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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#81827: Apr 22nd 2017 at 11:59:29 AM

[tup] Alex, Alex, and Dale (I'd make a King of the Hill joke but someone beat me to the punch).

[tdown] Chara.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81828: Apr 22nd 2017 at 12:54:38 PM

Anime this time.

What's The Work?

Read or Die is an OVA based on novels, concerning a secret organization in British intelligence known as The Library, centering on the eccentric bibliophile secret agent "Paper": Yomiko Readman. Yomiko ends up opposing a mysterious group of supervillains calling themselves "I-jin" ("Geniuses") who oddly resemble notable figures from history, the I-jin want (among other things) a book once owned by Beethoven that Yomiko has recently purchased, within which lies the key to an evil plan with world-wide consequences...Yomiko's own partner Nancy, Codename Ms. Deep, is a former member as well.

Who's the villain?

Ikkyu, the leader of the I-Jin and a misanthropic psychopath who desires the utter eradication of all humankind. The truth ends up revealed that Ikkyu is a clone of the original Japanese poet Ikkyu Soujun. Utilizing his followers, Ikkyu orchestrates a series of brutal terrorist attacks that leave hundreds of innocents, at least, dead. In the first OVA, he have his men steal Yomiko's book, leading her to chase said agent to get it back which nearly ends up with a plane crashed into the London metropolitan area....the book is special in a way I'll soon detail.

Ikkyu then makes himself known to the world by broadcasting a live video recording, revealing his hatred of humanity and plans to wipe them all out...by using the lost book Beethoven had owned, which contains the formula for a "Suicide Symphony" by Ikkyu, Ikkyu will broadcast the tune worldwide via a satellite, and the exact musical frequencies of the song will drive all who hear it to kill themselves. To test it, Ikkyu has it broadcast on a room full of government agents, causing them to gruesomely kill themselves. He sets up preparations to utilize a huge satellite to transmit it worldwide.

At Ikkyu's urging, Miss Deep, real name Nancy Makuhari seemingly turns on the Library and rejoins him. It turns out that Nancy is an I-Jin fully: being a clone of the German spy Mata Hari, created by Ikkyu to be his lover. Unfortunately, Nancy began to doubt Ikkyu's goals, as she experienced compassion for humanity and especially cared deeply for Yomiko. Ikkyu...simply creates another clone of Nancy and seemingly kills the original in front of Yomiko.

The American Navy launches to prevent Ikkyu from launching his satellite, leading to him wiping out a great deal of their forces and launches the satellite. Yomiko engages him in a battle, only for Nancy to show up...having survived and defeated her clone, pretending to be said clone to get close to Ikkyu...before using her powers (able to slip through solid matter) to reach into Ikkyu's chest and crush his heart in her bare fist. Ikkyu dies whining about her being a 'traitorous bitch.' Yomiko sets the satellite to self destruct, but Nancy, both out of her love for Ikkyu and desire to atone for her crimes in making his plans possible, remains behind to die on the satellite, while her clone lives, albeit with amnesia.

Fruedian Excuse?

Honestly? None. Ikkyu is a clone, but these clones have full agency. Nothing made him turn on the British and humanity. He just acquires a severe god-complex where he is the superior being and they're the obsolete remnants of yesterday.

Mitigting Qualities?

Likewise, none. Ikkyu has no care for any other I-Jin, human, and especially not Nancy. He'd happily sacrifice all his followers just to gain a temporary advantage and while he is Nancy's lover...he has nothing but lust for her, clones her when he feels she's getting too independent and tries to murder her with no remorse. While Nancy cares for him (musing he's 'a heartless bastard but you don't deserve to die alone' at the end), nothing justifies this and we're given no reason to feel any sympathy for Ikkyu whatsoever.

Heinous Standard?

Easily the worst in the OVA. I've heard in the novels./original manga, Yomiko's superior Joker is quite evil himself, but I have no basis for comparison, especially with Ikkyu's nastiness and attempted bodycount.

'Conclusion?

Yep, keeper.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#81829: Apr 22nd 2017 at 12:58:57 PM

[tup] Ikkyu

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#81832: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:28:43 PM

Read Or Die sounds positively insane.

Regardless, [tup] The clone of Ikkyu.

I hear the real guy was pretty cool.

Fortunately, he's a clone. No Historical Villain Upgrade here unless Lighty left our something really nuts.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:29:27 PM by PolarPhantom

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81833: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:40:47 PM

Yea to Ikkyu.

Tuning in on Chara, though... having played the game, no to Chara. Their entire role is shrouded in way too much mystery to get any solid grasp on their motivation. I also have to chip into the heinous standard again by lieu of the fact Chara can actually be out-heinoused by the Player, who can essentially recreate and destroy the world as many times as they please. The second time they do so, Chara even states that they're wracked with a "perverted sentimentality" even they can't understand; while it's open to interpretation how much of this is out of standard and how much is just more manipulation, ultimately, there's too much against Chara for me to be comfortable voting them up.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:40:56 PM by Scraggle

speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#81834: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:48:21 PM

Um, just wondering, but shouldn't the YMMV page of Legion (2017) have the entry by now, since we voted him up and a proposed write-up was made?

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:48:30 PM by speyeker

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#81835: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:48:28 PM

[tup] Ikkyu. Funny, when I say it out loud it sounds like IQ.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#81836: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:52:34 PM

Ok, I'd argue against the I also have to chip into the heinous standard again by lieu of the fact Chara can actually be out-heinoused by the Player, who can essentially recreate and destroy the world as many times as they pleas bit since Chara would be doing that as well seeing as how the player destroys the world through Chara.

Hell, I'd argue the destroy the world as many times as they please goes even more in Chara's factor for heinousness considering how the player can reject Chara's offer, yet Chara will force the player to do it anyway, essentially destroying the world multiple times against the player's will.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:53:17 PM by Awesomekid42

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#81840: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:29:42 PM

A 'No' to Chara for too much ambiguity surrounding him (IKO), and Ikkyu is a Keeper. What a jackhole he was.

Alrighty, before I get all my pending write-ups up, I wanted to inquire to the thread about these possible pics for Monster.BIONICLE. Any and all opinions are welcome. (If wanted, we could also do a combo of two or three of the pics, as most of them take place within the same scene).

Teridax brutalizing Mata Nui.

Teridax strangling Mata Nui while his forces ravage the land.

Teridax towering over Mata Nui and a decimated Bara Magna.

Teridax preparing to crush numerous Matoran for fun.

Teridax preparing to annihialte Bara Magna (The image may or may not look choppy BTW. On my phone it looks sort of blurry, but on my PC it looks fine. Odd.

Teridax disintegrating numerous friends of Mata Nui for fun.

Thoughts?

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:30:31 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81841: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:31:44 PM

I could go with any of the images.

P.S. Ravok, check your PMs.

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:34:30 PM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81842: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:32:40 PM

[up][up] First or fourth. Have no idea what's happening in the other pictures, so they're not going to work.

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#81843: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:36:03 PM

Ditto with the first or fourth pics.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#81844: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:42:33 PM

[tup] Ikkyu. I think the fourth Bionicle image is probably best, although the first is also good.

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:43:49 PM by TommyFresh

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81845: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:46:09 PM

Oh, someone also made a work page for Stone Cold. Could someone properly crosswick Chains' entry from Film P To Z to the YMMV page? There's still no link on Chains' entry on Film page to the work page itself.

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:49:29 PM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81846: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:52:20 PM

[up] Looks like the entry's already crosswicked to the YMMV page. I requested the thing on the main film page to link to the work page.

If we do use the first Teridax image, here's it all ready to go (there's another quote we can use for the page):

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/teridax_3.png
"The people of the world are builders. But look into their hearts, and you will find they also have the power to destroy. I am that power. I am destruction. And I WILL destroy you."

And that other quote:

"But I know The Makuta is here now, in these burnt trees, and in the dead soil. All of these things were destroyed by The Makuta, but he never left them. That is how he becomes strong. That is what The Makuta does. He destroys things."
Matoran Kapura about Makuta Teridax, Mata Nui Online Game

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:56:58 PM by ACW

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#81848: Apr 22nd 2017 at 3:15:01 PM

[up][up] Looks great to me.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#81849: Apr 22nd 2017 at 3:45:47 PM

With no new information [tdown] to Chara. It's just the same arguement phrased differently.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81850: Apr 22nd 2017 at 3:47:32 PM

Alright, time for my next Garth Ennis keeper. This should be a quickie... Meant to have this one up last night, but I passed out. Let's get to the chase.

What's the setting?

Garth Ennis gets to have some fun here with his usual vigilante justice story... in his comic Red Team, we follow a squad of cops, Eddie Mellinger, Trudy Giroux, Duke Wylie and George Winburn, who form the N.Y.P.D.'s most elite anti-narcotics unit. The Red Team's gotten sick of their most wanted target, a gangster named Clinton, having consistently avoided justice for over two years due to the perceived incompetence of the department, so they decide to take matters into their own hands and kill Clinton outside the view of the law. This goes flawlessly... and, naturally, Red Team doesn't stop there, targeting one Asshole Victim after another when justice fails to fall on them. Unfortunately for them, they're not the only ones doing this, as is revealed in the fifth issue. The other cop pursuing this has significantly less sympathetic motives. Meet Sgt. Paul O'Dwyer.

Who is O'Dwyer? What has he done?

O'Dwyer's a lean, goatee'd cop who sort of serves as an on-and-off rival to the Red Team. Known for never letting someone's intentions get by him and known even better for his ruthless expertise in busting criminals, O'Dwyer naturally harbors a dark secret. He's been at the game much before Red Team... with his squad, O'Dwyer regularly intercepts narcotics trades and proceeds to massacre everyone in the area, both criminals and passive bystanders, before looting what they find for their own profit. While Red Team actively only seeks the worst of the worst to kill? Everyone that wouldn't be missed by the law is fair game to O'Dwyer. Duke starts to get rightfully suspicious when O'Dwyer decides to reopen the Clinton case, but during a night of surveillance, Red Team sees one of O'Dwyer's busts in full glory. O'Dwyer and his men, cloaked all in black garb, barge into an apartment and brutally slaughter every single person on the premises (totaling up to around a dozen), gunning them down into find red mush before dismembering their corpses with machetes. A prominent Celtic tattoo on his arm gives O'Dwyer away to Trudy as she watches the carnage in horror, and she decides to confer with the rest of Red Team in hitting O'Dwyer as well.

During a funeral for one of the police department's shittier cops, O'Dwyer goads Duke into a handshake and takes Duke's brief hesitance at shaking his hand to confirm his own suspicions. Desperately trying to figure out a solution to take O'Dwyer out without being caught themselves, Red Team tries to lure O'Dwyer and his men to a disused cabin outside of the city under the guise of meeting a contact. O'Dwyer, unfortunately, picks up on the trap, and the rest of his men ambush Red Team, killing both Duke and George and leaving Trudy and Eddie reeling for cover. O'Dwyer gleefully mocks the two while standing over Duke and George's bodies and the shoot-out continues, which ends up with a few more of O'Dwyer's men killed — much to his indifference — and O'Dwyer and two of his surviving goons in the cabin. O'Dwyer attempts to force one of his own men into confronting Eddie and Trudy out of the cabin at gunpoint, but thankfully, Trudy manages to snipe the bastard in his tracks, and she and Eddie finish off O'Dwyer's men. The wounded Eddie confronts O'Dwyer as he bleeds out and recites the rules Red Team had set in place for catching criminals, punctuating each one with a shot into O'Dwyer before he finishes the bastard off with a shot through the head.

Any mitigating factors?

Per the usual with Ennis' villains, none with the man himself. He's got no care for any of his associates and he has absolutely none of the standards Red Team has, regularly committing mass murder purely for profit. The only thing we have to talk about is the heinous standard, given the fact the heroes are pretty far from being saints themselves and they target the worst of the worst. My thoughts on that? O'Dwyer's the only real villain who engages in onscreen villainy. We see his massacres in full detail while all of the other criminals Red Team hits only have their crimes mentioned in passing (hell, the criminals themselves are only usually onscreen for about two or three panels before they're killed). As for Red Team themselves? O'Dwyer is very, very clearly meant to be the darker of two blacks here; Red Team has absolutely no qualms with cold-blooded murder, but they explicitly only target those who absolutely deserve it and never take any innocent lives. O'Dwyer forsakes all of that purely for profit, and given how long he's implied to have been doing this, he's got Red Team mooched in body count ten to one.

The guy's by far the most corrupt in the story and he's got no redeeming qualities. Pass on all counts.

Conclusion?

Keep.

Thoughts?

edited 22nd Apr '17 3:56:58 PM by Scraggle


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