massacre everyone in the temple they're in before engaging Yamada in a final battle.

  • The strain: The Master is the youngest of the Ancients with a legacy of death going back millennia. Killing and feeding at his whim, the Master ends up in New York after stowing away aboard a plane and killing and turning everyone on board before sending the newly made vampires after their own loved ones to spread his new strain. In the past, the Master also used Concentration Camps as a feeding ground, and when the carpenter Abraham Setrakian tried to kill him, the Master broke his hands to leave him to suffer and die now that he would be useless to the Nazis. Using his vampires to kill and convert countless innocents in New York, the Master directs a number of blind children to be turned by his right-hand man Thomas Eichhorst to serve as 'hunters' before attempting to overwhelm entire neighborhoods with his armies. When his ally Eldritch Palmer annoys the Master, the Master kills his lover Coco just to prove a point. Finally having his 'brothers' killed, the Master and Eichhorst attempt to use a nuke to blot out the sun to allow the vampires to completely overwhelm New York.

  • Resident Evil 4: Osmund Saddler, master of Los Illuminado, reawakens the Las Plagas parasites, infecting multiple villagers before determining the strain works. Injecting him with a 'master' Las Plagas, Saddler spreads the parasite to the rest of the village, destroying the minds of everyone it comes into contact with and leaving them as Saddler's puppets. Saddler also conducts horrible experiments on those in his clutches and disposes of the corpses by feeding them to Las Plagas infected monsters. However, when children are infected they die painfully due to their bodies not being developed enough to handle the strain. Saddler plans to use the President's daughter to infect her father and from there take over the US and then the rest of the world, infecting everyone with Las Plagas and leave them broken shells for him to control while Saddler reigns over the world.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#82257: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:17:16 AM

[tup] Vilgax. Gotta say, that's one of the most pathetic excuses for a redeeming quality I've ever seen. I'm actually surprised this thread took it seriously at one point.

Also, easy, easy [tup] for Modru.

You know, I'm playing Shadow of Mordor for the first time in preparation for its sequel. It's interesting thinking about Sauron. I've only seen the film trilogy, but his write up barely mentions anything from Lot R's books. I am inclined to believe we wouldn't have him listed were he not given his The Silmarillion rap sheet.

As for Shadow of Mordor? I think this version of our favourite big-spiky-armour-darkness-flame-eye-dude almost counts, but is too far offscreen.

EDIT: I took the liberty of reserving Kingdom Hearts III and Toy Story 4 for discussion. Do PM me if you object or want it for yourself.

edited 28th Apr '17 8:24:48 AM by PolarPhantom

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82258: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:27:23 AM

Lighty, should the two Ninja movies be grouped together somehow?

Also, anyone mind if I wait for OE's Eichhorst writeup?

Finally, this is the 6th RE entry (plus the films).

edited 28th Apr '17 8:34:38 AM by ACW

MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#82259: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:49:43 AM

Now that it's the 28th, we can discuss the 8th Fast and Furious film, The Fate of the Furious. I want to nominate the villain, Cipher (Charlize Theron). However, there's one problem:

She's going to be the villain in these final 3 movies of the series, so her role is not over. However, her actions were too heinous in Fate not to qualify.

The work: Fate of the Furious is the 8th film in the Fast and Furious series. The series started out as mere street racing flicks but changed into big blockbuster action around the 5th film.

From mere street racing gang leaders as villains, the series had stuff like big crime bosses and terrorists as villains. However, this 8th movie shows that some villains can be forgiven and pull a Heel–Face Turn. So, being irredeemable is pretty hard.

Who is she?: Cipher is a powerful hacker and villain of the film. She gets Dom to betray his family and aid her in her goals of obtaining nuclear firepower and become an one-woman army fully willing to attack any nation in the world.

What has she done?: She initially poses as a random woman in Cuba who asks Dom for help to fix her car. She then quickly shows her true colors, basically stating that she was behind the two previous villains in the series, having her plans foiled by Toretto twice. With a mysterious video, she blackmails him into aiding her.

In her stealth plane, a big revelation ensues: Elena Neves, the police officer from the 5th-7th movies, was kidnapped by Cipher and kept into a cell along with her newborn baby, Dom's son. He didn't know he was a father, and shares a brief moment of joy with him. Cipher then threatens to kill the baby if Dom doesn't follow her plan to the letter. This enrages him, but he is ultimately powerless to resist.

Later, she and Dom attack Mr. Nobody's headquarters to steal the God's Eye device (the MacGuffin of the 7th film). There, another revelation ensues, further showing Cipher's role as The Corrupter: Deckard Shaw (movie 7 villain) has a grudge against the hacker for driving his brother Owen Shaw (movie 6 villain) into becoming a bad guy. She mocks him for being part of the losing team. She finally rubs salt into the wound by kissing Dom in front of Letty, just to spite her.

Her next move is in New York, which shows how low she can get: she targets a Russian Minister of Defense to steal the nuclear codes from him. For that, she uses her skills to take control of hundreds of remote controlled cars in New York and cause untold panic and chaos, crashing them everywhere- many of them possibly with people inside! When Dom gets the nuclear codes from the man, he gets into a fight with his teammates, which culminates in Dom and Letty in an alley, as she gets the code from his hands. Then Cipher's henchman, Connor Rhodes threatens her at gunpoint to give him the briefcase, but Dom points a gun at him, allowing Letty to escape. This doesn't end well for him.

Back on the plane, Cipher was aware of the failure. She then Has Elena bound and gagged, with Connor pointing a gun at her. Though Dom protests, she orders him to kill Neves, right in front of Dom and in full hearing range of the baby. This is clearly portrayed as her Moral Event Horizon.

Next, at a Russian base who was taken over by separatists, she competes against Ramsey (the hackette of the heroes) for the control of a nuclear submarine. After being set back one time too many, she stars to lose her cool, but she manages to control it for enough time to launch infrared missiles on Dom, but fails to kill him.

Back on her plane, the Shaw brothers raid the place to rescue the baby. Deckard reaches her, but she quickly offers him a Sadistic Choice: opening the airplane hatch, Shaw could either tackle her right there but risk having the baby fall off or protect the child and having her escape. He chooses the latter.

Freudian excuses or redeeming/mitigating factors: Pretty much none. She states she wants to restore a sense of accountability for the world with nuclear firepower, but it is never stated what her ideology is or what is her grievance against the world. She seems to do it For the Evulz.

Speaking of this, she likes to give thoughtful justifications for her actions, but is clear she is lying. She states not to recognize feelings like love above a mere biological concept related to survival instincts, indicating a deep Lack of Empathy. She also displays the trope Evil Cannot Comprehend Good: she claims that Dom values more the freedom to do as he pleases more than his family and doesn't get why Dom wouldn't humiliate the Cuban racer he defeated at the beginning.

She is also a massive hypocrite: she claims to value the freedom to do as one pleases above anything, but forces Dom into her servitude, giving him no freedom at all. Her actions cause the bold and utter badass Dom Toretto to cry and shout in anger.

According to a line by Ramsey, she is The Dreaded in the hacking community: even Anonymous fears her. Coupled with Toretto's hate and disgust for her, she causes all three reactions a CM should.

Heinous standard: Before her, there was Owen Shaw in the 6th film, another sociopath like her who dismissed Dom's affection towards family as a weakness. He crushed many civilians on a Spanish freeway when in a tank- which wasn't a needed maneuver to escape the heroes. He openly referred to his teammates as tools to him, which would be discarded at will. Yet, Owen was rectonned as having been a good man corrupted by Cipher, and gets to be forgiven in the end.

As for Deckard Shaw in the 7th film, he was less evil than his brother, and was humanized enough in the 8th film and eventually forgiven and became good again.

If that could happen to the Shaws, what's not to say it can happen to Cipher? Though I doubt it could happen.

Final verdict: Going solely by Fate, yes. This might change, though.

edited 28th Apr '17 8:51:19 AM by MatLShini

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#82260: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:49:46 AM

[up] Camberf reserved the discussion.

[tup] Vilgax and Modru

When does the discussion for Guardians of the Galaxy 2 start? Wikipedia says the release date is May 5 but apparently the movie also premiered on April 19th...

edited 28th Apr '17 8:50:42 AM by Silverblade2

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#82261: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:54:19 AM

@Master Ghandalf

Since you've read Hel's Crucible, even if it was a while ago, do you have any more notable acts from Modru that we should put in his write-up? It looks like he'll be going up, and while he can qualify based on Iron Tower alone, I'd like to make the list as complete as possible.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82262: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:54:52 AM

Let's do May 19th.

I had P Med Largo a few months ago if she couldn't if I could do the EP for that and SW...never got a response, though. Anyone mind if I cover this one?

edited 28th Apr '17 8:55:38 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82263: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:55:55 AM

Seconding May 19 for Guardians 2, as that's the general release date I believe.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#82264: Apr 28th 2017 at 8:59:03 AM

[up][up][up][up] We go by US release dates, so whichever date is the one in Americuh. (I got [nja]'d on this one. So that's what that feels like...)

I'll wait till Fried Warthog does his Effort Post to vote on Furiosa.

edited 28th Apr '17 9:30:54 AM by PolarPhantom

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#82265: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:01:31 AM

I don't know, I don't feel all that comfortable voting on Cipher when her arc isn't over.

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#82267: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:23:32 AM

@Ambar: Off the top of my head, I can't think of any particular atrocities Modru adds to his rap sheet that he wasn't also doing in Iron Tower, though he does get up to much of the same stuff. Hel's Crucible does go into a bit more detail about how emissaries (or surrogates, another term for the same people) are created, making it clear that Modru can Mind Rape anyone into a drooling Empty Shell to be used for this purpose, which he in fact does to a sympathetic minor character. There's also one lovely scene where he has his armies dismember prisoners of war and enemy casualties and catapult the pieces into a besieged city in an effort to spread disease, and having allied with the dragon Daagor he's able to cause widespread destruction with a living WMD in a way he wasn't able to in Iron Tower. Otherwise I can't think of anything else to add to his rap sheet, and I don't have the books handy to double check.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#82268: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:33:33 AM

[up]That's all good stuff to mention—especially the part about Mind Rape. While that was pretty heavily implied vis a vis his emissaries in the prior books, this confirms it, so nobody can claim he was "just" possessing people who were born brain damaged or something.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#82269: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:36:50 AM

The only thing that makes me hesitate on Modru, is "unable to bear the sight of his own evil"...What's that about?

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#82270: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:15:23 AM

Sounds like Cipher pretty clearly falls under this: "we will automatically table all discussion on a character from an ongoing series. For one, it's very easy to get caught up in the excitement of something that was just enjoyed. For another, we don't know what the writers are going to do until everything is over." if she's going to be in the next three films as well.

edited 28th Apr '17 10:16:06 AM by Madrugada

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#82271: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:20:58 AM

[up][up] Ah, yes, I was also wondering about that. Still in support, but I'm genuinely curious. Oh, and ACW, I think the revamp for DC Animation looks good. I am in favour of it.

[up] I would agree with you if this was a comic or tv show, but with films we have years between installments. Star Wars is an exception, I feel.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#82272: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:25:24 AM

I'm putting Cipher in the "Wait and See" pile. Also, in the future, MatLShini, look at the Discussion Dates page before discussing someone from an upcoming work. Camberf had already reserved discussion for this film.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#82273: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:27:27 AM

I would be tempted to say vote now and if anything mitigating comes up, we could just remove the entry no problem.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#82274: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:28:40 AM

There's no problem in a discussion of Cipher now. If she does enough to qualify then put her up. If anything changes, add to or delete her as the next films come out.

Everyone ok with me handling GOTG if Largo's out?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#82275: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:29:14 AM

@Silverblade 2, Tyk 5919 Camberf forfeited the discussion. Lord Xavius said he would do it, but did that change?

Didn't like that Owen not only survived, but got redeemed. The way they did it though? Well played.

We voted up Oberhauser even though he's meant to return, so I don't see why not. His arc's not over and yet there was still enough to judge him. As I believe is also the case here with Fate of the Furious.

[tup] to Cipher. What a bitch! Can't stand that she got away, but that's a credit to Charlize Theron though. Her first CM?

[down]Correct. I remember when it happened.

edited 28th Apr '17 10:34:33 AM by futuremoviewriter


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