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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#77101: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:40:29 PM

[up] "because he was always the symbol of this trope."

Stop. Now. We've already said this trope isn't a goddamned badge of honor numerous times. That's hearkening back to being opposed to cutting show!Joffery - not because of possible mitigating factors but because it was "an insult to the trope."

And to answer your question, it's because he was proposed and accepted at a time when the show's heinous standard wasn't so high. We can change and removes candidates if an ongoing series' heinous standard becomes too high - that's how Tao Pai Pai and the Marauder went. We're not using a badge of honor argument to keep him. If anything, that strengthens my resolve to cut.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:43:58 PM by Scraggle

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#77102: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:43:28 PM

Okay, so Galavan I guecan be cut. But Palpatine will always have to stay, unless he gets a redeeming quality. And of course it isn't a badge of honor; it is a badge of dishonor.

Edit: Also I remember many pages back Ambar made an excellent point; If one new villain, more heinous, shows up, you can be judged on your own accord. But if multiple villains, including some minor ones, start committing some very heinous acts, you are in trouble.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:45:49 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#77103: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:44:18 PM

The other thing about Galavan is that his heinousness In-Universe is really major. Ravok's post kind of entirely glossed over the whole "killed Penguin's mother in Penguin's arms" which is pretty uniquely awful, and keep in mind that Galavan is dangerous enough that Gordon chose to murder him.

On the other-other hand, he does go on to regret that decision, though that seems to largely be because killing him caused problems for him later.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#77104: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:44:57 PM

[up][up] Why are you on Palpatine? Why did you pull this argument up and what does he have to do with this discussion about Galavan?

If it just so turned out Palpatine developed a mitigating quality, it doesn't matter how bullshit that sort of twist would be. We'd have to cut him. And why? Because he fails the criteria for the trope and is a non-example. That's occurred with other villains before - remember Acacia from Toriko? His redeeming traits came right out of nowhere and were executed piss-poorly. He still doesn't qualify as much as I hate to say it.

And once again? It's not a badge. It's a trope. Honor, dishonor, whatever, stop treating it like something to be won. That implies a measure of bias that continues to hamper our cleanup efforts.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:47:04 PM by Scraggle

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#77105: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:45:09 PM

With Snoke, we don't know anything about him except that Kylo Ren works for him and he ordered the destruction of the Hosnian System (albeit with some persuasion from Hux), and nothing in the backstory apart from the fact that he tempted Kylo Ren to the Dark Side of the Force. I guess we'll learn more in subsequent episodes.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:45:19 PM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#77106: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:47:03 PM

[up][up] That is what I said, if Palpatine got a redeeming quality, we would indeed have to cut him. But not if a new villain steals him most heinous title.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#77107: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:47:58 PM

[up] Whatever. Let's keep the argument off him and off that subject before I blow up again because nothing we're talking about has anything to do with the current topic.

Any other thoughts on Galavan and the heinous standard?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#77108: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:48:04 PM

@Larkman:The heck? I didn't gloss over it. I specifically pointed it out in many of my posts.

But guess what? Plenty. Other. Villains. Do it. Too. Jervis threatened to kill BOTH of Jim's loved ones. Jerome ordered Alfred, Bruce's surrogate father, murdered just to screw with him, and Penguin himself murdered Ed's girlfriend because he was jealous.

Killing loved ones is no longer unique in the series. I'm sorry, but it's not. When it happened originally, it was nasty and horrible, but so many villains have done it now, that it's no longer special.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:48:55 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#77109: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:48:46 PM

So......about Deckert? And Galavan? Can we go back to them and get off Star Wars?

Screw it, I'll take Ravok's word on this. Cut Galavan.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:50:48 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#77110: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:49:32 PM

And Kaiser as well, since he was EP'd by someone...

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#77111: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:49:40 PM

Maybe a bit OT here, but I just had a chuckle while reading the Deadpool characters page listing Ajax, the Hate Sink entry of which claims him to literally be the most disgusting person ever portrayed in film.

If someone honestly thinks that, I don't think they've seen a lot of films.

Speaking of which, I don't think I've ever actually voted on him. [tup] There's nothing disqualifying him, although I did find the actor to be terrible.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:53:45 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#77112: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:50:45 PM

Okay, I gotta hear more details about series heinous standard before I decide on Galavan. If multiple villains out-heinous him, I will support a cut. But if it is just Jerome, I see no reason not to keep him.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#77113: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:52:03 PM

Jerome, Tetch, the Dollmaker, and Strange. All commit actions worse than anything Theo gets up to despite almost all of them having significantly less resources. Torture and murder - the majority of what Theo does - isn't anything new and the setting and we've established others beat out Theo in most of his more heinous crimes (i.e. Tetch beats out Theo in terms of killing people's loved ones).

edited 13th Feb '17 12:53:10 PM by Scraggle

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#77114: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:52:05 PM

[up][up][up]Oh I can definitely agree that he is not a Hate Sink.

I have the write up written. Will post when Deckert receives enough votes. Currently we're I think 5-2 including me and I say yes.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:57:57 PM by futuremoviewriter

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#77115: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:52:56 PM

[up][up] Huh? That makes it an easy cut in this case.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#77116: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:54:06 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] The worst ever on film? That's funny [lol]. Incidentally, to kill those ahead of him to become President, that'd be the Treasury Secretary, State Secretary, President pro tempore of the Senate, Speaker of the House, and VP (and the President as well).
What's Tetch's disqualifying factor? "Loving" his sister?


Here are the pending writeups (exluding Lighty's 10 and my Dokuro trio):

edited 13th Feb '17 12:55:38 PM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#77117: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:56:03 PM

Anyways, back to a candidate that's being overlooked here... going through the effortpost? I think I'm going to say a yes to Kaiser. Don't ignore the EP, all... post is right here. It had the misfortune of being posted at the bottom of the page and burying it isn't good practice.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#77119: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:57:12 PM

I'll...also give a yea to Kaiser right now.

And cut that misuse of Evil having loved ones.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#77121: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:57:21 PM

Killing a character's loved one is one thing, you're right that it barely bares mentioning (since, after all, pretty much everyone is somebody's loved one), but literally killing them in their loved one's arms is something else entirely.

And in a related note, we need to go over the difference between "threatening to kill someone" and "trying (and failing) to kill someone." People seem to be treating them as essentially interchangeable in terms of heinousness, which is something I can't agree with. Trying to kill someone seems like it should be as bad as following through because it shows that they would if they could, akin to the resources rule. But merely threatening to kill someone means we're assuming intent (unless it's truly clear that they would go through with it).

[down] Again, it's not that Galavan killed Penguin's mother. It's that he killed her in Penguin's arms. Do you reallly not see the difference there?

edited 13th Feb '17 1:02:52 PM by Larkmarn

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#77122: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:58:30 PM

Will give a 'Yes' to Kaiser.

Ok, once more.

  • "Galavan kills and tortures a bunch of people"
    • Utterly generic for the setting that it's about as shocking as seeing a character breathe. Jervis Tetch kills men and eomen through Psychic-Assisted Suicide, nearly walks a kid in front od a truck, and molested his little sister. Dollmaker butchers people by the dozen and uses their body parts in trafficking. Strange nearly "nuked Gotham''.

  • "Galavan killed Penguin's mother"
    • Villains threaten and succeed to kill their enemy's loved ones regularly nowadays. When Galavan was originally proposed, it was somewhat unique, but it's old hat now.

  • "Galavan released Jerome onto the city"
    • What Jerome does WITH Galavan's resources is eclipsed by what he does without them in Season 3, so that's no longer particularly bad.

  • "Galavan threatened his own sister and niece"
    • His sister is a sadistic bimbo who deserves to die, and threatening his niece is one Kick the Dog that is eclipsed by other villains.

So, yeah. Someone please rebutt this stuff. Because these are facts, and as they stand, they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Galavan is no longe heinous enough.

edited 13th Feb '17 1:00:46 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#77123: Feb 13th 2017 at 12:58:45 PM

[up]X5 What Lighty said. He certainly got along cordially enough with Angel Dust, but I don't recall him caring about her in a way that would be disqualifying.
I think I'll vote yes on cutting Galavan. And repeating my yes on Kaiser.
Scraggle: Thoughts on Koganei?

edited 13th Feb '17 1:01:29 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#77124: Feb 13th 2017 at 1:02:17 PM

Cut Galavan. Nobody has been really able to provide a compelling case to keep him now.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#77125: Feb 13th 2017 at 1:03:04 PM

I can't recall for certain, but maybe Deckert wanted to take out the whole cabinet and not just those ahead of him. I think he also planned for more people to die to make it look good too. I'm going off of what I can remember and what Villains Wiki said for the most part.

edited 13th Feb '17 1:04:29 PM by futuremoviewriter


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