During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Otis from House of 1000 Corpses is listed, but look at the Tear Jerker entry for the sequel, The Devil's Rejects:
- Tear Jerker: While unexpected for a film like this, Tiny's final fate could still easily fit this trope, especially considering Otis' final words to him.
- And the fact that Otis's voice cracks at this.
On the YMMV.Who Framed Roger Rabbit page, it mentioned that Judge Doom had a cane that served as a sheathed sword. Can someone take that part out? It gives no other purposethan the fact that Doom owns it.
edited 27th Jan '13 5:29:20 PM by AustinDR
Look at this mess from the Buffy section on Live Action TV.
- Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Angelus is one of these, particularly so when contrasted with every other vampire in both series. He's explicitly referenced numerous times as THE worst vampire ever. By way of examples, Spike and Drusilla had a genuinely loving relationship, Spike looked up to Angel as a friend and mentor, Darla was devoted to the Master and loved Angel (even though it's implied she knew he was incapable of loving her back), Wishverse Willow and Xander seemed to truly care for one another (notice how overjoyed evil Willow is when she finds Xander alive after seeing evil Xander killed), and the Master was rather fond of Darla (and, in the Wishverse, Xander and Willow) and mourned her death. In contrast, Angelus was utterly devoid of all human feeling (to the point that a demon sent to burn humanity from the Earth was incapable of harming him) and considered Mind Rape to be an art form. One can also see a strongly abusive streak to his relationships with Darla and Drusilla, who in turn practically worship him for such cruelties inflicted on them as much as anyone else. In his spinoff, he is also shown mercilessly manipulating Spike in a flashback.
- It puts things into perspective when the Master (an ancient and demonic vampire head of an order which worships Eldritch Abominations and seeks to bring about the end of the world) refers to Angelus as "the most vicious animal I have ever known".
- Similarly, the Judge was a demon who sought to kill anyone with a shred of humanity. Spike and Drusilla were nearly killed because of their love for one another and a side character was killed because he had a love for knowledge. Angelus, on the other hand, was deemed "clean of humanity". He had no redeeming values.
- Besides countless tortures, rapes, and murders for his own amusement, two incidents truly stick out...posing as a priest, he made an innocent, chaste girl his 'project,' where he slowly tempted her to evil, then brutally murdered her family. He hunted her down to a convent and slaughtered everyone in the day she was to take her vows before turning the now insane girl into a vampire to preserve his masterpiece. Second incident...Jenny Calendar. After brutally murdering her, he put her corpse in her love interest's bed...before sending him love notes, champagne, leaving flower petals strewn along to make it look like it'd be a romantic encounter...right until he found the body.
- Perhaps more than physical torture, though, Angelus enjoys psychologically tormenting people. In season 2 of Buffy, he stalks Buffy, never hurting her physically, but making her terrified for her own life and that of her mother and family. He turned Buffy's classmates and friends just so they could deliver a message when she came to stake them, so she would be absolutely sure that he was the one who killed them. He would also draw pictures of Buffy, and also Willow and her mom, while they were sleeping, and leaving them there to be found when the person woke up. The fact that he was a really good artist just made it a thousand times worse. Angelus also constantly taunted her about their former relationship and exactly what his emergence had entailed. And most of all, Angelus mocked her when she couldn't kill him, because he had Angel's face.
- Warren Mears, who, when introduced in season 5, seems to be just a pathetic loser-geek stereotype, but in season six, he slowly slides from that into a super-villain wannabe, into an "accidental" murderer who finds out that he likes killing women because it's the only time he feels like he has any power over them. His getting flayed alive by Dark Willow is cathartic as well as embarrassingly unsubtle.
- He came back in (comic book) Season 8, now skinless but alive thanks to Amy. And he's become even WORSE, calmly nuking a castle full of hundreds of Slayers, seemingly for kicks.
- Considering he only appeared in a single episode, the vampire Zachary Kralik did a remarkably good job in appearing as one of these. At this point in the show, vampires in general were seen as being a fairly low-level threat, but Kralik managed, partially through a quasi-Diabolus ex Machina and partially through his own utter hideousness, to be thoroughly terrifying and completely monstrous. It's impressive that even when given a Start of Darkness story involving the abuse he suffered from his mother, the viewer still cannot like him in the slightest.
- Then there's Adam. As if the fact that he's assembled from various robotic and demon parts combined with his first act of stabbing his creator in the back isn't a big enough clue that he's a bad guy, we are hit over the head with a clear message by what he does next.
- It puts things into perspective when the Master (an ancient and demonic vampire head of an order which worships Eldritch Abominations and seeks to bring about the end of the world) refers to Angelus as "the most vicious animal I have ever known".
- Season 7's Caleb, whom the insurmountably wicked First Evil considered his true disciple and who enjoyed asking the First to take the forms of the innocent women he killed, so he could do it all over again. And snapping several women's necks and ripping out Xander's eye.
- Caleb - unlike most of the other example mentioned here, he's completely human, presumably with a soul. It's suggested that he was completely evil even before he fell under the influence of the First and used to use the implicit trust people had in him as a priest to torture and kill women. Oh, and there was never any Freudian Excuse in sight.
- Three words about Caleb: scarier than übervamps.
- The First itself certainly qualifies, and not simply due to its name. It tortures people psychologically, driving them to either suicide, murder, or outright villainy; it panders to Caleb's misogynistic urges; it even gloats about how irredeemably evil it is. Even the Senior Partners at Wolfram and Hart were so worried about it, they sent Angel with a medallion that could stop its plans (granted, this was part of a GREATER plan by the Partners to make Angel their servant, but still...)
- Andrew Wells' brother Tucker probably counts. Although he was a one-off villain, he made a bad name for himself by training a pack of hellhounds to kill everyone at the 1999 Prom JUST BECAUSE a girl he liked wouldn't go out with him. In an interesting case of Real Life Writes the Plot, Tucker would have been the leader of the Nerd Trio in Season Six (with Warren and Jonathan as underlings) if his actor had been available. Odds are that HE would have been the one who did the evil deeds, while Warren may have become an Atoner (similar to Andrew). In other words, Warren only turned into a Complete Monster because Tucker decided to become a Karma Houdini wasn't available.
- Season 7's Caleb, whom the insurmountably wicked First Evil considered his true disciple and who enjoyed asking the First to take the forms of the innocent women he killed, so he could do it all over again. And snapping several women's necks and ripping out Xander's eye.
My personal opinion: compress Angelus and Caleb, maybe keep Tucker and cut all the rest. Zachary Kralik is clinically insane. He's wearing a straightjacket for gods' sake. Adam is made to be what he is, The First Evil doesn't really do much onscreen, and as for Warren...I get that he killed Tara, people. Really, I do. But that alone does not qualify him. In the show proper, he's an antisocial freak having a mental breakdown. Both the murders he commits are accidental, and he doesn't really seem to understand the ramifications of his mind control spell. In the comics, he loves Amy. In neither case does he qualify for this trope.
edited 27th Jan '13 6:02:05 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I think we ought snip Tucker. What he does isn't really...unusual. I mean, the Mayor alone overshadows him for horrible things to do at a school event.
Kralik I'm more iffy on...Kralik isn't unable to distinguish reality from fiction. He is insane in the same way Carnage/Cletus Cassidy is. His pill addiction isn't something that dominates his evil, it's just a physical urge for a drug. His fruedian excuse isn't much, given what he did to his mother and his cheerful acknowledgment of his...issues there
also worth noting he's wearing a straitjacket because the Watchers needed to keep him locked up till his fight with Buffy. The First Evil is also sketchy as it's...well...not a physicla being, but it does act through Caleb and others, manipulating
Was Adam made to be what he was, also? I don't think Maggie predicted him turning on her
edited 27th Jan '13 6:27:43 PM by Lightysnake
Adam was built to be the ultimate weapon. How much free will he has, and to what degree he's following faulty programming, is pretty up in the air, particularly given the component parts that went into him. I also think that, at the end of the day, both Angelus and Caleb overshadow him. Killing a kid isn't much when compared to those two serial killers, and he doesn't have their penchant for psychological torture. As for trying to end the world, everyone has done that on this show.
As for The First, Caleb honestly seems to outdo it in terms of sadism and onscreen cruelty. It's also Made of Evil, so there's that pesky free will issue again.
edited 27th Jan '13 6:46:59 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Hmm...not sure, Adam seemed pretty bad. The idea of free will seems answered for me as Adam was meant to be Maggie Walsh's 'son' who was figuring things out for himself and choosing to complete his actions. The overshadowing argument's a better one I think. Though Adam does some nasty stuff besides.
As for the First...hmm, willing to hear more there. It is Made of Evil though as the first evil ever
Most of what Adam got up to was the standard though. I don't think he ever really crosses the line the way that Angelus and Caleb do. What exactly are his standout actions?
As for The First, we can't be sure it has any moral agency, and perhaps more importantly, most of its actions are undertaken in the name of freeing itself, which is a pretty understandable motive.
edited 27th Jan '13 7:38:16 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
My most immediate impression from that page is that while he certainly counts all the same, the Angelus entry looks to be really heavy on the You Monster! stuff. Less about how bad he's said to be and more on how bad he's shown to be, please.
For Adam, the only thing I can remember is the murder of the boy and the revival of people as horrible zombies to kill their former comrades...nasty, but true, not sure if he passes the heinous standard.
Kralik, though...that guy was just vile, and the whole murder/cannibalism thing he had going on
Okay, here's a new Angelus. For a start
- Described by one of the most ancient, powerful and evil vampires as 'The most vicious creature he'd ever met,' Angelus set the standards for evil in the Buffyverse. For centuries, Angelus was the scourge of Europe with countless murders, rapes and torture to his name. Angelus kicked off a career in evil with the murders of his own family. Refusing to kill a longstanding nemesis vampire hunter, Angelus contented himself by murdering the man's wife and baby son, turning his young daughter into a vampire to force her own father to destroy her. His self-admitted masterpiece was seducing a pious, tormented girl with psychic powers, murdering her family and driving her to a convent before slaughtering everyone in the walls and turning her into a vampire to preserve his insane, broken work of art forever. When his soul is lost again, Angel delights in psychologically tormenting his former beloved Buffy's friends and family out of disgust for the human feeling Buffy gave him. The ultimate culmination of this was his brutal murder of Jenny Calendar, leaving the corpse for her lover Giles to find in a parody of a romantic rendezvous. Angelus's evil extended to his hope of awakening a demon to destroy all of humanity, solely for the fun involved.
edited 27th Jan '13 9:41:01 PM by Lightysnake
I'm not sure that Kralik really stacks with the other villains. Characters like Angelus or Caleb also display intense sadism, and aren't on antipsychotic medication for it. They also don't have the excuse of having been castrated by their mothers at the age of ten, which is a pretty serious Freudian Excuse.
@7605: Buffy The Vampire Slayer examples:
- Angelus: Keep but condense.
- Caleb: Keep but include the part that he has the Watcher society bombed and is looking to open a hellhole so the First Evil can cause the apocalypse.
- Warren: Cut. If he loves Amy then he doesn't qualify.
- Zachary Kralik: No cannibalism onscreen, all he does is psychologically torture Buffy's mom, kills a man and turns another into a vampire. I will admit he's very creepy for a Monster of the Week but being creepy doesn't mean he fits the trope. He fails the heinous standard, so cut.
- Adam: He doesn't do anything too heinous outside of killing that little boy. He wants to turn everyone the same as him self, into a hybrid demon cyborg, and, oddly enough, that doesn't seem too bad. He's not really a sadist either. From what I remember, he kills and experiments more for curiousity than for power or sadism. Add to that the ambiguity to how much is faulty programming and how much free will he has, and I agree with cutting him.
- The First Evil: No, I'd say the First Evil is more of a Generic Doomsday Villain. It gets just about as much characterization as you'd expect from the embodiement of all evil and, as Ambar says, it doesn't do that much onscreen.
- Tucker Wells: No, he's a small fry. Maybe if they had gone through with having him playing Warren's part he may have qualified but as is he really fails the heinous standard. He tries to unleash hellhounds on the prom because a girl rejected him but other Villains of the Week have done worse.
@7612: The Angelus rewrite looks very good. Since all of the crimes listed were shown through flashbacks, I'm fine with their inclusion. One thing though, technically the demon, Acathala, wasn't going to Kill All Humans. It was going to suck every person on the planet into a hell dimension to be tortured for eternity. Also you say masterpiece twice when talking about what he did to Drusilla.
edited 27th Jan '13 9:41:32 PM by OccasionalExister
Yes, but it's notable Kralik was a serial killer before he was a vampire where the worst you can say for Angelus was he was a worthless drunk.
And castrated by his mom? I missed that part...the thing that makes me think it's not much to excuse his behavior though is he cheerily acknowledges it during his session with Buffy's mom.
"Ten years old and she had the scissors. You wouldn't believe what she took with those..."
They don't flat out say what she did, but watch the scene and watch his eyes. In my mind, getting made into a eunuch by your mom at ten is a pretty solid Freudian Excuse, but even if he doesn't it still makes him better then the likes of Angelus or Caleb who are as bad as they are with no excuse whatsoever. And of course Kralik was a serial killer. He hates women and mothers in particular because of what his mother did to him.
edited 27th Jan '13 9:43:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Alright then. That's three votes (mine, lightysnake's, Occasional Exister's) to cut each of Kralik, Tucker, and Adam I think. It's also two votes (mine and Occasional Exister's) to cut Warren and The First Evil.
Just to make it clear, I have no issues with including Angelus' past actions. I'd just also like us to focus on the present, since I feel both are needed.
edited 27th Jan '13 10:19:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Just killing time on my iPad while I wait for my flight, so here are some short thoughts.
On Gideon from the Scott Pilgrim comics, I vote no on account of him not doing a lot (all of the other exes agreed to join the league of their own free will, while Gideon only created it as a drunk Craigslist as) and his worst crime being him killing Scott (who got better). He does have 6 exes on ice, but his exact words was that he was going to date them, so the sex slave thing is. More conjecture than text or subtext.
For Resident Evil:
- Nicholai never struck me as being this trope. He's mercenariy, but ultimately he works for people who do worse things for lesser reasons.
- Saddler is a cut due to offscreen villainy. Even the credits just show that the villagers being infected, but in concept art form and Saddler never being depicted in them.
- Simmons may be a keeper, since we don't see him start the outbreak in Tall Oaks but we do know for certain he was responsible for it. On the other hand compared to Wesker and Carla one city is nothing, and he is a Well Intenioned Extremist (he started the outbreak to kill The President before he could reveal what happened in Raccoon City, out of fear that the repercussions would destroy the global balance of power). By all accounts he does honestly believe in that.
- Carla is most certainly the woobie since she was manipulated into becoming essentially a complete body and mind clone of Ada Wong by someone she thought loved her, but really wanted Ada. Despite trying to destroy everything with the c-virus, she also brought the real Ada into things, which Ada interpreted as apart of her subconscious trying to stop herself.

RE: Resident Evil. Nicholai I could see qualifying, particularly given that he's entirely human and is still that bad. Nemesis is a brain controlled mentally handicapped monster and does not belong. I'm not familiar enough with the other examples.