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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#81526: Apr 19th 2017 at 11:35:44 AM

So, here we are with Slade...

[tup] Mewtwo.

edited 19th Apr '17 11:36:17 AM by AustinDR

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#81527: Apr 19th 2017 at 11:39:03 AM

[up][up] I think he meant Slade.

Change form no to abstain.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81528: Apr 19th 2017 at 12:11:44 PM

So who's going to tally Slade's votes and do his writeup?

(Side note: whatever the interpretation of Slade's final moment may be, the moment itself was definitely something of a Tear Jerker NOT because Slade meets his well-deserved end, but because it's Miguel Ferrer saying "So long" as his final line. sad)

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81529: Apr 19th 2017 at 12:27:16 PM

[up] Lighty. His proposal, his writeup. That's generally how we do things here.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#81530: Apr 19th 2017 at 12:27:54 PM

I'll vote [tup] to Mewtwo from the Nuzlocke comic.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81531: Apr 19th 2017 at 12:29:57 PM

[tup] Mewtwo say does his entry go to the Pokemon page since its a Webcomic and not a Fanwork?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#81532: Apr 19th 2017 at 12:41:43 PM

[up] No. Nuzlocke comics have nothing to do with the main Pokemon canon, whatsoever. I think the only reason something like STC Online gets a pass is because it's a continuation of a Cut Short work that's received both explicit approval and outright contributions from the original creators of STC.

edited 19th Apr '17 12:41:56 PM by Scraggle

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#81533: Apr 19th 2017 at 1:00:06 PM

Yeah, Mewtwo definitely wouldn't go on the Pokemon page, though that does beg the question if his entry will go under fan works or webcomics.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#81536: Apr 19th 2017 at 1:58:32 PM

I still think that it's a bit premature to say that Hux has been disqualified. The Freudian Excuse sounds legitimate, but we have had other monsters with strong Freudian excuses, Koba, Once Upon A Time! Jafar, and Jack Jr for example. I can understand why he would become a Knight Templar, but destroying an entire star system seems to demolish all sympathy for him. Once his arc is finished, we can discuss him, bring up his backstory, see what new actions, if any, he has committed in the following movies, and discuss weather or not he qualifies then. He may get a redeeming feature in the future that will deffinately disqualify him. I would be okay with that, but for now, I suggest we wait.

Anyway, here is a write up for Paris Trout:

  • Paris Trout: Paris Trout is a racist shopkeeper who loans a car to an African American named Henry Sayers. When Henry does not pay back the loan, Trout goes to the Sayers house with an employee named Buster Devonne to demand payment. When the family does not give him the money, Trout and Devonne shoot the mother, Mary, along with the 12 year old daughter, Rosie. Arrested for his crime, Trout and Devonne lie that the family attacked them, and they shot in self defense. Before his court date, Trout abuses his wife by dunking her under water and sodomizing her with a wine bottle. Upon learning that his wife has been cheating on him, Trout kills his mother, before attempting to kill his wife. When the man that had sex with his wife appears, Trout kills him instead, before killing himself.

edited 19th Apr '17 2:09:55 PM by bobg

jjj
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81537: Apr 19th 2017 at 2:05:41 PM

I can understand why he would become a Knight Templar, but destroying an entire star system seems to demolish all sympathy for him.

That wasn't something Hux alone chose to do, though - Supreme Leader Snoke OK'd the whole thing and there were a ton of First Order officers in support of it. Tarkin has his CM status because he has crimes that are entirely of his own choosing (like blowing up Alderan) in addition to crimes on the Emperor's orders, ditto Orson Krennic. Hux, so far, does not have those. His worst action was done in service of Snoke, who's the most likely candidate from Complete Monsterdom in the new trilogy.

[down] He's more likely to turn out Faux Affably Evil, much like Palpatine himself in the prequels.

edited 19th Apr '17 3:37:30 PM by ANewMan

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#81538: Apr 19th 2017 at 2:15:53 PM

[up] Hmm. Good point. Like I said, we will just have to wait until Hux's arc is over before we can decide. Same goes with Snoke and Phasma. Although Snoke's trope page character sheet makes it seem like he won't qualify, what with listing him as Affably Evil and such. Of course, that's one of the most misused tropes on this site.

jjj
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#81539: Apr 19th 2017 at 3:41:09 PM

[up]Plus, at this point we know very little about Snoke's goals or what's really going on in his head; we just see how he chooses to present himself to Ren and Hux, both of whom he's using. He could easily be more (or less) profoundly malevolent than his outward demeanor suggests.

edited 19th Apr '17 3:41:45 PM by MasterGhandalf

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81540: Apr 19th 2017 at 4:30:29 PM

You know I still these tropes on Ardyn Izuna

Tragic Monster: He was once a noble healer who sacrificed his very soul to aid the people by assimilating an untold number of daemons into himself. However, he ended up being ostracized by the Astrals and the people of Lucis, resulting in him becoming a villain.

Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: He was denied ascension by the Astrals and branded an outcast by the very people he so selflessly aided. Small wonder that he wishes to destroy everything. Granted, they only did so because they knew that the daemons he absorbed were beginning to mess with his mind.

Since we already discussed that he was Approved as a CM can I get rid of these tropes?

[down] I was only referring to these tropes entries on Ardyn's page.

edited 19th Apr '17 4:35:34 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81541: Apr 19th 2017 at 4:31:38 PM

This is YMMV. We don't have to fully police other tropes there.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81543: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:06:00 PM

[up][up][up] Tragic Monster I think still fits Ardyn. The other trope less so - if the game isn't actively trying to depict Ardyn as a sort of Woobie that we should all pity, that trope is getting misused.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81544: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:10:10 PM

[up] Okay I'll just get rid of the Wobble entry and change the Tragic Monster part to Fallen Hero to a Freudian Excuse since Complete monsters can have those as long as their atrocities outweighs the justifications

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#81545: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:40:28 PM

I, um, I'm not sure those should be cut from Ardyn's character page. Unlike examples where a person is flat-out wrong in adding an example—I think someone once added Ramsay giving Theon a bath as a heartwarming moment, blatantly ignoring everything about the characters and scenario—the tropes on Ardyn's page seem like pretty valid interpretations of the character based on what Ardyn's stated backstory in the game.

edited 19th Apr '17 6:41:22 PM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81546: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:47:58 PM

Hence, again, why we're YMMV and don't need to police other tropes unless it's blatantly wrong. I sure as hell don't agree with the Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds trope there, though. Ardyn is pretty blatantly unsympathetic as a villain throughout and the latest DLC has him being even worse.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81547: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:09:58 PM

Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is the only Woobie trope that's tricky to deal with in terms of characters voted to be a CM since it can relate to villains with tragedies and sympathetic plights in their backstories rather than their present day characters (Jerkass Woobie is the trope for that.) Otherwise, CM and Woobie are incompatible.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:12:00 PM by ANewMan

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#81548: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:42:03 PM

Anyway, here's the write-up for Mewtwo.

  • Pokémon Hard-Mode: Mewtwo is the Big Bad of the Firered arc. A clone of the legendary Pokémon Mew, Mewtwo grew a hatred for humanity due to being tortured by one of the scientists who created him. After killing scientists who took no part in his torture in a rage and destroying the laboratory he was created in, Mewtwo came across Mew, who trapped the latter on a deserted island in hopes that it would give Mewtwo time for his anger to subside. Despite calming down and regaining sanity, Mewtwo still held his hatred of humanity despite knowing not all of them are cruel, attempting to slowly choke a human who acccidentally washed on the island shore to death simply because he believes it's been too long since he's killed somebody. Looking for a way to break the seal that keeps him trapped on the island, Mewtwo deceives Ruby into killing the three legendary birds, who kept Mewtwo's power restrained, by pretending to be the ghost of Ruby's deceased Nuzleaf. After Ruby defeats Gary and is about to be crowned Elite Four Champion, Mewtwo breaks the minds of everybody in the stadium except for Ruby, and frames Mew for it with intention of Ruby killing Mew and completely breaking the seal. Mewtwo mocks Ruby for being tricked by him and proclaims that while enjoying his newfound freedom, he might as well kill all humans while he's at it and promises to kill Ruby last as his way of "thanks".

edited 19th Apr '17 7:44:11 PM by Awesomekid42

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81549: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:55:24 PM

For Paris Trout, was this ever answered?

Also, should he go to TV (since it was released on Showtime) or films (since it had theater releases in other countries)?

He's Dennis Hopper's second CM (at least).

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#81550: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:59:29 PM

[up] After watching the climax of the film, it seems that his suicide is more of a result of his wife not treating him the way he thinks he deserves to be treated, saying "You ain't never felt sorry for me" before he kills himself. Wouldn't see that as sympathetic as much as him being selfish.


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