During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
That short story potential I mentioned the other day was a bust (Freudian Excuse and redeeming qualities), but I still have Legends to check on.
A reaffirmed
to Bony Lizzy.
to the latest Ultron, as well. That's what, the third animated Ultron to qualify? Makes sense, since he's the poster-bot for Robotic Psychopath (Brainiac's a close second, mainly because there are versions of the character where he isn't a complete robot).
@speyeker: Yeah, Deathstroke Jr. is the first one I'm looking at. The Pilgrim right after. If I think either of them are potential keepers, effort-posts should be up either tonight or tomorrow.
edited 10th Feb '17 1:19:22 PM by DeCarta
Okay, here's one of the Legends of Tomorrow possibles I mentioned the other day. Before anyone panics, this will be much shorter than my effortpost for Vandal Savage, as this contender only appeared in one episode. The basic premise is easy enough (time-travelling superheroes) and the Arrowverse has been brought up here enough that I won't bothering with exposition.
Anyway, here he is: Grant Wilson/Deathstroke II.
Who is he?
Grant is the son of Slade Wilson, Big Bad of Arrow Season 2. As he appears in the Bad Future of 2046, Grant has taken up his father's identity as Deathstroke and has taken over Star City... not that there's much left to rule by 2046.
What does he do?
In 2031, Grant came to Star City, bringing an army of thugs and criminals with him, and attacked the city in what was dubbed "The Uprising". The police and Team Arrow tried to defend the city, but over the next fifteen years, the civillian population evacuated, leaving Deathstroke and his army to battle the few who opposed him. By the time all was said and done, Deathstroke's uprising had killed off everyone who stood against him (Diggle, Quentin, and Laurel are explicitly mentioned— when this timeline's Laurel died is unclear, but she's definitely dead— and Word of God confirmed that Roy and Thea died as well), and Grant has maimed Oliver by cutting off his left arm, subsequently considering the spot where he did so "hallowed ground".
Oh, and his age in 2046 implies that he started his attack on Star City when he was teenager. That, or Writers Cannot Do Math; let's just assume it's the first one.
By 2046, Star City is a ravaged hellhole occupied only by criminals and Wilson's men, with Grant himself as its ruler, with every criminal in the city controlled by their fear of him. A broken Oliver lives in hiding, and the only person opposing Wilson is Diggle's son John, who has taken up the name "Connor Hawke" and the identity of Green Arrow. The Legends arrive to see the city in this state, with Rip and Sara encountering Grant not long after. He has his men attack both them and Connor, but they escape. Grant then orders virtually every criminal in Star City to hunt them down.
After Connor is captured, Grant plans to publicly behead him in the spot where he cut off Oliver's arm, but is interrupted by the arrival of Sara and a returned Oliver (now with a robotic arm to replace the one Grant cut off). While his minions battle the Legends, Grant fights and overpowers Connor (who is saved from death by Oliver), then duels with Oliver. He's finally defeated when Connor and Oliver team up to tie him up and knock him out (sounds lame, but he's not an Anti-Climax Boss; he put up a decent fight beforehand). With Grant defeated, Oliver and Connor set out to reclaim the city from the criminal element, and Wilson isn't mentioned afterwards.
Redeeming qualities?
Flat no. Any positive relationship he might have had with his father is unmentioned. In fact, Slade's status in 2046 is left ambiguous, and the only mention he gets from Grant is a comment that the younger Deathstroke hadn't heard his father's name in a long time.
Freudian Excuse or mitigating factors?
Nada. Grant's backstory is a pretty blank slate (which, come to think of it, is kind of glaring for a villain who's the son of Oliver's Arch-Enemy, succeeded in conquering Star City, and killed pretty much every hero the city had to offer; They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character here, actually). Any influence Slade had on his son isn't brought up, aside from an offhand comment that the Wilson's are a "nice family".
Verdict
In terms of heinousness, he's way behind Vandal Savage, but doesn't seem to have anything like Savage's resources. The takeover of Star City happens offscreen (the more I type, the more I feel like this episode tells a better story than Seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow; I actually feel kind of cheated for not seeing it all played out), but the results are visible throughout the episode (the city in ruins, Oliver's missing arm, criminals roaming the streets and submitting to Grant's authority). In terms of personality, Grant... doesn't have much of one. He's smug, sadistic, I'm pretty sure he's a sociopath... that's about it. He lacks the gravitas of some of Arrow's better villains, but to all appearances, he's as nasty as any of them, and being underwhelming isn't much of a disqualifier. I'm not sure how well he stacks up, but I'll leave it in the forum's hands. I'm not 100% sold on him, but I lean towards Deathstroke Jr (my nickname for him) as a keeper.
I'm interested in seeing what the community's thoughts are in discussing Lucas Baker from Resident Evil 7: Biohazard and his potential CM status.
I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927@Thursdays Gregor: I remember that someone was going to effortpost Lucas a few days back, though nothing really happened.
edited 10th Feb '17 4:03:12 PM by FriedWarthog
Yeah, I'm also going to vote no on Grant Wilson. He exists more so they could do a Bad Future episode than as much of an onscreen character.
How about Arjen Rudd in the second Lethal Weapon film?
Who Is He?: Arjen Rudd is the minister of foreign affairs in South Africa, known for his harsh actions against blacks as part of apartheid.
What Does He Do? Rudd also does drug dealing and smuggling, abusing his power as a diplomat to cover up his illegal activities. Several years ago, the LAPD was getting close to uncovering his activities, so Rudd authorized the murder of Detective Martin Riggs, though Riggs' wife Victoria was killed in the assassination attempt. At the beginning of the film, when one of his henchmen loses a shipment of gold Kurregands, Rudd has his dragon Pieter Vorstedt execute the henchman for his failure. As the investigation starts to pick up speed, Rudd orders the deaths of all the detectives involved in the investigation and Vorstedt murders six of the eight detectives, with the exception of Riggs and Roger Murtaugh. Rudd also has his secretary Rika, who was in a relationship with Riggs, drowned in the bay just to spite him. This prompts Riggs and Murtaugh to infiltrate Rudd's ship, killing all of Rudd's men, including Vorstedt after a fight with Riggs, with Riggs admitting that for that night, "[he] wasn't a cop, It's Personal." Even with his operation exposed and all his men dead, Rudd refuses to admit defeat, shouting "Diplomatic immunity!" after shooting Riggs a dozen times before being killed by Murtaugh, the latter replying "It's just been revoked!" Rudd was the villain who cut the deepest for both Riggs and Murtaugh and the one they were willing to go farthest to stop the drug ring and avenge their comrades and loved ones.
None. Just Greed.
Mitigating Circumstances?
None.
Heinous Standard?: He's the Big Bad, he sets it for the film.
edited 10th Feb '17 5:59:32 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsFurther elaboration on Kaiser as listed in Lord of Magna: Maiden Heaven
Lord of Magna: Maiden Heaven
" Complete Monster: Kaiser. A man who turned a once-prosperous kingdom into an Evil Empire through waging countless wars that spanned the entire globe and seeking to usurp God's power by literally enslaving his children and using them to obtain even more power in his futile attempt to bring his wife Back from the Dead all because he couldn't accept her death and literally put all of the blame on his newborn son. Even worse: He's immortal, so his actions have lasted for centuries! Even more worse: He used the fake Lachyrima to revive his wife's body (which cannot survive without his power) and forced her to fight too! "
On what Demon Duckof Doom said, he did love his wife before her death in childbirth, but still doesn't consider her revived body to be her and thus uses her as a conduit to summon monsters in his goals of conquest against her will as he tries to find a way to truly revive her. All of this is done against her will and she is the one who sets the plan in motion to stop him once and for all since even she thinks he's beyond redemption.
Even if it's not approved, what's listed up there can likely just be moved to elaborate on his crossing the MEH.
edited 10th Feb '17 4:49:58 PM by GunarmDyne
Wait what, Grant Wilson?
He was the absolute bog standart Villain of the Week, and while he didn't have Savage's ressources, he falls flat compared to what his old man Slade did, which we have to compare him with, since it's the same verse.
Don't know about a heinous standard for the franchise since I only go by what I see, but Rudd (and Vorstedt) are responsible for half the conflict (Riggs' suicidal nature) in the first film without showing up or even being mentioned before appearing in the second film.
edited 10th Feb '17 5:54:50 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsRudd is a yes and I'd like to hear more on Pieter, because I explicitly recall that Lighty once talked to me about the potential of these two counting. From what I know, the villains of the first film fail the heinous standard and the villains following 2 either aren't heinous enough or possess redeeming qualities, so I'd say we're most likely looking at the firmest keepers in the series.
Don't know anything about Jack Travis (the Big Bad of the third film) and with the villain of the fourth, he's trying to break his brother out of prison and gets pissed when he gets killed. He's under Rooting for the Empire as well.
On Vorstedt... Vorstedt is the hands-on villain, carrying out Rudd's orders without question. He's personally responsible for the deaths of Riggs' wife years before the film, Riggs and Murtaugh's fellow officers, and Rika. I forgot if he enjoys killing or not. Mitigating qualities? Possibly Undying Loyalty to Rudd, but hey, there's some Complete Monsters who have Undying Loyalty. For the first film, don't see enough of McAllister to be sure, while Joshua is often seen as Evil Is Cool and is unflinchingly loyal.
edited 10th Feb '17 6:20:04 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
to Arjen Rudd.
Looks like Grant Wilson's a no. In hindsight, it was pretty clear when I did the effortpost that he wasn't a keeper. Looking back on Legends now... yeah, I think Savage is the only keeper so far, and any future villains on that show have their work cut out for them to stand out compared to him.
But, hey! My first non-keeper. First out of nine, not bad. But honestly, I don't know what I was thinking with that one. Any future proposals will be more carefully considered. Promise.

Ultron.
Why so serious?