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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#81276: Apr 17th 2017 at 4:12:10 AM

Ditto on expanding Jafar's entry.

Also, a man named Achmed turning into a piece of wood ? Should I or should I not make a reference ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81277: Apr 17th 2017 at 4:17:19 AM

Anyone from season 7 of Walking Dead count?

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#81278: Apr 17th 2017 at 5:18:37 AM

[up] Nope. Negan, although more depraved, sadistic and sarcastic than his comic counterpart, still has similar moral code, including no rape policy. His men are mostly violent and abrasive assholes with many qualifications for Hate Sink but lack proper heinousness.

edited 17th Apr '17 5:24:32 AM by Kookosbanaani

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81279: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:32:14 AM

Can you elaborate on The Predespair Kids? I assume it's related to Danganropa?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81280: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:42:46 AM

Here's the Noir rewrites:

  • Spider-Man Noir: Eyes Without a Face:
    • Otto Octavius, a.k.a. Dr. Octopus, stands in stark contrast to his occasionally-noble 616 counterpart. Born a cripple in South Africa, Otto grew up jealous of the healthy, able-bodied Africans that he grew up around, which developed into a violent hatred for the black race in general. Wishing to gain the approval of Heinrich Himmler and the Nazi party, Otto has innocent black people kidnapped off the streets and performs horrifying, inhumane experiments on them. These experiments result in his victims, such as Peter's friend Robbie Robertson, being reduced to drooling, mindless vegetables that are meant to be used for slave labor. And Otto isn't above casual murder, as shown by him brutally stabbing his ally Crime Master to death when he tried to have Otto's victims burnt to cover their tracks, viewing his actions as wasting his research.
    • In the power vacuum left behind in the wake of Norman Osborn's death, the enigmatic Crime Master handily takes his place as New York's most fearsome criminal. Far crueler and more brutal than Norman was, Crime Master is introduced by having his hulking lackey Sandman kill a mobster who insulted him by crushing his head like a grape. A violent psychopath of the highest order, Crime Master is quick to make an example of people who cross him, such as cutting out the tongue of a stool pigeon who snitched on him and dumping his body on the streets, filling a movie theater with the corpses of his rivals, and torturing his girlfriend Felicia Hardy with a shard of glass for affiliating with Spider-Man. Crime Master also assists the aforementioned Otto Octavius in his heinous experiments by supplying him with innocent black victims he kidnaps off the streets, and when the feds start to close in on them, he heartlessly tries to have them all burnt alive and refers to them as "livestock".

edited 17th Apr '17 6:44:00 AM by ACW

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#81281: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:15:40 AM

@Lighty Roger Rabbit, as you may recall, is rated PG. Also, even though neither movie has a CM, both Dick Tracy and The Rocketeer are also PG.

edited 17th Apr '17 7:16:00 AM by futuremoviewriter

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#81282: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:16:11 AM

OK, so that makes 4 or 5 votes for Tesla. If nothing changes, here is a writeup for him:

  • Albert Tesla, the overarching antagonist of the final three cases of Pacific Bay (season 2), was a scientist obsessed with transferring his mind into a supercomputer. As the Computer Interface, Tesla establishes Meteor Systems before transforming Pacific Bay from a barren wasteland into the prosperous city it is today. Displeased by the level of crime ravaging the city, Tesla decides to destroy it through mass bombing; those that subject themselves to his authority are to be digitialized into a virtual reality where he is the supreme ruler. To this end, he manipulates Frank and Karen Knight into stealing plutonium under the false pretense that doing so would allow them to reunite with their comatose daughter. When Frank gives Amy information on how to stop him, Tesla releases five murderers, one of which murders him. Tesla temporarily halts his destruction of Pacific Bay to engage Amy and the player in a sadistic game of cat and mouse. If they were to prove to him that justice still existed by finding Frank's killer, he would abandon his plans for a virtual world; if not, he would raze Pacific Bay to the ground. Even when the killer is found, Tesla doesn't live up to his side of the bargain, gleefully admitting that he was still going to decimate Pacific Bay regardless. Despite claiming to be well-intentioned in his goals, Tesla proves himself to be a hypocritical madman no better than the criminals he resents.

How's this?

edited 17th Apr '17 7:39:05 AM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81283: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:32:30 AM

[up] Looks good to me. Drafts please.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#81284: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:07:45 AM

I wasn't involved in the discussion, but I take it Jakande from Furious 7 doesn't count because he fails the heinous standard compared to Owen Shaw and isn't given as much screentime as Deckard Shaw?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#81286: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:48:41 AM

Ok so after some consideration, I have decided to see if one of my most popular Necromancers in video games fits the description. Enter Markal from the Heroes of Might and Magic franchise.

Who is Markal and what does he do?

Markal is the apprentice of Sandro and one of the main antagonists of Heroes of Might and Magic V. He is an evil old necromancer who seeks to regain control of the Griffin Empire, and gain revenge on Cyrus and the Wizards.

Markal first appears in the third campaign of the game as the tituluar Necromancer, when he talks to the dead Queen Fiona's skull informing her that her son Nicolai is dead. Markal decides to take advantage of Queen Isabel's grieving to raise Nicolai as a vampire. He makes his way to the city of Vigil avoiding the Silver City patrols. Upon reaching the city, he realizes that the Empire is in civil war, as the Queen is not of Griffin blood and they see her as illegitimate. Knowing that Isabel would have to grant him an audience, he defeats the rebel army, where he meets Isabel. Isabel is surprised to learn that Markal can bring Nicolai back, but is disgusted that Markal would offer to do so via necromancy, arguing that he would be burned at the stake. Nevertheless, Markal argues that Nicolai could end the civil war, and Isabel questions how Nicolai could be returned so easily. Markal informs Isabel that the artifacts are in possession of Archmage Cyrus, and Markal deduces that Isabel has a grudge against Cyrus. Isabel agrees to let Markal attack the wizards with a lot of suspicion.

Godric is infuriated that Isabel is dealing with Markal, Although Markal was a councillor to Godric's own sister, Godric banished Markal the day she died with Nicolai's approval. Nevertheless Godric agrees to help, but it is obviously a reluctant alliance. Markal restores Lorekeep, the old capital of the undead after slaughtering the wizards who block his path, and attacks Hikm to gain the Amulet of Necromancy. Isabel chooses to give it to Godric, though Markal argues it should be in his possession.

Markal then attacks the Silver Cities at large to gain the Cloak of Death's Shadow, the Staff of the Netherworld, and the Ring of the Unrepentant. He converts the Academy towns into Necropolises and converts all the citizens into undead, raising an army of 1000 skeletons and 20 bone dragons. When Archmage Cyrus flees into the realm of the Ring of the Unrepentant, Markal fumes, vowing to remove the finger on which the ring sits. Chasing Cyrus into the Ring's realm, he battles Cyrus and kills him, then takes the ring. Godric is angered that Markal is the one taking command, and when Isabel comes for the Amulet, Godric rebels, and Markal gleefully notes that he will be able to defeat and gain revenge on Godric. He proceeds to kidnap Freyda, Godric's daughter, knowing that Godric will come to him to protect his daughter. After killing the Angels Godric sends, he gloats and considers the possibility of turning Freyda into a wight to use against her father, but decides not to. After defeating Godric, Markal pushes for him to be killed, arguing he is stubborn and vengeful, being very hypocritical. After that, Isabel and Markal depart for the Hall of Heroes. When Isabel and Markal are saved from demons by Raeleg, Markal ungratefully orders him out of the way, despite the fact he would have been killed either by demons, or by the disgusted citizens of the Empire.

Raising Nicolai as a vampire, Markal informs Isabel that he did bring Nicolai back, with his soul dammed and now a vampire lord. With Isabel going too terrified and insane from the loss, Markal decides to stop playing puppet master and declares himself ruler of the Griffin Empire, crushing Fiona's skull in his hand. Ordering Nicolai to invade the Elven realm of Irollan, either to turn it into a kingodom of undead, or just for his pleasure, Markal's forces overrun the border, briefly occupy the Elven capital Syris Thalla and slaughter countless Elves including their king Alaron. Counterstrikes by the Elven Lord Findan the Elves are able to liberate Irollan and defeat Nicolai, but the Elves are badly damaged, and only Findan is able to depart.

Meanwhile, Zehir the son of Cyrus is eager to take advantage of Markal's war against elves and demons and begins to reconquer the Silver Cities. After taking Markal's fortress Lorekeep, Zehir marches to the Griffin Empire, breaks Godric out of prison, liberates the Haven Cities and meets up with Findan. Markal has learned of the triumvirate's arrival and has fortified himself in his stronghold, with three artifacts, The Black Crystal gives Markal the ability to fire spells off without losing mana, the Cursed Garrison which gives him an endless supply of soldiers, and a Tear of Asha. The heroes confront Markal, and after a gruelling battle defeat him. With his army shattered, Markal turns to them and accepts their surrender. The heroes angrily call him a monster for what he did to their homes, and move to kill him. Summoning wights to kill them, Markal gloats that they will have to kill him, and send him to the afterlife, knowing he can be raised, and laughs as Godric and Findan try to kill him. Zehir burns him to ensure he cannot return.

Markal however survived in the Ring of the Unrpentant. Desiring revenge against Zehir, Markal plans to escape the ring and take control of Zehir's body by impersonating his father Cyrus. Zehir is nearly tricked, but Markal ungratitude gives him away. Revealing himself, Markal and Zehir fight and Zehir defeats him, eradicating Markal's spirit and killing him for good.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

Indeed he is. As the demons are presented as always Chaotic Evil, they do not count. Markal by contrast is clearly in control of his own actions. The plot significantly darkens by the end of his campaign. Furthermore, he is responsible for the severe decline of the Griffin Empire, as Markal's association with Isabel causes the civil war to escalate. Also many of his actions are motivated by power and revenge, with some very manipulative power. So he is by far very heinous by the standards of the story.

Freudian Excuse ore Redeeming Traits.

Markal has neither a Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits. Many of his more kinder actions are clearly based on simply pragmatism, or if they benefit him in the long run. His manipulation of Isabel by bringing back her husband was a clear case of Faux Affably Evil, and Markal knew fully well what the result would be, meaning Markal's war with the Wizards was for nothing and when Isabel asked what went wrong when he brought Nicolai back, Markal asked what she meant, while grinning extremely sadistically. He only stopped Nicolai from killing his bride so that he could keep Isabel on the throne devastated while he ruled. He did fight the demons, but it is pretty obvious that Markal only fought them in order to keep up appearances. So nothing mitigates his pure evil.

Final Thoughts

Well all in all, I think he qualifies by a huge margin. Promising to bring back a grieving woman's husband, knowing full well what the result would be, converting entire cities and their population into the undead, and starting two wars jut for his twisted desire of revenge and power and also for his own benefit is pretty evil by my standards. So he definitely qualifies.

Well that is Markal. See if you think he fits, folks.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81287: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:58:26 AM

Man. Turning entire towns into Necromancy fodder is....dark as hell.

I'm giving Markal an easy yes.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#81289: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:27:07 AM

[tup] Markal

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#81290: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:29:31 AM

Ok now people are seeing the Markal post, thought for a second it was getting ignored. On Markal, is it just me or do I get Gul'dan vibes from him?

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#81292: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:34:57 AM

[tup]Markal

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#81295: Apr 17th 2017 at 10:45:34 AM

No one listened to my suggestion about Non-Stop so I will bring it up one more time.

This...

Should be replaced by this...

edited 17th Apr '17 10:45:46 AM by randomtroper89

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81296: Apr 17th 2017 at 10:47:46 AM

I kinda like this:

Zack White and Tom Bowen send anonymous text messages to Bill Marks demanding $150 million, threatening to kill someone every 20 minutes if the money is not transferred.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#81297: Apr 17th 2017 at 11:33:29 AM

[tup]Markal.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#81298: Apr 17th 2017 at 12:08:34 PM

For Markal, I'm inclined to vote [tup], but 2 questions:

How does he compare to Kalibarr? I'm guessing Heroes is part of the same universe.

On his character page, it says he's trying to avenge Sandro. Is this presented as redeeming?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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