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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#8126: Feb 5th 2013 at 9:17:22 AM

Anybody who isn't named "Hojo" has to be cut from FFVII. No one else can measure up to that prick.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#8127: Feb 5th 2013 at 9:20:50 AM

I agree. On a purely subjective level, once I found out what Hojo had done, I wanted to see him die horribly to a degree that I did not feel for any of the other villains in the game.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8128: Feb 5th 2013 at 9:21:26 AM

ah, Dr. Hojo...been too long since I played FF VII...yes, he is the only monster in that game, by far

willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#8129: Feb 5th 2013 at 9:25:34 AM

I am not entirely sure you understood what I meant about Metalocolypes, but I suppose it unimportant anyway. I do not have a CM to propose.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#8131: Feb 5th 2013 at 12:07:21 PM

I checked the entry for Judge Bergen from FF 12 and it says he Pet the Dog once. Having not played FF 12, should we keep the example and swap in the rewrite from the Monster.Final Fantasy page? I'm not arguing against him, I just think the example needs to be edited.

Also Cid from Final Fantasy Type-0 is listed as a Complete Monster with a very weak example. And by weak I mean zero context (it just points to MEH, which just says he killed people. You might as well list Sephiroth as a monster for killing Aerith.) and no explanation. Should I cut it?

From what I remember of the game, I don't remember Cid being that heinous. He's a colossal dick, but nothing out of the ordinary of Final Fantasy villains.

edited 5th Feb '13 12:16:48 PM by Klavice

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#8132: Feb 5th 2013 at 12:11:02 PM

Isn't Burgen the guy who stands around looking menancing in a couple of cutscenes, kills the setting's counterpart to the Pope and then dies in a boss battle? I don't recall him standing out enough to qualify, but I don't remember much about FFXII.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8133: Feb 5th 2013 at 12:13:14 PM

Given what his entry says, he seems pretty frigging bad.

though his Pet the Dog is just 'call out someone for badmouthing someone.' ...that doesn't really seem like much of a disqualification.

I also think we're just about good with the DC and Vertigo page now. Seems it's pretty much finished there. Swapped out Tujiro's rewrite.

Does anyone have thoughts on the Archmage's rewrite to replace the poor stub? Or on Pong Krel with the expanded rewrite from the SW YMMV page?

Irrose, would you like to do a writeup for Jadus for the Star Wars sandbox?

Finally, this is Pre Vizsla:

  • Death Watch commander Pre Viszla. In his first appearance, you could be forgiven for just considering him a Well-Intentioned Extremist. After Dooku betrayed him for failing, however, he gets monumentally worse. He lands on a random planet and enslaves the women from a local village as servants, uses unarmed but clearly sentient droids as targets for his troops (the droids beg, for heaven's sake), and destroys the entire village and has its population killed when the village leader demands they return his people and leave. He also intended to execute Ahsoka without a fair fight, a marked difference from his duel with Obi-Wan in his first appearance.

Vizsla I'm unsure of. In his first appearance he seems to just want Mandalore to return to its warrior past and works with the bad guys for it. The next time he's there, however, he's revealed to be a hypocrite and murderer who enslaves innocent civilians and later has the village massacred by his men, pretty onscreen. He also intended to have Ahsoka, the heroine, executed without a fair fight, viewing her as unworthy.

It's Vizsla's final appearance that has me unsure. He works with Darth Maul and his brother/apprentice Savage Opress to basically create terrorist attacks for the Death Watch to stop, making them heroes to Mandalore and allowing Vizsla to take over. Naturally, he betrays Maul, who returns and challenges him to a duel. Vizsla actually accepts and acknowledges Maul as the stronger before the latter beheads him following his defeat.

It might be that Vizsla only accepted a duel with Maul because he knew how strong Maul was and was surrounded by his men who wouldn't take a refusal well. However, when he's beate, he seems to stick to his own standards and accepts his impending fate, which implies he was sincere. Overall, Vizsla I'm not sure of. He's a horrible person, but I can't be clear if he genuinely believes Mandalore needs to return to its warrior past out of evil or as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. However, when he starts the massacre of villagers, he does so solely because they asked him to return the women he'd taken hostage. He gave the chief his daughter back, then stabbed her through the back in front of her dad

edited 5th Feb '13 12:45:47 PM by Lightysnake

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#8134: Feb 5th 2013 at 1:20:43 PM

I have to rewatch the cutscene in question, but I remember Bergan's so-called Pet the Dog moment as supporting someone who would agree with his doctrine of might through right (i.e. it was purely politically motivated). Also, the "dog" that he "pet" ended up being the Final Boss. I'd swap in the rewrite from Complete Monster (though that's just tooting my own horn, as I did rewrite it).

I think part of the reason that Bergan's murder of the Pope equivalent in the game is cited because other games in the Ivalice Alliance point to that as the downfall of the Nu Mou race - essentially, the sequels point to that moment as the domino that resulted in the extinction of the Nu Mou (plus the well-known-at-the-time crime of basically destroying an entire religious institution, which is what he was trying for).

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#8135: Feb 5th 2013 at 2:53:46 PM

...so uh...nothing about deleting the Toriko Bishokukai example and making a new write up for Tommyrod guys?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#8136: Feb 5th 2013 at 2:57:43 PM

So, I've been obsessed with Cold Case recently, so let's see who we should keep and who we should cut there...

  • John Smith: Keep, easily has the most messed-up MO in the series.
  • Jim Larkin: Keep, utterly brutal and utterly gross.
  • George Marks: Burn with extreme prejudice; apparently whoever added him missed the entire episode dedicated to his Freudian Excuse.
  • Roger Mulvany: Keep, we see this dude chuck his four-year-old daughter off a bridge to spite his wife.
  • Mike Delaney: I'm loath to cut here, as he's actually acknowledged as a CM in-universe, but everything's offscreen, so cut.
  • Charlotte Bayes: Cut, not nearly as bad as other domestic abusers on the show.
  • Lauen Williams: Cut, mentally ill.
  • Johanna Kimball: Cut, doesn't do anything herself and is painted as a pathetic coward by the narrative.
  • Moe Kitchener: Cut, just an accomplice; he's smug and sexist but doesn't really stand out in any other regard.
  • Wayne Nelson: I don't think we actually see the assault on his daughter, so I'm leaning to cut.
  • Daniel Patterson: Keep, this guy tried to break his wife in every way possible just so he could steal her poetry.
  • Josh Freely: Leaning to keep, as he's utterly merciless and what he lacks in body count he makes up for in pure slime.
  • Jane: Watched the episode again more recently, and she and the boyfriend are portrayed as equally culpable and equally evil; cut.
  • Becca Abrams: Leaning to keep; we don't see the rape, but we do get a Rape Discretion Shot, and sh'es awful to everyone she meets besides.

All of them need rewrites, too.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8137: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:04:31 PM

Is that show on DVD? I'll trust your judgment on these, Hamburger Time

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#8138: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:05:31 PM

[up] Nope; it uses so much Awesome Music that the distribution fees would be off the charts. Truly a double-edged sword.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8139: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:20:29 PM

Has the network made it publicly available?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#8140: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:26:07 PM

[up] Not that I'm aware of. ION marathons it every Friday, though, which is how I watch it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8141: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:27:11 PM

Noted! I'll watch for that, thanks!

Though if Jane's boyfriend is as bad as she is, wouldn't they both count for that episode?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#8142: Feb 5th 2013 at 3:28:50 PM

[up] I think they're pretty smalltime, though. She's a Manipulative Bitch and he doesn't care at all what he did, but they're hardly out of the ordinary for the show. The boyfriend, Bennett, is weaker-willed but, in my opinion, not particularly less evil.

edited 5th Feb '13 6:06:56 PM by HamburgerTime

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#8143: Feb 5th 2013 at 5:04:39 PM

@Footsteps You're thinking of the first nanny. I think the entry is referring to Mrs. Baylock, the replacement nanny, who's really a demon from hell sent to watch over Damian.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#8144: Feb 5th 2013 at 7:23:30 PM

Also Cid from Type-0 is a definite cut as he is listed as a Well Intentioned Extremist in the Character pages. His biggest atrocity is no worse than Vayne from Final Fantasy 12, which is again, pretty standard villainy. Easy cut. I just deleted his entry since there were no objections.

Other than that, the Fabula Nova Chrysalis Final Fantasy series pages look good. I think we might be done with Final Fantasy for awhile.

edited 5th Feb '13 7:27:44 PM by Klavice

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8145: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:13:34 AM

If anyone objects I'll un-cut Cheng from Twnety Four, but if not I'll keep him cut.

EDITS: Having only seen the movie and not read the comics of Sin City, I agree that the 3 Roarks and Kevin are Monsters, but Ava Lord? Her write-up:

Ava Lord from A Dame to Kill for manipulates Dwight into shooting her husband only to shoot him herself as part of a scheme to become the richest woman in Sin City. It is later revealed she has done this to many men in the past, using her body to get what she wants.

Doesn't seem TERRIBLY heinous, at least not compared to the Roarks. Thoughts?

Also, The Colonel is on the YMMV page, but not in the CM page, so I just copied-and-pasted the description from YMMV.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:25:23 AM by ACW

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#8146: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:22:08 AM

Where was Cheng discussed?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8147: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:24:53 AM

[up]I didn't think he counted, someone else agreed, nobody said anything so I proceeded.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#8148: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:32:50 AM

You said "Un-Cut", which to me means you wanted to add them. And that needs discussion.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8149: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:37:00 AM

Oh no, I cut him. and I'll listen to why I should uncut him, but I don't think he counts.

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#8150: Feb 6th 2013 at 8:32:05 AM

Spoiler your Clone Wars entries, please. We come here to tidy up stuff, not spoil stories. Darth Maul alone is a major spoiler, not to mention the death of the character you were debating.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.

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