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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#81626: Apr 20th 2017 at 3:54:36 PM

[tup] Shao.

Leaning [tdown] on the Commander. I remember the story, but don't remember all that much from the character himself.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81627: Apr 20th 2017 at 3:59:40 PM

[tup] to Shao.

the Commander seems to have enough characterization to qualify I'll give him a [tup] as well

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81628: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:09:26 PM

Here's my draft for Dragomirov:

Colonel Count Vladimir Dragomirov is a cavalry commander in India. He also has a foothold in the opium trade. To cover his tracks, Dragomirov slaughters the village that had been growing the plants needed to make opium, as well as a garrison of British soldiers, leaving their commander tied up naked and Exposed to the Elements. Dragomirov and his men "save" a baggage train led by Colonel Richard Sharpe, but only to make scapegoats of a group of bandits opposing them. When Sharpe is separated from the baggage train along with Marie-Angelique, fiancé of Dragomirov's dragon Joubert, Dragomirov threatens to have her gang-raped by his men unless Sharpe gives up the train, then has Sharpe tied up in a pit of snakes. When Sharpe and Marie-Angelique escape, Dragomirov pursues them to a village where the train has stopped, murders a priest that tries to disuade him while telling the man "God does no work on a Sunday" before attacking the village with the intent of murdering everyone there. Greedy and treacherous, Dragomirov didn't care who he murdered as long as he gained something from it.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#81629: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:13:59 PM

The only times the commander is mentioned is towards the end when he didn't let the subjects be euthanized and when he orders three researchers to be sealed in the chamber. Outside of those two moments he gets no characterization. I feel like that's not really enough so I'm voting [tdown].

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#81630: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:16:45 PM

I don't remember the Commander. I'll need to reread the story.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81631: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:18:37 PM

[up][up][up] Please add to the drafts as well.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#81632: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:55:30 PM

sorry this took a while. Real life got in the way:

Tark:

Tark is a low-level driver of a drug boat. Tired of being a low-level driver, he decides to rob his bosses in a major drug deal. In the middle of a tropical storm, he has three of his associates beat up and knock out two guards of the boat. He mutilates, then castrates one guard, and decides to force the other guard to swallow his own blood with his hands tied behind his back. When he gets to the drop off point of the deal he murders everybody crewing the operation. He then proceeds to betray and kill each and every one of his associates and even tries to kill some innocent people who get in the way. Motivated simply by greed, no one in the novel outshines Tark when it comes to sadism or disloyalty.

edited 20th Apr '17 4:55:58 PM by jjjj2

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#81633: Apr 20th 2017 at 4:57:44 PM

[tup] Shao Kahn

[tdown] Commander due to lack of screentime/characterization.

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81634: Apr 20th 2017 at 5:03:08 PM

[up][up]

  • What's the work?
  • Was he even approved?
  • If so, please add here.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#81635: Apr 20th 2017 at 5:05:07 PM

Tricky Business

Yes we discussed him on april 1st.

Sure.

edited 20th Apr '17 5:05:21 PM by jjjj2

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81636: Apr 20th 2017 at 5:50:38 PM

  • Once Upon a Time in Wonderland: Jafar, the Big Bad of this Spin-Off, is a true Bastard Bastard and Evil Sorcerer extraordinaire whose plan is to enslave three genies and use their combined magical powers to wish for the rules of magic to be changed so that he may become the all-powerful ruler of Wonderland. Cruel, utterly ruthless, devoid of empathy, and detached from humanity, not an episode goes by in which he does not threaten, manipulate, torture, murder, or all at once in order to get what he wants. Jafar's most noteworthy atrocities were changing the woman who loved him and taught him sorcery into his serpent staff; threatening to murder Alice's father in order to make her surrender her two remaining magic wishes; and not only murdering a young woman in cold blood just to get a reaction out of her lover, but later reviving her and making her fall in love with him right in front of said lover, who is powerless to stop it Worst of all is that we're led to believe that he ultimately just wants love from his abusive father and wishes to change the rules of magic in order to force him to give him affection, but it's revealed that he really wanted to make his father love him so that the peace of mind and vengeance he'd get out of murdering him afterwards would be sweeter. In the end, all Jafar truly wanted was power to do whatever he pleased with.
  • In season 6 of the main series, it is revealed that, in addition to his above actions, Jafar made himself Royal Vizier of his home kingdom of Agrabah. Besides torturing and killing more people with his dark magic for his amusement (including turning Prince Achmed into a wooden staff, he had deceived Princess Jasmine into giving him the royal family's enchanted ring, threatening to destroy Agrabah if she didn't give it to him as a marriage offering. With the ring in his possession, Jafar revealed that wanting Jasmine to wed him was a ruse and he was now able to magically disintegrate all of Agrabah, transforming the entire physical kingdom into a ghostly form of itself that was sealed in limbo within the royal ring along with the souls of all of its inhabitants for many years afterwards. He did this purely out of spite for his home and its people, and to make both Aladdin and Jasmine suffer from the despair of their failure to protect the kingdom from him.
  • Paris Trout: In this 1991 film which aired on Showtime and which was adapted from the 1988 novel by Pete Dexter, Paris Trout is a racist shopkeeper who loans a car to an African American named Henry Sayers. When Henry does not pay back the loan, Trout goes to the Sayers house with an employee named Buster Devonne to demand payment. When the family does not give him the money, Trout and Devonne shoot the mother, Mary, along with the 12-year-old daughter, Rosie. Arrested for his crime, Trout and Devonne lie that the family attacked them, and they were only defending themselves. Before his court date, Trout abuses his wife by dunking her under water and sodomizing her with a wine bottle. Upon learning that his wife has been cheating on him, Trout kills his mother, before attempting to kill his wife. When the man that had sex with his wife appears, Trout kills him instead, before killing himself.
  • Colonel Count Vladimir Dragomirov, from Sharpe's Peril, is a cavalry commander in India, who also has a foothold in the opium trade. To cover his tracks, Dragomirov slaughters the village that had been growing the plants needed to make opium, as well as a garrison of British soldiers, leaving their commander tied up naked and Exposed to the Elements. Dragomirov and his men "save" a baggage train led by Colonel Richard Sharpe, but only to make scapegoats of a group of bandits opposing them. When Sharpe is separated from the baggage train along with Marie-Angelique, the fiancé of Dragomirov's dragon Major Philippe Joubert, Dragomirov threatens to have her gang-raped by his men unless Sharpe gives up the train, then has Sharpe tied up in a pit of snakes. When Sharpe and Marie-Angelique escape, Dragomirov pursues them to a village where the train has stopped, murders a priest that tries to dissuade him while telling the man "God does no work on a Sunday", and attacks the village with the intent of murdering everyone there. Greedy and treacherous, Dragomirov didn't care who he murdered as long as he gained something from it.

edited 21st Apr '17 8:31:43 AM by ACW

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81637: Apr 20th 2017 at 5:52:27 PM

So I rewatched A Clockwork Orange and wondering why Alex DeLarge didn't count, went through the pages and didn't find an end to a discussion. I'll make an EP for my peace of mind.

Who Is He and What Does He Do?

Alex is a juvenile delinquent who leads his gang of "droogs": Georgie, Dim, and Pete. They spend their evenings haunting the streets and countryside. One night, the gang beats up an old man in the gutter and beat down another gang. They then conduct a home invasion where Alex rapes a woman and her husband to watch while taunting him, while singing "Singin' in the Rain" through the whole sequence (the wife eventually dies while the man is paralyzed). One day, Georgie tells him that the gang doesn't like his leadership and wants more profit. Alex beats him and Dim into submission before their next robbery. Alex gets into a fight with the occupant and kills her. When he arrives outside, Dim stuns him and the gang flees, leaving him to be captured by the police. While in prison, Alex volunteers to undergo an experimental treatment known as the Ludovico Technique for a chance to get out of prison and go right back to rape and ultraviolence. The result of the experiment is that if Alex thinks of anything violent, he will get violently sick. Alex is turned loose into society and though he thinks of doing violence when encountering people he's abused, he can't get himself to do it, even in self-defense. Eventually, Alex attempts suicide but bungles it. When he wakes up, Alex finds that the Ludovico Technique has been reversed and he is right back to his psychopathic self. "I was cured, alright."

Freudian Excuse?

None at all. Alex is For the Evulz personified. One of the messages of the film is that "you can't make someone good, they have to choose. And some people, like Alex, can't be reasoned with."

Mitigating Circumstances?

The story goes out of its way to make people feel sorry for Alex in the second half when he's under the Ludovico Technique, but it just falls flat. He's still a murderous, rape-happy psychopath, and nothing can change that.

Heinousness?

He could always choose to be a good man (and does in the book), but he chooses not to, because it's more fun for him to be a psychopath.

edited 20th Apr '17 5:52:52 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81638: Apr 20th 2017 at 5:58:37 PM

[up]Note: This is the film version I'm proposing.

edited 20th Apr '17 5:58:47 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81639: Apr 20th 2017 at 6:02:21 PM

Yeah, because in the novel (at least the original version), he apparently renounced violence. The film one...doesn't seem like it, If he counts, he'd be Malcolm's second CM.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81640: Apr 20th 2017 at 6:06:15 PM

So what do you think?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#81641: Apr 20th 2017 at 6:16:11 PM

Going off the EP I'll give the Commander a [tup].

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#81642: Apr 20th 2017 at 6:43:00 PM

Expect my writeup for Shido tomorrow. I would have done it today, but other priorities got in the way.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81644: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:00:13 PM

No to the Commander. Not characterized to the point where he qualifies for this trope. As for film!Alex? No to him as well. Ambiguous ending aside, the fact is the film still goes out of its way to portray Alex with a degree of sympathy. YMMV all you want as to how well it works, but to me, that notion disqualifies him instantly.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81645: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:01:35 PM

As I said, it falls flat.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81646: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:04:32 PM

The other issue is the film presents Alex's murderous impulses as this kind of...boyish immaturity rather than just pure evil. The government itself is also so horrible it kind of makes Alex look...less evil

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#81647: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:07:42 PM

So who's worse? And I wouldn't call what he does boyish.

edited 20th Apr '17 7:08:11 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#81648: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:16:12 PM

For Tricky Business could you replace the opening with: "Tark is a low-level driver of a drug boat. Tired of his position"

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#81649: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:18:35 PM

[tdown] Commander

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#81650: Apr 20th 2017 at 7:21:32 PM

[tdown] to Alex. I haven't seen the film, but to my understanding it portrays him as a victim that you're still supposed to feel a degree of sympathy for in spite of how horrible he is.

edited 20th Apr '17 7:21:52 PM by Karxrida


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