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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#81426: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:20:20 PM

@ Ravok: It's your opinion that Hux has been disqualified, but I have to ask, didn't Tarkin have a similar bringing up? I ask because I found these on the novels trope page:

Evil Mentor: Jova Tarkin serves as one to any Tarkin who goes to the Carrion Plateau, putting them through Training from Hell while ingraining the Tarkin's unique views on life and instilling order.

A Real Man Is a Killer: This is one of the Tarkins' many personal mottos, though not in so many words. When Tarkin makes a vest as a child, Uncle Jova comments that it'll look good with blood on it, and not long afterward forces the boy to disembowel an animal they kill on a hunt.

Rite of Passage: Tarkin underwent one as a boy of eleven. Every dry season for five years, he would accompany his grand-uncle Jova Tarkin and other family members to the dreaded Carrion Plateau, where he was forced to live off the land or die. It was designed to both impart mercilessness and survival skills, as well as teach how much modern technology should be valued, by removing it and forcing the boy to live off of the land, making him appreciate it more when his ordeal was over. This is why, as an adult, Tarkin is so technology-obsessed.

Used to Be a Sweet Kid: Our first glimpse of a young Tarkin has him say he would serve food to the Tarkins' non-human servant. His parents swiftly quash that notion and begin instilling the "virtues" of the Tarkin family into him.

Now, I respect your opinion, but I have to ask, how is it that Tarkin counts despite his past but not Hux (in your opinion)? I am not sure if you read that novel. I believe Lightysnake covered it. I would like to hear from the two of you what gave Hux's Freudian Excuse more weight. After all, Hux is an expy of Tarkin, and their pasts sound similar.

jjj
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#81427: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:20:53 PM

[up][up]Freudian Excuse, specifically being abused and brainwashed to be an Empire fanatic from early childhood.

EDIT: [nja] Also, I wouldn't call Hux an expy of Tarkin. They have similar roles in the narrative, but totally different personalities; Tarkin is an older, calculatedly ruthless schemer, while Hux is a young, almost rabid fanatic.

edited 18th Apr '17 4:22:21 PM by MasterGhandalf

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81428: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:21:32 PM

[tup] to Rax

edited 18th Apr '17 4:22:21 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#81429: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:32:22 PM

The Tarkin novel made it pretty clear that he embraced his family's nutty philosophy without qualms from the very first expedition.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#81430: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:47:32 PM

[up] Ah! So, while they both started off as nice kids and were molded by their families, Tarkin enjoyed his first hunt and decided that he wanted more, while Hux did not enjoy his first taste of the family business at all, but had it continually forced onto him throughout his life until he broke. So with Tarkin, it was like a killer getting his first murder in and developing a bloodlust, while with Hux, it was flat out being subjected to depravities over the years to the point of brainwashing. That it?

jjj
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#81431: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:47:56 PM

[tup] Fleet Admiral Gallius Rax.

Awrighty, it's been two weeks and so it's time for the moment you've all been waiting for: Persona 5, Tropers and Tropettes! These effortposts will be a co-production with Finalsurvivor1, who has actually already beaten the game and will be supplying the Big Bad's effortpost, but for now, I've got the stage, so here goes candidate #1!

Oh, and SPOILERS BELOW, especially in FS1's upcoming post!

What's the work?

Persona 5 is the latest installment, eight years in the making, in the long-running Persona franchise, itself a spinoff of the even older Shin Megami Tensei franchise. While Persona games do include the mythological figures that made the franchise famous, these games focus on the intricacies of the human mind and usually have smaller-scale conflicts (at least initially; they always escalate to world-threatening eventually). Persona 5 postulates the existence of the Metaverse, a different world inside the human mind, where all our innermost thoughts, hopes, dreams and depravities are made physically manifest. A person with a very distorted view of reality, usually but not always an extremely evil person, can manifest their Metaverse as a sort of pocket dimension referred to as a Palace, where the person's inner self, the Shadow, rules as an absolute dictator.

Our hero is a sixteen-year-old high school student from Tokyo (in the grand Megaten tradition, his name is fully customizable and for simplicity's sake he will henceforth be "The Protagonist"), who while walking come one night happened upon a drunkard attempting to unwillingly force a woman into his car. The Protagonist pulls the man off the woman, and the former trips and cuts his head. Unfortunately, the man turns out to be a prominent politician and businessman with the cops in his pocket, and the Protagonist is sued, convicted of assault, sentenced to probation, dumped off on a family friend because his parents didn't want to deal with it, and enrolled in the ultra-strict Shujin Academy in Tokyo. There, he meets fellow outcast Ryuji Sakamoto and quickly befriends him, Ryuji having committed some initially-unknown transgression that caused the track team to be shut down (we'll be coming back to this). The duo are mysteriously e-mailed a new app for their smartphones, and discover by accident that it allows them to enter the Metaverse at will. They, naturally, awaken as Persona-users, and with the aid of a strange catlike creature, Morgana, they encounter there, learn they can alter human cognition through the Metaverse - even cause evil people, the Palace-owners, to repent by raiding their Palaces and "stealing their hearts." And wouldn't you know it, a candidate for just this procedure quickly presents itself in the form of a man I've heard called perhaps one of the vilest Starter Villains in all fiction, Shujin's Coach Suguru Kamoshida.

Who is Suguru Kamoshida? What has he done?

Suguro Kamoshida is a gross douchebag. Favorite nicknames include "That asshole," "That piece of shit," and "What an abusive d-bag." With that out of the way, Kamoshida is the head PE Teacher and coach of the volleyball team at Shujin high. He's an Olympic-class volleyballer who took Japan to the gold in his younger days, and now, as a teacher, has taken Shujin to nationals multiple times. He's easily the most famous person on staff and parents clamor to have their kids taught by him.

Which would be great, except he's a vicious, predatory ephebophile.

Kamoshida loves the girls of Shujin a bit too much, y'see, and at the top of his sick list is one Ann Takamaki, a beautiful blonde quarter-American and total Iron Woobie equally the object of lust for her good looks and derision for her mixed heritage. Kamoshida likes her because she's... "exotic." He's also browbeaten an underperforming member of the boys' volleyball team, Yuuki Mishima, into being his reluctant gofer, including procuring girls for him.

The Protragonist first runs into Kamoshida when he's shown giving Ann a ride to school in his car; she seems to eagerly accept, but the Protagonist notes a look of utter despair in her eyes as the window closes. Following this, he and Ryuji receive the mysterious app and accidentally trigger it, finding their school has transformed into a medieval-style castle, whose master is a man who looks just like Kamoshida, but dressed as a king with glowing yellow eyes - if you're unfamiliar with Persona, this is his Shadow Self. The Shadow Kamoshida immediately orders the two boys killed for trespassing. They escape, of course, the protagonist awakening his Persona in the process, while also busting Morgana out of the castle dungeon; he teaches them some of the finer points of the Metaverse and helps them shift back to reality.

The trio go on several more excursions into the Metaverse to figure out what's going on, in the process discovering that the Shadow Kamoshida gets his jollies torturing simulacra of the boys' volleyball team, while ones of the girls' team throw themselves at him. The Protagonist and Ryuji decide to investigate to see if these actions reflect something happening in the real world as well. They interview several members of the boys' team, including Mishima, who are all covered in injuries, but, clearly in utter terror, refuse to tell them anything. After some more investigating that leaves them pretty certain Kamoshida really is abusing his students, Morgana informs them that if they want to, they can get Kamoshida to confess his crimes by stealing his "Treasure," an object in his Metaverse that embodies his distorted desires. The Protagonist and Ryuji are initially hesitant at the thought of messing with someone's mind like that, particularly once Morgana informs them that doing the procedure incorrectly can kill or lobotomize the person. The two decide to sleep on the question of whether or not they should do it.

And the next day, they get their answer when Shiho Suzui, star of the girls' volleyball team and Ann's best friend, throws herself off the roof of the school.

As the students gather to watch Shiho being taken to the hospital, Ryuji spots Yuuki attempting to flee. They corner him, and at this point the pieces start coming together: Kamoshida had been extorting sexual favors from Ann in exchange for Shiho's prominent position on the volleyball team (Shiho has very low self-esteem and feels volleyball's the only thing she's good at), but when Ann finally drew the line at actual intercourse, Kamoshida vented his frustrations by calling Shiho to his office... and raping her (a totally unique crime in the entire franchise, by the way, unless there was something in one of the really early spinoffs that never left Japan as I know nothing about those). Yuuki furthermore reveals that Kamoshida also frequently calls underperforming students into his office for "private coaching sessions" that are really just him beating the tar out of them, explaining the male volleyballers' injuries. Oh, and the school principal and even some of the parents know about this, considering it a worthwhile tradeoff for the kids to be taught by someone so famous.

The three boys confront Kamoshida in his office, where he freely admits to his crimes but says it doesn't matter - they're the only ones in the office, so if they go to the authorities all they'll have is the word of three "weird kids" against one respected teacher. He then gleefully types up a false report of the three assaulting him, which he plans on submitting at the next school board meeting along with a request for their expulsion. This, incidentally, sets a deadline on when you can complete his dungeon, which all the villains have. By the way, it turns out he was also behind the track team's suspension - jealous that they were outperforming the volleyball team, he told the entire school that Ryuji has an abusive father, goaded Ryuji into punching him over this, and use that as a justification for shutting down the team. Furthermore and apparently just to be a dick, he forced Yuuki to leak the Protagonist's criminal record, rendering him a social pariah from day one.

The Persona-using trio race to steal Kamoshida's treasure in time, and Ann gets pulled in as well after receiving the app herself, leading to an awesome scene where she awakens her Persona and kills a simulacrum of herself with a submissive bimbo personality in Kamoshida's mind. The now-quartet journey to the Palace throne room, where they confront the Shadow Kamoshida, who transforms into Asmodeus, archdevil of Lust. The four hero manage to defeat Asmodeus and steal Kamoshida's treasure (a simulacrum of his gold medal), and the Shadow fades away as the Palace collapses.

A few days later, back in reality, Kamoshida unexpectedly calls an emergency assembly. He gets on the school stage and confesses all his crimes, his heart having been successfully stolen. He grovels for forgiveness from his victims... and gets none. Yup, in an absolutely genius bit of writing, even the quote-unquote redeemed Kamoshida gets No Sympathy from the narrative. He states his intention to "atone" for his crimes by committing suicide, and Ann proves she's awesome yet again by coming out as the #1 victim in front of the school, and calling Kamoshida's statement out for what it is - one last attempt to escape actual punishment. His last avenue of escape cornered off, Kamoshida recuses himself to police custody. Have fun in prison, asshole.

Heinous standard?

In terms of this game's villains, and Megaten villains in general, Kamoshida's an utter small fry. He's a former big name turned gym teacher (we all remember what the immortal Dewey Finn said about gym teachers, right?) pining away for his glory days and satiating his Wrath and Lust on his unfortunate students. He's "just" a gym teacher, but he's as bad as a gym teacher can be, and brings to the table the first successful rape in the franchise (that I'm aware of) on top of that.

Other mitigating factors?

Two very, very minor things bear mentioning here, but I don't expect them to cause much trouble. He has no redeeming moments or Freudian Excuse and is treated with absolutely no sympathy even after having his heart stolen, but interestingly enough, the Shadow Kamoshida gets something of an Alas, Poor Villain death. Obviously the Shadow can't count as it has no agency, and Morgana states it was the result of the Treasure being stolen anyway, but the Shadow's more sympathetic than the man if that interests you at all.

Second and unfortunately, despite having one of the most tasteful portrayals of a sexual abuse scenario I've ever seen, there are still a few shonen anime-style gag scenes of sexual harassment (both male-on-female and male-on-male) played for laughs later on. These scenes have no bearing on anything, the characters involved show no lingering ill effects unlike Kamoshida's victims, and they're usually never mentioned again. I don't think they muck with Kamoshida's heinousness at all, but just for posterity's sake I thought I'm mention them.

Conclusion

With dozens of victims both physically and sexually abused, a unique crime, rape, for not just his game but his entire franchise, numerous acts of pettier Jerkassdry as well, nothing but extremely minor possible objections, and being still treated as a gigantic piece of slime even after his """"""""""repentance""""""""""... ladies and gentlemen, Persona 5 Complete Monster #1! [tup]

edited 18th Apr '17 4:49:40 PM by HamburgerTime

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#81432: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:13:47 PM

Hmm...I'll give a tentative [tup] to Kamoshida (Though is rape really that unique? Didn't Adachi from Persona 4 try to do the same thing to that tv announcer? It wasn't successful but still)

edited 18th Apr '17 5:14:11 PM by Awesomekid42

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#81433: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:15:37 PM

Adachi did try, yes, but accidentally knocked her into the TV and decided he liked killing better.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#81434: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:25:21 PM

Yeah, I'm avoiding this Puhsoner stuff.

Hope everyone enjoys themselves!

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#81435: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:29:07 PM

[tup] Kamoshida. This is D.C. Douglas' third CM.

Having never played the game, I had a feeling this dude would count since Douglas loved talking about how evil Kamoshida was on Twitter with his fans.

It's Spooky Month!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81436: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:35:34 PM

Yeah, Kamoshida reminds me of the coach from the Darker than Black manga as an otherwise normal guy in a crazy superpowered world who backflips over the line to count. Easy yes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81437: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:55:27 PM

Wait, Adachi as another rapist? What...he not heinous enough?

Who was Douglas's other CM after Wesker?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#81438: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:56:37 PM

I'd like to point out that there's one very important difference between Adachi and Kamoshida - Kamoshida isn't aware of the supernatural elements of the setting, while Adachi is, which massively jacks up his resources.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#81439: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:57:58 PM

edited 18th Apr '17 6:24:55 PM by FriedWarthog

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#81440: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:01:42 PM

I'll give my [tup] for Kamoshida

edited 18th Apr '17 6:02:01 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81441: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:02:00 PM

I don't get that vote. He's a serial abuser and serial rapist who's sexually assaulted a number of teenage girls and drove one to attempt suicide.

And ACW, if you would check Adachi, he has redeeming qualities. He was an attempted rapist, but he still valued Dojima as a friend at the very end.

edited 18th Apr '17 6:02:30 PM by Lightysnake

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#81442: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:05:21 PM

@ACW Alexei Dinoia was Douglas' other CM.

It's Spooky Month!
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#81443: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:12:08 PM

edited 18th Apr '17 6:24:34 PM by FriedWarthog

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#81444: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:15:58 PM

[up]Was his molesting a kid not memorable, or did you file that under the "drove a kid to suicide" bit?

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#81445: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:16:09 PM

[tup]Kamoshida. I knew he'd be examined the second I defeated his boss. Since I beat the game, I'm just as aware of the second candidate for this trope, and await said effortpost.

Yeah, Kamoshida reminds me of the coach from the Darker than Black manga as an otherwise normal guy in a crazy superpowered world who backflips over the line to count. Easy yes.

That's exactly what he felt like to me the more the game went on.

edited 18th Apr '17 6:17:14 PM by VeryMelon

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#81446: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:21:18 PM

On my two cents on Hux, I think now he has potential to be a CM in future. However as he's only been in one movie, he could very easily become more insecure and humanized, like if Tarkin had Hidden Depths about his own immorality. Though that could obviously change.

On Jojo, I've noted that no-one's suggested any character who appears after Part 5 counts. Could this have to do with the Big Bad of 6 and 7 having Affably Evil and/or Utopia Justifies the Means qualities, overall enforcing a Rousseau Was Right opinion? I know Dio appears in 6, but that's post-mortem and it's the only real time his CM status was in doubt

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81447: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:22:51 PM

I've done a revised writeup for OUAT!Jafar. The bolded part is the part that's to be put on the Once Upon a Time YMMV page, while the entry on the Spin-Off show's page can be left as is:

  • Once Upona Timein Wonderland: In this Spin-Off, Jafar is a true Bastard Bastard and Evil Sorcerer extraordinaire whose plan is to enslave three genies and use their combined magical powers to wish for the rules of magic to be changed so that he may become the all-powerful ruler of Wonderland. Cruel, utterly ruthless, devoid of empathy, and detached from humanity, not an episode goes by in which he does not threaten, manipulate, torture, murder, or all at once in order to get what he wants. Jafar's most noteworthy atrocities were changing the woman who loved him and taught him sorcery into his serpent staff, threatening to murder Alice's father in order to make her surrender her two remaining magic wishes, and not only murdering a young woman in cold blood just to get a reaction out of her lover, but later reviving her and making her fall in love with him right in front of said lover, who is powerless to stop it. The sixth season of the main series reveals that Jafar had for a time made himself royal vizier of his home kingdom of Agrabah and, in addition to torturing and killing more people with his dark magic for his amusement, had deceived Princess Jasmine into giving him the royal family's enchanted ring, threatening to destroy Agrabah if she didn't give it to him as a marriage offering. With the ring in his possession, Jafar revealed that wanting Jasmine to wed him was a ruse and he was now able to magically disintegrate all of Agrabah, transforming the entire physical kingdom into a ghostly form of itself that was sealed in limbo within the royal ring along with the souls of all of it's inhabitants for many years afterwards. He did this purely out of spite for his home and it's people, and to make both Aladdin and Jasmine suffer from the despair of their failure to protect the kingdom from him. Worst of all is that we're led to believe that he ultimately just wants love from his abusive father and wishes to change the rules of magic in order to force him to give him affection, but it's revealed that he really wanted to make his father love him so that the peace of mind and vengeance he'd get out of murdering him afterwards would be sweeter. In the end, all Jafar truly wanted was power to do whatever he pleased with.

edited 18th Apr '17 6:28:28 PM by ANewMan

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81448: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:25:16 PM

Is there any way to trim that?

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#81449: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:26:38 PM

edited 18th Apr '17 8:44:32 PM by FriedWarthog

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#81450: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:27:41 PM

[up][up] Not really. I think it's just long enough to fit on the Live Action CM page, and remember that part of it is for a YMMV page for a separate series.

edited 18th Apr '17 6:28:37 PM by ANewMan


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