During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@ Lighty, I agree its too early to make a judgment against him, but I think he could count in the future, we at least see hints at his cruelty and I think he could count given time. He just bears watching.
I have been busy lately and my internet has been spotty, so I have not had a chance to watch this new season, I did see the first episode of the second season today.
Anyway, I have yet another Marvel 2099 character to discuss, this one from the X-Men 2099 series:
Who is Brimstone Love? What has he done?
Brimstone Love is a mutant with a demonic appearance and a personality to match. Brimstone Love controls a lovely little group called "The Theater of Pain" that goes around kidnapping people, torturing them and then selling footage of the torture for profit (we see several of his victims when first introduced to him).
One of his main agents is La Lunatica, a mutant who make people relive their worse memories. La Lunatica is Brimstone's slave, he uses a slave collar to control her and will shock her if she gets out of line. La Lunatica kidnaps several of the X-Men and begins to torture them, but a fight with the X-Men frees her from her collar, she promptly escapes and even joins the X-Men.
Brimstone is unhappy that his favorite slave has escaped and intends to recapture her. While stalking La Lunatica, Brimstone takes notice of Xi'an, the leader of the X-Men. Now Xi'an has a split personality, one personality is good, the other one is evil. Xi'an has been repressing the evil personality, but it has resurfaced after Xi'an battled a psychic mutant named Master Zhao. Brimstone manages to convince Xi'an evil side to take over and join his group.
Brimstone then mentally tortures Xi'an, to try and destroy his good side, so the evil side can be forever in control. Brimstone seems to succeed and he and evil Xi'an soon devise a scheme to take the Theater of Pain to new heights.
Brimstone and evil Xi'an have over a thousand people hooked up to a machine that draws power from Master Zhao, this machine will mentally torture them and as usual, Brimstone will sell the footage for a profit. Evil Xi'an and Brimstone even hook up one Xi'an X-men, Cerebra to the machine. We get see this machine in action and it sounds very painful, exposing its victims to torment without no pause.
The X-Men come to rescue Xi'an and shut down the Theater of Pain, but are unable to defeat Brimstone. Evil Xi'an turns against Brimstone, wanting to control the Theater himself, Brimstone teleports away, never to be seen again.
Is heinous by the standards of the story?
I think so, here is why:
I have talked about how screwed up the 2099 universe is in the past, a messed up world controlled by mega corps, etc.
Now I should talk about the X-Men villains, there was a immoral syndicate they first fought, controlled by a family that back stabs each other all the time. Their worse crimes are off panel and frankly that whole family is loathsome, I can't find one worse then the other.
Master Zhao was nasty, experimenting on mutants to recreate superior mutants in the image of the original X-Men and executing one of his followers for failing him, but it is hinted in the story that he went insane, so I can't count him and I do not think he is heinous enough for the 2099 verse.
There is Halloween Jack, a sadistic villain who wanted to use VR tech to turn Los Vegas into a chaotic Hellscape, but he is also insane, so he doesn't count.
There is also evil Xi'an in this situation, whom I will be forgiving towards. Xi'an tried to repress his evil side and outside forces like Brimstone and Zhao brought it out. The X-Men defeat evil Xi'an and force to relive all the evil things he has done, which forces his good side to take over and Xi'an is mortified about what has he done and his good side is a very noble Xavier like figure.
Now Brimstone doesn't have as big a body count as say John Herod, but he has made the torture of innocent people into a business, he lives off the pain of others for fun and profit and as soon as he had the chance, he sought to increase the number of people he could torture
Its unclear whether this mental torture will kill his victims or not, but I do not think that matters. Either his victims die from this torture eventually or they continue to live as his tormented slaves and wish they were dead.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming factors?
LOL.
Final Verdict?
He is a slaver and professional torturer, even if he doesn't kill his victims, his sadism and cruelty count for a lot.
I say keep him.
Edit:
To Polymath.
edited 4th Feb '17 3:42:09 PM by Overlord
Now, a few things:
Foremost: Split.
Nobody counts. All of Kevin's 23 personalities have a protective instinct towards Kevin (And were born to protect him). Most aren't evil or malicious. The ones that are, Dennis and Patricia, both have redeeming qualities. Hedwig, the one who 'released' them, can't count as he's a 9 year old boy in personality and has no real agency or understanding of right and wrong. The Beast...is obviously monstrous and a killer, but he is capable of genuine gratitude. When he kills Kevin's doctor, it's only because he feels he has to, and genuinely thanks her for helping them all till that point. The Beast also has a weird moral code where only people who have suffered greatly deserve to live....but it's a genuine one, and he spares the last of the girls when he sees she meets his criteria. Her uncle, John is strongly implied to be an abusive pedophile, but there's too much offscreen to count him.
Now, for the Gs...
- Garo: Makai no Hana. I've seen the series. The villain references is a Horror named Gogeet who has a spirit of a little girl with him that he introduces as his daughter. It's later revealed that she was his first victim and he uses her as an illusion, enraging the hero raiga. Gogeet, however...doesn't count. Horrors are almost Made of Evil to a one with a few exceptions of profoundly evil people who become Horrors and keep their personalities. In addition, it's not uniquely heinous by Horror standards. All of the Garo villains to qualify thus far (Barago, Tousei Kaneshiro, and Priest Mendoza) have been humans. It's very difficult for a Horror to qualify for this trope due to Agency issues.
- Geek Love: arty sounds like a keeper.
- Gift Der Republik: Yep, also seem like keeps.
@ Cheapsunglasses:
- I kinda think Casanova Frankenstein might count. He was, from what I recall, played pretty straight for a comedy, and while he had comedic moments, his plan is played seriously from what I can recall. I can't think of anything to really disqualify the guy right now.
- Regarding fanworks...if the character is uniquely evil or branches off from the canon in a fanfic, I think they can get an independent entry. If Joffrey does entirely new deeds enough to distinguish himself, then yes. If he's just the exact same character as he is in the books, then the book entry suffices.
Yes to Brimstone Love
I think it's easier for villains to be monsters in the 2099 universe over the Ultimate Universe.
The 2099 universe runs on Black and Gray morality, where a lot of the bad guys range from scum bags to psychopathic monsters and I think that while a lot of the heroes have moral failings, they are ultimately good people who have cross lines to deal with the screwed up society they live in , a nightmarish Cyber Punk dystopia and extreme examples like Punisher have a well defined fall from grace and you are not supposed to sympathize with him after he became a fascist.
That is different than Ultimate Cap, Wolverine and Ant Man acting like pricks for no good reason, who do not live in a Cyber Punk nightmare society.
edited 4th Feb '17 8:00:33 PM by Overlord
'Yes' to Brimstone Love.
Ok, I'll get my write-ups posted soon, but first, I HAVE to propose this asshat that I just read.
There I am, reading Supreme Power, (A Marvel MAX series for those uninitiated) when, all of a sudden, THIS freak pops up. Now, I do my research, check the search and such, and there is NO discussion on thid guy, which quite surprised me because.....DAMN (And I don't use that often).
Without further ado, meet Whiteface.
Who is he?
Whiteface, real name Steven Binst, is a complete psychopath and the main antagonist of the miniseries Supreme Power: Nighthawk.
Binst here is a pharmacist, who decides to....well, let's read on.
What has he done?
Developing a new drug that he wants to test, Binst gives it to a woman for her and her entire family, including two children and a baby, to take for their sickness. His new lethal drug.
The woman and her entire family, baby included, die agonizing deaths, and Binst is later arrested for the crime, then placed in solitary confinement as to prevent him from hurting others.
Unfortunately for Binst, this doesn't save him from getting attacked by numerous prisoners, disgusted at what he did, and, after the implication that they raped him, they slice his cheeks to make a frown (Think a reverse The Dark Knight!Joker situation), and the whole situation puts him into a catatonic state.
Ten years later, Binst awakens, murders a clown, then steals his outfit, redubbing himself "Whiteface" in the process. Binst then replaces a HUGE shipment of cocaine with his homebrewed lethal drug, and within three days, 3800 men women and children die brutally horrific deaths where their blood is expelled through their various orifices.
Later, going to a 6-year old's birthday party as a clown, Binst convinces the numerous kids and adults to suck some helium balloons up to make their voices squeaky. Too bad it's NOT helium, but a lethal gas, and at least one adult and several children die.
When Nighthawk, the resident vigilante, shows up at Binst's current apartment, he discovers that Binst has murdered the man the apartment used to belong to, and is mass producing even more of his drug to spread.
Catching Nighthawk, Binst states that he kills people to "fill a hole" in his life, and that up until now, it never worked, but now that he has an "opposite" (Nighthawk) pursuing him, he feels "whole".
Fleeing after Nighthawk escapes, Binst murders a wheelchair-bound woman before killing a man for his outfit. Binst then goes to a hospital, murders a nurse, and kidnaps a baby.
When two cops notice him waltzing down the street with a conspicuous looking bag, Binst murders them both brutally before heading for the local water processing plant, where he murders a security guard.
Nighthawk shows up, believing Binst is planning to release his drug into the water system. Binst responds by revealing the bag is actually holding the baby, then flings the baby into the water processing unit hoping to drown it while he makes his getaway, planning to continue his spree.
Unfortunately for him, Nighthawk can multitask, and he proceeds to shoot a harpoon through the prick. After saving the baby, Nighthawk approaches the smug Binst, who is now stating he's "ready to go back to prison".
Unfortunate for Binst AGAIN, Nighthawk proceeds to rip the harpoon out of the jackass's chest, then snaps his neck before flinging him into the water processing unit, ending the psychotic Joker-Expy once and for all.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Yeah, he got maimed (And possibly raped) in prison, resulting in his catatonic state for ten years.
The issue? Binst was already evil. The rape didn't make him evil. It didn't make him more sadistic. It was comeuppance in-universe and out for the disgusting way he poisoned a family while pretending to help them. Now, for the first few crimes after he awakens, Binst is eerily monotonous and almost seems genuinely insane. This is quickly subverted by him revealing his sadistic motive, his knowing exactly what he was doing, and, by the end, he's back to his smug, Slasher Smile look as before his prison sentence.
As for the "I kill to fill a hole", this is a pathetic motivation, amounting to "I feel bored, and am gonna commit mass murder to feel good", and when THAT doesn't work, he decides to simply screw with Nighthawk as much as possible.
Heinousness?
In this Supreme Power universe, Binst has the highest onscreen bodycount by FAR. Redstone, a currently listed CM, doesn't have as high a bodycount as him, and Redstone has superpowers. Binst is literally a Joker Expy with no resources, yet he has a body count in the thousands, with plenty of disgustingly repugnant personal murders as well (Seriously, a KID'S BIRTHDAY PARTY?!)
Final Verdict?
KEEP this asshat. Have mercy....
edited 4th Feb '17 8:25:40 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!And the Universe Survival Arc of Dragon Ball Super has began. I'll be doing the effort posts for any candidates the arc may have. While I don't think there will be a CM in it seeing as how it's a Tournament Arc where the teams are fighting for the sake of their universes, but with Frost returning along with the arc having a clown character, I wouldn't find it unlikely.
to Binst
edited 4th Feb '17 8:32:49 PM by Awesomekid42
He knew (Or was hoping) it would kill them. He had been testing it on animals for awhile, first rats, then cats, then pigs, and so on, wanting it to kill, and then finally moved onto human trials. He was then planning to wipe out as much of Chicago as he could with it.
The way it did it with the woman and her family was just....ugh. Woman and her children come in, barking their heads off with a cough, and she informs him their insurance only covers for one of them getting medicine. He informs her he can "make an exception", and cheerily gives her enough medicine for the whole family while she thanks him from the bottom of her heart for his kindness.
Prick.
![]()
Noticed that. Will post an updated write-up for him as well.
edited 4th Feb '17 9:22:53 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I saw that Barlow and Straker were once posted on the Salems Lot page, along with Reggie Sawyer. While Reggie probably doesn't qualify, despite being a total scumbag and later an Asshole Victim, I believe that Straker definitely does, and Barlow ... is debatable. I'll explain why in a bit.
Richard Throckett Straker
Who is he? What did he do? Richard Straker is The Renfield and The Dragon to Kurt Barlow. He kills the young Ralphie Glick and offers him as a Human Sacrifice to Satan so that he could be safe from Barlow, and gives Ralphie's brother, Danny, to Barlow himself, which in the end results in most of the town being turned. Oh yes, and he killed Win Purinton's dog (which, again, was for self-preservation. The dog's "angel eyes" were supposed to ward the vampire off) Later on, when Mark Petrie (spelling?) breaks into the Marsten House, it's shown that Straker keeps a book bound in human flesh that has a photograph of a naked man (possibly Straker himself) holding the dead body of a child. Shortly after this, Straker catches Mark and ties him up for Barlow to turn.
Heinous standard? Well, there are quite a few monstrous (though maybe not completely monstrous) or generally unlikable characters in the book. Most notably, Straker himself — who is a child murderer — and then there's Kurt Barlow, Vampire Monarch and the Big Bad of the novel, who turned almost everybody in town. Besides them, there's the posthumous Hubie Marsten, a devil-worshiping mobster who killed his own wife and corresponded with Barlow. Then there's Sandy McDougall, a trailer trash woman who beats her infant son Randy. Finally, there's Reggie Sawyer, a domestic abuser who assaulted and threatened to kill his cheating wife's lover after catching the two of them in the act. While these are all pretty nasty, Straker is worse than any of them. Disgusting as Reggie was, he only played a very minor role in the book, and is more of a Jerkass and an Asshole Victim than a CM, so he doesn't meet the heinous standard. Hubie was dead long before the events of 'Salem's Lot, and I don't know if posthumous characters count. Sandy at the very, very, very least feels remorse for hurting Randy (not that that makes ANYTHING she does okay, it just disqualifies her) And again, I'll explain why I'm uncertain if Barlow qualifies after I'm done with Straker.
How seriously is he played? At least two of the major characters find him terrifying. He wears an unsettling Psychotic Smirk and is described as "looking like he would break a baby's arm". (paraphrasing) He probably would and very well may have already, considering that he mostly preys on children.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities? It's possible that he made some sort of Deal with the Devil. That would explain the sacrifices, why he was so scared of Barlow to the point where he bought every rose in town to keep himself safe while leaving everyone else vulnerable, why he does any of the terrible things he does ... but this is all speculation on my part. Besides, even if that is the case, what brought him to make such a deal in the first place?
Final Verdict
Easily one of the nastiest characters I've read about. Stephen King took the character of Renfield and not only stripped him of any redeemable characteristics, but turned them into reasons to hate him. His first name says it all. He's a dick.
Kurt Barlow
Who is he? What did he do? Kurt Barlow is a Vampire Monarch and the Big Bad of the novel, Straker's master and a pen pal of the late Hubie Marsten. Aside from turning almost everybody in Jerusalem's Lot, he had many Kick the Dog moments, one involving him voicing his disgust with literal dogs ("Gut them all!") because he sees them as weak and overly emotional. Then he killed Mark's parents in front of him as revenge for Straker's death (which Barlow was responsible for in the first place; Mark only wounded him in self-defense), turned Ben's girlfriend, Susan, and leaving him to find her and kill her, fed some of his blood to Father Callahan to "teach him of a true religion", forbidding him from holy ground forever. One of his final acts is to hypnotize Mark in a last-ditch effort to stop Ben from staking him.
Heinous standard? See Straker above for most of the information pertaining to 'Salem's Lot. I'll say this, though: from what I know of the Dark Tower series, he's revealed to have been a Type One vampire, who sound like they're Always Chaotic Evil, so that might cause some agency issues.
How seriously is he played? Despite having less of a direct presence in the book than his servant did, and having a few friendly (even humorous) conversations with the townspeople before he turns them, as well as being about as hammy as you'd expect a Dracula Expy to be, he's still played rather seriously. Once he reveals his true colors, nobody's laughing, and he turns an entire town into a vampire haven. Even Straker is scared of him.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities? For all his faults, he presents the one time in the book that turning someone can be considered a Pet the Dog moment. After Corey Bryant (the TV repairman who Bonnie had been cheating on Reggie with) had been beaten, humiliated, and nearly killed by Reggie, Barlow offers him a cigarette, and they share a friendly discussion, and Barlow offers him a chance for revenge against Reggie. Also, he's pretty upset when he loses control of his thirst and feeds on and kills Straker, which implies that he may have seen him as something more than just a servant. Granted, Straker was a terrible man, but it's still a rare moment of humanity for Mr. Barlow.
Final Verdict I hate to have just written all that up only to downvote him, but having not read any of the Dark Tower books and consequently not knowing much about the other Type One vampires, I'm on the fence about him. So I just won't vote for now.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:25:39 AM by Stellarvore
Mmm..yeah, I've always figured Straker and Barlow count for this. Even in the Kingverse, they're impressively vile, and the destruction of not only the entire town of Salem's Lot, but a significant amount of damage both before and after (As short stories reveal the vampires routinely prey on travelers) qualify them for me.
Having read the novel....Straker functions as a Reinfield type with incredible agency and nastiness that's distinct from Barlow. However, Barlow and Straker are responsible for tons of deaths and people being turned....who then kill and turn even more people. Straker is a serial child killer who's working for a powerful vampire of his own will as a thrall, and facilitating the deaths of hundreds of innocent people.
amusingly, Barlow flips out about his murder of Straker...not because he liked him, but Straker was the best servant he'd had in centuries. Reggie is thoroughly outclassed here in heinousness.
edited 4th Feb '17 9:56:54 PM by Lightysnake
Yeah, I figured that may have been at least a part of his reason for losing it. I do recall him saying as such in his letter, though maybe I just read a little TOO much into that. And I definitely noticed that there was something much more heinous about Straker than a simple Faustian bargain, though he is most certainly affiliated with El Diablo himself. Why else would he keep that photograph, let alone in a human flesh-bound book?
edited 4th Feb '17 10:03:28 PM by Stellarvore
Whiteface. Wanting to fill a hole totally justifies mass murders
of course
Straker and Barlow
edited 5th Feb '17 12:22:14 AM by Silverblade2
The Polymath, Brimstone and Whiteface.
Sometimes we have villains you'd think would be brought up earlier, but sometimes they're just overlooked.
There's a lot of C Ms out there.
For the Marvel Animation page, I like the image of Carnage about to axe up Spider Man, but we already have Carnage representing Spidey's main page, so I don't think we should be redundant.
I'm gonna take the liberty of removing Gravity Rush 2 and my name from the discussion dates page. I put it up there, so I think I should remove it.
EDIT: Oh. Already gone. OK then.
edited 4th Feb '17 11:51:29 PM by PolarPhantom

He was a dedicated member of the Huntsclan before that, its just that incident caused him to deepen into a much more serious threat.
edited 4th Feb '17 3:13:01 PM by MGD107