During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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No need to change your vote if it's how you really feel.
to Kamoshida.
I've gotta agree with Ravok on Hux, his Freudian Excuse is pretty legitimate. It's hard to see how he could have turned out differently with an upbringing like that.
edited 18th Apr '17 6:51:57 PM by TommyFresh
to Deathstroke, Jerimiah Stone, and Gallius Rax.
Okay, Bad news, not exactly but close enough to good news.
Having rewatched every single episode of Grimm that features an approved candidate, I can honestly say I’ve still manage to find no good quotes. I also need to make a slight rewrite to Oleg Stark’s write up.
But going onto the not exactly good news, having rewatched a lot of the episodes I think I've found yet another candidate. Yeah I know I said this show was tapped (Season Six still pending) but that was before I remembered this guy. He was so early in the show, it was kind of easy to forget about him.
Now I’m not one hundred percent confident on this guy, but I figure it’s worth bringing them up. So here is Billy Capra from Season 1’s “Lonelyhearts”.
Who Is he:
Billy is the owner and manager of the Bramble Haus bed and breakfast, and is seemingly just the somewhat wet but charming host; however secretly Billy is in fact a very dangerous Ziegevolk (basically a Satyr like creature).
Now Ziegevolk naturally have the ability to produce powerful pheromones which make themselves come across as more attractive, charming and likable to others, especially towards the opposite sex. They are likewise known for having a lot of affairs and meaningless sex, inverse Casanova, Frank Sinatra and John F Kennedy were all Zeigevolk.
Billy however is a very rare type of Zeigevolk, known as a “herder,” as an opposed to a “breeder”, one who regularly eats a special type of toad which vastly increases their pheromones potencies, effectively giving them a form of mind control.
And Billy happily misuses these enhanced abilities to satisfy his lusts.
What does he do:
Already responsible for raping seventeen women (and impregnating fourteen) all over the country, around a year before the episode starts Billy arrived in Portland and sets up shop. His MO is to find women who are on their own and have few contacts in the city, using the nearby Blue Moon bar to get talking to them. Then he uses his pheromones to lure them to his bed and breakfast. Once there he kidnaps them, locking them in cages in his basement and pumping the room full of gas to keep them docile until he wants them.
Meaning that whenever he does want them (which is quite regular, as I've said Zeigevolk are lustful creatures) he simply turns off the gas, and uses his pheromones to force them into sleeping with him. Having already kidnapped and imprisoned three women (for several months by this point), Billy sets his sights upon Faith Collins and tries to kidnap her to. Faith however manages to escape, but still affected by the gas (which is not just a sedative, but also causes horrific nightmare like hallucinations) she ends up being hit by a car.
Catching up with her, Billy distracts the panicking driver to go call an ambulance, then after using his powers to stop Faith resisting or screaming for help, suffocates the poor women. Later while tracking Faith’s movements, Nick and Hank arrive at the Bramble Haus, while Billy does a good job of misleading them Nick discovers he’s a Zeigevolk and checking the missing person’s reports in the area, realises what Billy is up to.
A few nights later they track Billy trying to ensnare another woman, Lisa. While Nick keeps him under observation Hank meanwhile investigated the Bed and breakfast, managing to discover Billy imprisoned victims. However due to not knowing about the gas, he succumbs to it.
Already under his spell Billy almost manages to trap Lisa, Nick however intervenes and tries to get her to leave. He managed to find Hank in the basement, but Billy locked them both in and then turned the Gas up as far as it would go (it’s not clear if he was trying to suffocate them, or just hoped no one would find them till he was long gone). Then realising the gig was up, grabbed all his money and tried to abandon Portland.
However as Lisa was still affected she was still outside. Billy forced her to go with him, planning to make her his next victim. However while stopping for a break on his escape, Nick and Hank managed to catch up with him. Billy temporarily managed to evade them but in a moment of karma ended up running in front of a car, and being seriously injured.
Arrested for one murder and numerous accounts of rape and kidnapping, Billy however was last seen infecting the paramedic treating his wounds with his pheromones.
Freudian Excuse or any redeeming Traits:
None. Billy ensures he comes across as charming and helpful, in a trying to hard sort of way, but it’s entirely act.
He initially seems to care about the toads, and is shocked when Hank accidentally crushes one. But this immediately subverted by him eating the crushed toad, with him only caring about them cause they are the source of his enhanced powers.
Now Ziegevolk on a whole are renowned for being a lustful race, but overall the majority of them are harmless. Headers like Billy are very rare. Likewise being a herder isn’t an excuse. Herders aren't subspecies or anything, it is merely a term given to those Ziegevolk who choose to eat toads and enhance their pheromone powers (for obvious reasons). The majority of them don’t, for the very simple reason they’re not rapists.
Likewise the fact that Billy was willing to murder to keep his secrets secret pushes him beyond even other herders, as while Ziegevolk are claimed to be the inspiration for bluebeard, they are renowned for never being violent, and are overall quite meek and passive. To the point that Monroe honestly couldn’t believe that one of them did actually kill somebody.
Heinous Standard:
Grimm has a very high standard, with it already having seven monsters. However rape is overall a rare crime (in the shows six seasons, there has been overall only around three or so cases involving it, including this one), with Billy being this shows only Serial Rapist.
Mind control is also pretty rare in this show, and off all the examples Billy’s the weakest. While he does possess the power to force people to what he wants, it’s less do as a I say, as will do if I say it in conversation. His abilities likewise only last for a certain amount of time, mostly only work on women, and are entirely dependent on him constantly eating toads.
We actually do meet another Zeigevolk herder, whose abilities are far more powerful than Billy’s (as his can effect just about anyone, and go as far as creating false memories), yet he proves to not be remotely as dangerous as Billy.
As such Billy is by far the shows worst rapist, and the worst Zeigevolk.
Off Screen Villainy:
Now the seventeen women he raped across the country in the past are off screen, we see the police files about their cases, but that’s it unless you count us seeing his MO in action.
Conclusion:
Now again I’m not one hundred percent sure, but Billy is this shows only Serial Rapist, and even as Serial rapists go kidnapping, imprisoning in cages, heavily drugging and continually raping over and over again for a period of months, does come across as especially horrible. He does also break with his entire species tradition of not killing, as if it was the most casual thing in the world.
So what do you think?
Also if he is approved, I’ll include my rewrite for Oleg with his write up.
edited 18th Apr '17 7:02:48 PM by MGD107
Billy hey maybe he has some good quotes for Grimm
So MGD 107 how far are you on season 6 for Grimm. Are you also planning to discuss season 4 for Sleepy Hollow since you reserved discussions for that show
edited 18th Apr '17 8:19:46 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffAlright, after walking off and calming down, I'm really sorry about how I handled the reactions to me voting down Kamoshida. I'm not... really having a good time on my end, but that doesn't excuse me for acting immature and passive aggressive.
That being said, my opinion is still that of a "no". Definitely a minority opinion for sure, but he just doesn't feel "monstrous" enough for me. Aside from raping and driving a girl to suicide, he just feels like a particularly hateable douchebag. I guess that's the trappings of a YMMV trope: one man's monster is another man's douchebag who crossed a line.
edited 18th Apr '17 8:49:47 PM by FriedWarthog
Well, it's my turn now. First off,
Kamoshida. Let us proceed first with why the interim villains do not count. Spoilers, obviously.
Ichiryusai Madarame - We came really, really close to proposing him, actually, since his Shadow gloats about a murder he committed in the past. It's just that his former pupil and party member Yusuke, in his final Confidant scene, learns that Madarame tried to make him feel better whenever he got sick. The protagonist and the game take the angle that, yes, Madarame, vain monster as he is, did care about Yusuke, and not that this was a possessive feeling. So, Madarame comes really close, but no, he does not count.
Junya Kaneshiro - Very standard Filler Villain and mafia boss. Doesn't stand out compared to Kamoshida or Madarame even with more resources, and most of his crimes are implied.
Medjed - Nameless entity.
MASSIVE SPOILERS FROM HERE ON OUT.
Kunikazu Okumura - While he actually is a pretty bad guy and has multiple murders under him, he has an implied Freudian Excuse and goes out tragically.
Sae Niijima - Just a bit twisted, but not pure evil.
Goro Akechi - Horrific backstory that would make anyone twisted, plus Redemption Equals Death.
Now...here we go.
Remember in the intro HT gave to the game how the Protagonist tried to stop an abuse and had his life ruined as a result?
Turns out the abuser is the Big Bad profiting off of every other villain besides Kamoshida
Ladies and gentlemen, Masayoshi Shido.
Who is Masayoshi Shido? What has he done
Masayoshi Shido was once a simple politician. About seventeen or eighteen years before the game started, he illegitimately fathered a child. This will become important later.
A few years before the game started, he got involved with the research of a woman named Wakaba Isshiki, who was doing research on what would be known to important parties to the game as the Metaverse and Shadows. Shido was later approached by a young Goro Akechi, who claimed he had a special power and offered his services to help Shido rise in political power by killing his enemies. Shido, knowing of Wakaba's research, accepted Goro's offer and had him kill Wakaba by giving her a mental shutdown (killing her Shadow), which led her to jump in front of a car. Shido later had a will officially staging it as a suicide forged, blaming Wakaba's illegitimate daughter Futaba for her death. This sent her into a depression and made her a shut-in.
Shido then accepted offers to use Goro's powers to kill anyone against those who would be able to support his rise in power. He also profited off the actions of Madarame and Kaneshiro, though the former was unaware. He also set numerous Moles in place, including the Principal of Shujin Academy and the Special Investigations Unit Director.
Later, he assaulted a woman while drunk and was stopped by the Protagonist. Shido had the woman and police give testimony that the Protagonist assaulted him, bragging to both the Protagonist and woman that the police were "his bitches." This led to the Protagonist going to Shujin and nearly having his life definitively ruined by Kamoshida.
Shido's proper introduction in the story is a simple Jerkass move: Stealing the Protagonist and Ryuji's elevator. Not too heinous, but a very menacing first impression.
After Kaneshiro falls, Shido authorizes an IT Company to make a fake member of the hacking group Medjed to taunt the Phantom Thieves and threaten them. Through the interference and saving of Wakaba's daughter Futaba, this plan is stopped, leading to the Thieves rising in popularity worldwide.
Meanwhile, suspecting that the Thieves may be Shujin students, Shido orders the Principal to investigate. When this fails and Shujin gets investigated for the Kamoshida scandal, Shido has Goro kill the Principal and stage it as a suicide.
Shido's next action is to hack the Phan-Site created by Yuuki Mishima so Kunikazu Okumura will be the Thieves' next target. After they take him down, we see a mysterious figure (Goro) kill his Shadow. Upon Okumura's confession on live television, he has a mental shutdown and dies. This causes the Thieves' popularity to decrease dramatically as they are pinned for his death. Meanwhile, Shido, who has recently splintered off from the Liberal Co-Prosperity Party to form the United Future Party, rises in popularity.
Goro next attempts to act as a Mole in the Phantom Thieves in order to get them arrested and killed for Shido's approval. They easily see through him, and stage a whole plan which results in Goro killing a cognitive version of the Protagonist. After this, Goro and Shido talk on the phone and brag about their accomplishments. As this goes on, it's revealed that Shido had Goro kill the SIU Director, Shido's other main Mole and biggest confidant, just because he knows too much. As this happens, the Protagonist makes a clean getaway, but is forced to go into hiding. It's also revealed that the Thieves bugged Goro, and from this, they find out that Shido's the mastermind.
Shido's actions had all been calculated - the various catastrophes he caused, such as the train accident in the beginning of the game, was all so people would lose faith in the government. This led to its dissolution, and ordered new elections with Shido as the clear frontrunner. He manipulated the Thieves' rise and fall in popularity just so the fall would be so much worse for them - all so he wouldn't be discovered. The deadline for Shido's Palace is the day of the ballot count.
The Thieves eventually invade Shido's Palace, where they learn that everyone from Madarame onward had been wittingly or unwittingly helping Shido. The train "accident" from the beginning of the game? All it was for was to please an ex-noble who wanted two people on that train dead. This led to numerous people hospitalized for the entire game. Okumura was another patron of Shido, who had Goro kill people so he could rise in power, too, yet Shido also had Okumura killed to take down the Thieves.
Goro eventually confronts the Thieves, where he reveals that he also hates Shido and is planning on betraying him. Remember how Shido had an illegitimate child? It's Goro, and Goro's furious that Shido abandoned his mother and let her kill herself. After his defeat, it's revealed that Shido was also planning on betraying Goro after becoming Prime Minister and only sees him as expendable. What makes this worse is that it's later revealed that Shido suspected Goro's true identity and motives, but didn't care and was going to kill him anyway.
When Shadow Shido is finally confronted, he embodies Pride as Samael. It's at this point where he mentions killing Goro, and the people's support in him is represented in his first form. When that falls, he curses his constituency for being weak. Upon his final defeat, the real Shido, sensing that his heart was stolen, hangs onto evil for just enough time to put himself in suspended animation in order to kill the Thieves in his Palace. This ultimately fails, and Shido confesses like Kamoshida upon waking up and becoming Prime Minister.
Heinous Standard?
For human villains in the franchise, Shido is definitely among the most heinous. He's ordered countless people killed with a lot of collateral damage (as shown by the train incident), and personally ruined the Protagonist's life. He doesn't give a damn about any of his conspirators, either, having Goro kill the Principal and SIU Director before revealing he wants Goro dead, too, with his Shadow pulling it off. Shido remains bitter and defiant to the end, risking death so his heart won't get stolen.
He talks about building Japan up to its former glory, but he doesn't care about anyone else in the country - he honestly believes he's God's Chosen One and, as a result, can push anyone around, abusing the embodiment of his constituents' desires. He's also not above sexual assault, as shown in the game's backstory. Shido may have to compete with all the other human villains, but he's the only one other than Kamoshida that really stands out without any sort of goodness. Furthermore, his and his subordinates' actions ultimately prompt the Greater-Scope Villain Yaldabaoth to declare humanity is hopeless and decide to wipe them out, though Yaldabaoth is far too ambiguous to count.
Finally, while treachery is considered standard villainy in most cases, Shido betrays so many people that it easily surpasses standard villainy. When his Shadow is confronted about what he did to the Protagonist, he gloats that he's crushed far too many people to remember someone as insignificant as a teenager.
Redeeming Factors?
Nope. Nada. Zilch. Shido shows no remorse towards anything he's done until he wakes up from suspended animation, by which point his Treasure is gone. He cares for no one, not even his own son outside of his role as an obedient puppet who can be discarded whenever. Shido's sole goal is to become Prime Minister, and everything bad post-Kamoshida is related to him in some way.
Conclusion?
Shido is a mass-murderer, sexual offender, and abuser in the guise of a charismatic politician. Embodying the sin of Pride, Shido will do anything he can to rise in power and kill anyone who gets in his way. He easily stands out compared to every other villain in the game, and ultimately overshadows even Yaldabaoth. Solid
.
ANM: Please add Jafar's rewrite to the Drafts; I'll play with it,
Billy.
Huh, I was SURE the second candidate would've been Yaldabaoth.
to both Persona 5 baddies. Yeesh, ANYONE would be screwed up having Shido as a father,
Since BIONICLE's getting its own page, how's this for a new quote for Other Media? Mick Taylor from Wolf Creek 2
edited 19th Apr '17 1:25:35 AM by ACW
Billy. Grimm is a darker show than I would have thought.
I have a question about Shin Megami Tensei's heinous standard.
Now, the series is notorious for having one of the most complicated multiple timelines/multiverses ever.
My question is: Should Pursonar's heinous standard be effected by the rest of the franchise/multiverse, since it has its timeline has its own little niche of "things aren't nearly as horrible as they could be"?
I would argue Digital Devil Saga shouldn't be included, since that's an actual completely different universe that has nothing to do with YHWH or Lucifer or what have you other than a few Easter Egg cameos.
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I'd say no. Persona's themes (and to a lesser extent, those of the other spinoffs) are too different, there haven't anything in the sub-franchise that connects to the Megaten universe besides the depictions of mythological figures (and even that depends on if they are tied to a specific character or not. [Cerberus and Isis looked different in 3 then they were in 5, because in the former, they were Yukari's and Koromaru's respective personae] or if they belonged to 2 different characters [in 2, Prometheus was Baotou's persona and was very humanoid, in 5, Prometheus is Futaba's persona and looked more like Ameno-Sagiri mixed with Emil) In any case, I don't think Mega Ten's heinous standard should apply to persona until we have evidence that the two franchises are connected to each other.
On a side note, persona 5 is the closest to Megaten in atmosphere (God Is Evil, Tokyo setting, etc) but its own themes are still different form their parent series (not to mention that Yaldaboth looks very different from the Demiurge's depiction in the parent games, or from YHVH himself for that matter)
edited 19th Apr '17 3:33:20 AM by MorningStar1337
to Masayoshi Shido.
Okay that's six
zero
to Billy. I'll give it a few more hours just in case, but it looks like I'm doing another write up.
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I'll be honest I didn't think it was this dark, and I've been watching it for the last six years. Really its interesting mix, on the one hand their are a lot of horrible people and its a show that seems to love looking for more cruel, painful and disgusting ways for people to die. On the other hand overall the good guys win the majority of the time, and their is plenty of more uplifting moments and humour to stop it becoming hard to watch.
G-Editor, I'm near the end of Season Six now, only got two or three episodes left before its over. Sorry its taking so long. And yes I am planning to discuss Season 4 of Sleepy Hollow, I've had my eye on a pretty good candidate for a while (or maybe even to), I just need to see its conclusion and ensure they don't get any last minute mitigating circumstances.
edited 19th Apr '17 3:34:28 AM by MGD107
