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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

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Edited by nombretomado on Sep 23rd 2019 at 4:42:19 AM

Paireon from Wherever you go there you are Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Apr 20th 2012 at 12:46:13 PM

yellow thought box: Oh, how I missed you, Complete Monster Special Efforts thread! What fun shall we have together!/yellow thought box

*Ahem* Cheap Deadpool paraphrasing aside, good to be back. To the 3 previous posters: I support the cut, especially since (AFAIK; been a long time since I saw Troy) the plans mentioned really don't go anywhere; a CM has to successfully pull off his horrible deeds; he's just another asshole if he doesn't.

Also, just went through a cleanup of the Berserk subpage; if there are no objections, I propose lockup.

edited 20th Apr '12 12:49:04 PM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Apr 20th 2012 at 2:35:13 PM

Another villain that I want to discuss is Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty She has been deleted once, because two users wanted her to, and the reason was she has motives rather than for the sake of evil. I think she qualifies though.

One user on the other page said:

''Yes, absolutely Maleficent belongs in this trope, because she is a monster. She's willing to murder a child for no real reason other than spite or pure fun, is very sadistic when she does this, has no Freudian Excuse to back her up, no loved ones except, MAYBE, her raven and even then it's doubtful, as she seems to only like Diablo because he isn't incompetent, since aside from a small moment of shock at his fate, she doesn't try reversing it or doing anything to save him and instead goes on to try and kill Philip. And what is this thing about Maleficent being taken more lightly? How is the murder of someone out of spite or fun taken lightly in this movie? When it happens it's incredibly dark and creepy. And let's not forget what she planned on doing to Philip before the fairies interfered, which also would have caused the entire kingdom to suffer as well due to a spell that the fairies cast. Which just seems far worse than Frollo's and Lotso's actions when you think about it. She's willing to put not only two people in a Fate Worse than Death out of spite/fun, but also an entire kingdom, since she must know by now what the good fairies had done, seeing as how she easily showed Philip Aurora. In other words, Maleficent is pure evil and rightly deserves to be designated as a Complete Monster, the fact that she's cool is of no consequence when you take her actions in the movie and analyze them.''

The description of her was:

  • How does Maleficent respond to minions who make stupid mistakes? Fire them? No, she fires painful-looking shocks of static electricity AT them. How she treats her own minions is just the start; she casts a death curse (that can be activated any time during the period of 16 years) on the king's daughter, either because she wasn't invited to the baby shower or maybe just for fun. And the lengths she goes to in defending that curse include having her minions tie up and chain someone who tries to save her. Maleficent then taunts him sarcastically about "true love conquering all" while he's chained, even granting him a Mind Rape of a vision to accompany her twisted narration. When he manages to escape, she tries to kill him with a "forest of thorns" and when even that doesn't work, she transforms into a dragon, and tries to burn him alive. Some pity might be felt for her, though, as Good Fairy Fauna points out that she knows nothing of true love and goodness, and as a result, she's likely "not really ever happy".

edited 20th Apr '12 2:37:44 PM by MONEYMONEY

Apr 20th 2012 at 3:22:39 PM

@Paireon: In reference to the Berserk subpage, we did at one point come to a consensus that Mozgus wasn't a Complete Monster due to those altruistic qualities and aspects of Well Intentioned Extremist-ism in his Knight Templar characterization that are implied (albeit downplayed) in that entry. Separate from that consensus, I'd like to weigh in on his presence on that page.

In spite of how that entry expounds on how his Soulsaving Crusader intent does not justify his actions, I do believe that they kind of redeem him as a character and that they really do matter towards his characterization. There is genuine, believable altruistic intent behind the torture Mozgus inflicts upon his victims, and not in a half-assed sense. There is no insincerity behind any his acts (the entry itself even implies this) and his common demeanor is devoid of sadism and malice; he even admits that the acts that he commits do not please him, but he still does what is necessary for God and for the victims themselves. As I read those chapters of Berserk again to reinforce my point, I really do not see Mozgus as a Complete Monster. I see him commit terrible acts in the name of his fanaticism, but at the same time, I also see a man so wholly attached to doing what he genuinely and unerringly considers to be the right thing that I cannot condemn him to CM territory.

I have no other problems with the characters who are on that subpage, but I also think that some of those entries are rather bloated; some play off as extended character backgrounds that lead into the Complete Monster entry, some have details that are tangentially related and some details are just superfluous. That page could use some more editing before being locked.

edited 20th Apr '12 3:23:12 PM by AquaRegia

ChrisX ..... from ..... Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
Apr 20th 2012 at 4:13:57 PM

This reminds me... I remember that in the past, there's one certain user who was active in Fist Of The North Star and he's completely adamant in emphasizing that Thouzer/Souther is an irredeemable Complete Monster and 'no one should like him' (said used do not actively try to edit further like this as of now). We know what he did was utterly horrible and far outweighing his Freudian Excuse. However, due to the circumstances of his Start of Darkness and his end where he 'regained' his humanity and wept for his master... does he actually fit as a Complete Monster or was he an extreme version of Jerkass Woobie instead?

edited 20th Apr '12 4:14:42 PM by ChrisX

Apr 20th 2012 at 4:47:07 PM

I actually wouldn't argue for Souther in the same way just because his Freudian Excuse seems like an informed trait that, up until he weeps for his master at the end, is not reflected by his characterization, his deeds or the context of either in any way, shape or form.

That said, Souther probably doesn't count as a Complete Monster in that he is easily forgiven by the entire cast and posthumously receives a large chunk of pathos, potentially disqualifying him from rule #2. It think it's a crappy technicality, but if that's the case, it is what it is.

edited 20th Apr '12 4:50:30 PM by AquaRegia

Apr 21st 2012 at 1:30:30 AM

[up][up][up] Sorry, but this is off topic! I started talking about Maleficent[up][up][up][up], and you interrupted. Return to the topic. We are NOT talking about Sauther or Berseker. About Maleficent.

edited 21st Apr '12 1:31:24 AM by MONEYMONEY

Apr 21st 2012 at 6:23:08 AM

[up] If that was even the case, you'd be in violation by diverting Paireon's request for commentary prior to your proposal. Some of us ARE talking about Berserk; please be patient.

Though I'll throw this in: I don't know anything about Maleficent and I do not know from where that quote came, but it obviously didn't sway anyone. This is your entire argument; if this didn't work originally, it won't work again and then there's no real argument left. If you really want to press this issue, I'd recommend personally weighing in on her validity instead of relying entirely on a quote.

In addition, it's actually convenient that Souther was mentioned, because in the same vein as him, if someone can penetrate all of the badness that permeates Maleficient's villainy and feel pathos for her, that's going against rule #2. I don't really have any context, but that seems to place her validity on shaky ground by default.

edited 21st Apr '12 6:24:00 AM by AquaRegia

lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Apr 21st 2012 at 6:59:01 AM

If Berserk is almost done, please take care of it first so it can safely be locked.

Apr 21st 2012 at 11:23:31 AM

[up][up] Okay, so after finishing on Berserk, lets return to Maleficent. I am asking those people who know about her. If majority thinks she counts, I will make a request to add her to the list (Disney page is locked because of Edit Wars)

Apr 21st 2012 at 12:02:40 PM

I'd like to get an example added to Monster.Video Games:

  • Legaia II: Duel Saga - In-Universe example with Bishop Doplin. After you defeat Elliot and Marienne for the final time, the party confronts Doplin in order to obtain the Pyrolith . After he learns that the duo is dead, he remarks that he never cared about them, and was just using them for their power, causing the party to go ballistic.
—> Maya: I used to think that there was no such thing as a truly evil person. but... I guess I was wrong. —> Kazan: I've never met anyone as rotten to the core... This is not a man, he's garbage.

Doplin starts off as your basic depraved aristocrat character. His goons capture you and lock you up in the dungeon early on in the game, where you first meet him. He goes on about grandiose ideas about remaking the world and creating a new world order, but it's obvious that he only cares about power and expanding his power. He's frequently shown as demeaning his subordinates, with the exception of Marienne and Elliot, who he rescued and took under his wing. However, after they die, the above exchange takes place, where he likens the duo to stray dogs, remarks how he never loved them, and that they were failures and a waste of his time. The party remarks as shown above.

This exchange occurs in the first two minutes of this video.

edited 21st Apr '12 12:06:17 PM by DarkConfidant

Apr 21st 2012 at 5:58:07 PM

[up][up]Let's not return to her. Since you've come to this thread you've been rude and trying to boss people around; this is the second or third time you've interupted a previously running discussion with a different character, and then you tried to control the topic by telling people they shouldn't talk about other candidates until you're done with your proposal even though that has never been how this thread has worked.

We were working on the anime page before you showed up, so just because you don't want to work on those pages (by your own admission) doesn't mean this topic has to bend and twist to your will just to keep you in it, especially considering that several of the bad examples on the Video Game subpage were written by you on works you had never played for yourself.

If you want to help, help, but don't try and control everything.

[up]To that example I would have to say is that it? Because it doesn't seem that Complete Monster-ish. Just that the guy is a giant asshole, and the only actions supporting his inclusion are him being an asshole to his mooks.

Apr 21st 2012 at 6:01:12 PM

[up] I want to put it there as an in-universe example. The characters themselves are basically calling him a CM in that clip shown.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Apr 21st 2012 at 7:14:02 PM

So noted. It's probably not strictly necessary to continue on then, even though I feel that he does qualify as a CM.

Apr 21st 2012 at 11:51:07 PM

[up]Well, why do you feel that he's a complete monster? What does he do beyond being a giant dick?

Paireon from Wherever you go there you are Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Apr 24th 2012 at 11:18:20 AM

@Aqua Regia: I still personally think he fits, because 1: He's a Knight Templar, and those can be complete monsters even though their defining character trait is that they do what they do due to being utterly convinced they're right (invalidating your argument that this disqualifies him);

2: The "God" he serves with such zeal (even if he's unaware of it) is actually the Idea of Evil, and his victims are basically condemned to Hell by the suffering he puts them through. It may not be his full intent (though it certainly is what he intends for those who die before repenting), but it's the result in any case, and other Knight Templar types have been put here when it's shown that the consequences of their actions are this horrible, even if they themselves don't realise it.

3: Any supposed regrets he says he feels are expressed in the same dissonant serenity tone he always uses when not in RAGEFACE mode (even when about to start torturing someone), and the way he exults in now being able to even better bring "God's justice" to the masses after he goes One-Winged Angel looks way too enthusiastic for a guy who supposedly doesn't really like it.

That's my 2 cents, anyway; the text. If other tropers chip in to voice their opinion on the matter, I think we can lay this one to rest, erase/keep Mozgus, and lock the Berserk page.

Oh, and just to put it on record, I wasn't the one who put back Mozgus there, though I did clean up what looked to me like a bunch of natter, as well as several cases of bombastic, superfluous elements in it and other entries.

Also, concerning the other subjects at hand:

Souther: I'm not that familiar with Fist, but if people in-story who are fully aware of his numerous evils still find a bit of Sympathy for the Devil for him, and the author seems to consider them to be right, I agree that it disqualifies him.

Maleficent: Old-timers of the CM discussions may remember my rant about why she and Gaston shouldn't be on the list. My opinions haven't changed on this matter; I can copy-paste and edit the piece in this thread if anyone asks (I think it's still around).

Bishop Doplin: As Shaoken says.

edited 24th Apr '12 11:50:11 AM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Apr 24th 2012 at 12:32:27 PM

Ugh, please not with the Maleficent talk again. She's yet another example of how one can be irredeemably evil and yet not be a Complete Monster.

For Fist Of The North Star, I've always been of the belief that the author realized that he ended up writing Souther as a monster initially, didn't want him to be such a monster, and tried to backtrack from it. How well it actually worked, I'll leave that for another debate. That said, the author deliberately tried to pull Souther back, so I think he doesn't qualify.

Bishop Doplin seems like a good old-fashioned Jerkass to me - being callous about fallen allies is not even on the list of things that would have me consider CM status.

I'll trust other people's take on Berserk; I'm not familiar with it myself.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Apr 25th 2012 at 6:21:52 AM

[up] We decided that we are NOT returning to Maleficent until we will be done with all the villains. I still say that she does count for this trope more than most Disney Villains, and she should be on the list. I will not say my reasons now, though, because now we are discussing other villains.

Apr 25th 2012 at 6:52:00 AM

After thinking about it and scouring the source material some more, I'm going to remove Doplin from consideration as CM. He's definitely a bad boss, a major jerk, and nasty as they come, but that alone does not warrant CM status upon further reflection.

If anyone else feels that he is a CM, please feel free to state your case.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Apr 25th 2012 at 8:50:31 AM

@768 I hadn't posted in a few days due to computer issues; I was just voicing my opinion... including that Maleficent is settled territory and shouldn't be brought up again even after we finish with other examples.

Hmm... going over the Monster/OnePiece page again (we did a partial look back on page 22 of this thread)... we actually start with a bunch of natter (listing seven villains that are by admission not complete monsters), and things aren't much better beyond that. Going over the listed characters...

The Celestial Dragons - I'll admit that the actions of the ones shown qualify (let's see, slavery, kidnapping, killing someone for objecting to said kidnapping, callous treatment of the injured), it's a bit unfair to paint all of them as monsters by the actions of one member. This one should be clarified to be the one that Luffy fought on Sabaody.

Shiryu/Shiliew of the Rain - Most of his actions qualify as Offscreen Villainy. While there's little reason to doubt the characters who list his sins (most of which involved killing convicted criminals... perhaps Disproportionate Retribution, but also generally Acceptable Targets), the only actions on-screen that he takes that are evil is not watching his attacks (which do tend to decimate his would-be allies) and betraying the government for Blackbeard (which is just trading which evil he works for). He is Ax-Crazy and likely to reach this status in the future, but I don't think he's actually there yet.

Admiral Akainu - I would agree that his actions during the Paramount War (which included killing allies for trying to escape from a pointless battle and attempting to kill the Only Sane Man trying to stop it), but much of that is Natter (with a dash of Protagonist-Centered Morality - the on-screen death he was responsible for was a roguish nice guy with plenty of charm... and also a professional pirate who was condemned to death).

The nobles of Goa Kingdom - good, although it needs to be less spoilered.

Caribou - This one is borderline, because I'm not sure whether people are just reading the rape overtones into it or not. If so, he's really just a Bad Boss. Any thoughts?

Hody Jones - I think he qualifies, but much of it is spoilered and natter-filled at the same time. Needs a major rewrite.

The Five Elder Stars - This was re-added by NintendoNate25, after it was removed by Shaoken. No reason was given. I think the usual procedure of taking the issue to Ask The Tropers is best here.

Big Mom - See above.

Caesar Clown - Looks good, although I still have issues with anything that heavily spoilered.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Paireon from Wherever you go there you are Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Apr 25th 2012 at 7:39:23 PM

[up]For the Celestial Dragons, I've jut been reading up about them on the One Piece Wiki (hurray for The Wiki Rule!) and several of those seen could probably count: Charloss (the one who Luffy punched), his sister Shalulia (but not their father Roswald, as he doesn't do much on-screen except shooting Luffy), Jalmack and maybe even Mjosgard (those last 2 were in flashbacks, but that still counts as on-screen as their actions were seen by the audience/readers).

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Apr 25th 2012 at 8:34:44 PM

Wait, so somebody put back in an example I took out? What a jerk, I'm fairly certain I put that it was made by this thread. I'm getting the feeling I should check on the other pages I made the removals/changes on.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Apr 27th 2012 at 7:38:50 AM

I'll have to think it over, but it's fair to list multiple Celestial Dragons. Just not the entire group as one... particularly as, given the fact that Oda likes showing that there's always at least one member who isn't bad in a given class, there's probably going to eventually be a good one.

As for [up]... yeah, you did actually list this thread in your edit reasons, Shaoken, and they put the examples back anyhow. I already got this fixed in Ask The Tropers (and got a lock on the Monster page for One Piece), but it's probably a good idea to go back and check to see if any other work is being undone.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Apr 27th 2012 at 5:40:04 PM

Okay, lookng through the ones I did edit, Full Metal Alchimest is good in that my edits weren't revertet. Same with Mosnter/{Bleach}, from the looks of it nobody I removed is back on there.

But this reminds me that we should really get to some of the sub-subpages and get them cleaned and locked so nobody can undo our work.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Apr 28th 2012 at 8:57:55 PM

I'm here to discuss the characters listed on MLP:FIM's YMMV page. While a lot of users cried wolf with Discord; his evil is obviously too comical to apply; now that season 2 is over it might be a good time to discuss the other characters there.

The Windigos from the Hearth's Warming Eve episode don't count, IMO. Yes, they are fairly spooky; especially for MLP villains; but as has been pointed out there, it's unclear how aware they are of their actions, and it could be just survival instinct. The episode they're from can be watched here.

The dragon bullies from the Dragon Quest episode probably don't count, but they're closer to it than the Windigos were. Despite being otherworldly physically, something seems more "real" about their evil than most MLP villains, given that they do things like bullying and animal cruelty, but then again, there seems to be a degree of comedy to the portrayal of these things. The specifics are described further on the page. *

Also, the episode can be watched here.

I'm inclined to think Chrysalis from Canterlot Wedding applies, though. Her villainy seems to be played mostly for revulsion, rather than for laughs or pity like most MLP villains are, and from what I've seen, fans seem to hate her more strongly than other MLP:FIM villains. *

Note that she was from a Wedding Day two-parter, and turned even that into a surprisingly dark two-parter through her actions, which range from the somewhat down-to-Earth like trying to manipulate everyone into distrusting whoever calls her out on not being as nice as she seems, to unleashing an army of changelings upon Canterlot. (An especially disturbing element as it erodes ability to tell who's who in-universe, which would open up a whole new can of worms as far as deception goes if it wasn't stopped.) Anyway, the two-parter can be watched here.

So, in a nutshell, I'd consider Chrysalis the show's darkest villain yet, and I'm guessing others would tend to agree with me, though granted that isn't saying much as far as whether or not she counts as a CM goes. However, looking at the description, she seems to fit that as well. I suggest keeping Chrysalis on the YMMV page's CM section while removing the other characters, and I also suggest crosswicking Chrysalis onto the Western Animation subpage of Complete Monster.

edited 29th Apr '12 5:09:05 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

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