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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#7551: Jan 26th 2013 at 8:49:27 AM

[up][up]As an example, it was decided that in Gundam 00 both Big Bad Ribbons Almark, and Psycho for Hire Ali Al-Saachez qualify. Why? They're two very different kinds of evil. Ribbons is a messianic madman with delusions of godhood, who has thousands of people killed in the name of his own egoistic desire to rule the world. Ali, conversely, is a rabid dog who will kill anybody and anything if the price is right, trains Child Soldiers by brainwashing them with religious faith, and burned down a whole country on Ribbons' orders. Neither one of them is objectively worse then the other, and the presentation is different enough for them to both qualify.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#7552: Jan 26th 2013 at 1:18:51 PM

P.S. Once the cleanup's done, anyone wanna tackle alphabetizing the lists like videogames?

Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#7553: Jan 26th 2013 at 4:04:28 PM

Somehow I don't think the cleanup will ever BE done. There are always people that either aren't aware of the rules or else blatantly ignore them.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7554: Jan 26th 2013 at 4:16:14 PM

We've made enormous headway though. Sooner or later, we'll arrive at a point where we're just vetting examples.

Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#7555: Jan 26th 2013 at 4:31:40 PM

To the Fairly Odd Parents example, that show is a huge Black Comedy (to the point where Domestic Abuse and stuff is common place). Everything in that show is Played for Laughs including said character. In another show maybe she would count but in this show she's merely a Jerkass.

As for the Snail Lady from Sponge Bob, no because he fails the heinous standard set by Mr. Krabs and we know he fails due to being inconsistent in his crimes.

This example from the Squidbillies needs to go as said character is usually just a Jerkass and the entry says "depending on the episode". "Early Cuyler routinely crosses the line from Jerk Ass to Complete Monster depending on the episode; the Christmas episode, wherein he kidnaps and holds Santa Claus hostage (and tortures the living shit out of him) is a glaring example. Freshly smoked reindeer jerky, anyone? "

Also this Super Jail entry is questionable. I like the show and the entry says the show has multiple Complete Monster. That line needs to be removed as almost all (if not all) the characters are Played for Laughs. Could someone give their opinion on the example. "Too many to name from Superjail But the unnamed inmate from the episode "Cold-Blooded" stands out by terrifying and brutally murdering just about every other inmate he comes across. We don't learn much about him, but he lives in a farmhouse with furniture made from the body parts of his victims, which may very well number in the thousands, and the first time we see him, he's wearing Jacknife's face."

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#7557: Jan 26th 2013 at 5:34:24 PM

The general rule of thumb is that if a character is ever Played for Laughs, they should be cut. We kept Brenda's husband from Family Guy precisely because he was horrible and never played for laughs, not once through the entire episode's run time. I don't know anything about any of the characters being mentioned, but a good way to present anyone from a comedic show is to prove that they are not supposed to be laughed at. (Laughter might be subjective, but from a storytelling standpoint, you should be able to tell if someone's crazy-evil scheme is treated with horror, or with bemusement.)

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#7558: Jan 26th 2013 at 6:02:52 PM

Someone re-added Gaston to Beauty and the Beast. I was going to remove him but first I wanna bring up Monsieur D'Arque, the asylum owner, who's listed because "he enjoyed the idea of locking away Maurice in an asylum".

Also, The Flight of Dragons examples don't describe much:

  • Ommadon and Bryagh
    • Perhaps Bryagh even more so, he actually ate some of his own kind! While they were still eggs!

edited 26th Jan '13 6:03:40 PM by TVRulezAgain

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#7559: Jan 26th 2013 at 6:28:27 PM

[up] D'Arque? Really? He barely even appears! He's definitely crooked, but he's also out-eviled by Gaston simply by virtue of having about 45 minutes less screentime. And even if he was more prominent (and incidentally, he is in the stage version), I'd argue he's still subordinate to Gaston because Gaston came up with the plan and is the one who hired him.

edited 26th Jan '13 6:30:53 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7560: Jan 26th 2013 at 6:33:38 PM

I mean, even if we bump up Monsieur D'Arque (subtle, Disney) for the Tony Jay Bonus, he falls short. He's a crooked bastard who is totally on board with blackmail and extortion, but...

Yeah. Let's delete Gastonand d'arque and wait for the point when someone decides to add Jafar next time.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#7561: Jan 26th 2013 at 6:37:00 PM

[up] Interestingly, Jay's performance as D'Arque was what got him cast as Frollo...

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#7562: Jan 26th 2013 at 6:43:09 PM

Any more votes for the Tales series examples.

They are:

Cumore, Ragou and Alexei: Kvar: Rodyle: Vharley: Tohma: Saleh: Zilva: Vaclav: Solon: Mars: Barbatos:

I'm changing my vote for Rodyle and Kvar to Keep after this new information and Vaclav to a keep also. The rest of my votes remain unchanged, however.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#7563: Jan 26th 2013 at 10:06:33 PM

Have we discussed Gideon Graves yet? His entry is really badly-written and I know for a fact the film version doesn't qualify as he's Played for Laughs and Hamminess. The movie does, however, omit the fact that in the comic he freezes his ex-girlfriends alive and keeps them as trophies; in the film it does seem he genuinely wanted to get back together with Ramona. Through mind control, but still. Could anyone more familiar with the comic tell me what he's like there? His entry needs a complete overhaul if nothing else.

edited 26th Jan '13 10:27:33 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7564: Jan 26th 2013 at 10:23:21 PM

What little I do remember from the comic is it's less get back together and more...freeze her to keep up with the others

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#7565: Jan 26th 2013 at 10:26:38 PM

[up] Yeah, I said that, but is he still played for amusement in any way?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7566: Jan 26th 2013 at 10:27:36 PM

I don't think so. The comic is a bit more serious in tone at points

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#7567: Jan 27th 2013 at 4:11:38 AM

Could we please split this discussion up? Too many examples being posted here, takes too long to find a response and the discussion is well over 300 pages long.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#7568: Jan 27th 2013 at 4:27:17 AM

How do we split this discussion up?

That said, a) there is a Google search and b) we ought to reply to others' examples, not just bring ours up.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#7569: Jan 27th 2013 at 6:28:36 AM

Maleficent anybody? I saw the discussion, and I think she qualifies. Gaston's right on the edge IMO.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#7570: Jan 27th 2013 at 6:58:21 AM

No, maleficent I recall was disqualified due to insufficient heinousness.

Without new arguments, she won't be discussed, especially since we don't know which work she's in.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#7571: Jan 27th 2013 at 7:45:14 AM

Film!Gideon definitely doesn't qualify. He's just a giant douche.

Comic!Gideon is a flat out sociopath who has kidnapped six women and has frozen them so that they will later become his sex slaves. He intends to do the same thing to Ramona, the female lead. He uses Ramona as a test subject for the Glow, which traps the victim in their head with their issues. Ramona is still trying to escape the effects of the Glow.

My write ups for the Tales of Vesperia examples:

Cumore, a captain of the Imperial Knights, is from a noble family and considers peasants to be completely beneath him. When he is placed in charge of the town of Heliord, he tricks peasants into volunteering for brutal labor with the promise of making them nobles. Cumore has no authority to ennoble people and he knows it. The labor these peasants undergo is so brutal that many of them die of exhaustion. Later, Cumore is sent to govern an oasis town to find a monster that lives in the desert. While in this position, he forces the peasants in the town to go into the desert to find the monster, knowing that this will likely kill them. The only remorse Cumore shows for his crimes is that they eventually lead a vigilante to kill him.

Ragou is the corrupt magistrate of Nor Harbor. Nor Harbor has been experiencing storms, making it hard for the people there to make a living off of the port commerce. To make things worse, Ragou harshly taxes his people. If someone cannot afford his taxes, Ragou sends his mercenaries to take their loved ones (including children) as collateral. He keeps these loved ones in a basement full of monsters. When the heroes confront him over this, he explains that he finds people getting eaten by monsters to be entertaining. Ragou offers only one hope to his people: if they kill a vicious monster and bring back its horn as proof, they will never have to pay taxes again. Of course, this monster would make short work of most people who try to fight it. The heroes eventually discover that the storms around Nor Harbor are created by a special Blastia in Ragou's mansion. He orchestrated the suffering of his people for his own amusement.

Alexei is the Commandant of the Imperial Knights. However, he betrays his Empire in an attempt to conquer the world. To accomplish this, Alexei orchestrates a genocide of the Entelexeia, the race that protects the world, so he can harvest the powerful apatheia from their corpses. Two of his minions are forced to obey him because he will shut off their artificial hearts at the first sign of defiance. He tortures Estelle, a member of the royal family he was sworn to serve, to force her to use her powers to activate Zaude, an ancient superweapon. Using Estelle for this purpose floods Zaphias, the capital city of the Empire, with deadly aer and vicious monsters.

edited 27th Jan '13 12:43:28 PM by lrrose

Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#7572: Jan 27th 2013 at 9:50:17 AM

Actually, I removed GGG from Scott Pilgrim's YMMV page because a) Zero Context, and b) I came here and asked, they said he didn't qualify. I kinda had to ask, having not seen the comic or the film.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#7573: Jan 27th 2013 at 10:02:44 AM

Gideon was discussed very briefly on this page. Only two tropers appeared to have given an opinion. Of the two, Nocturna didn't specify whether s/he was discussing the film or comic version and Footsteps, having not read the volume where Gideon appears, deferred to Nocturna.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7574: Jan 27th 2013 at 10:33:22 AM

I think I have to chime in for a positive keep on comic Gideon. Quirky as Scott Pilgrim can be, there's somethin about freezing women a your unwilling sex slaves and fucking up their heads for a long period after that kind of screams 'Complete Monster' to me

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#7575: Jan 27th 2013 at 10:43:07 AM

RE: Leage of Extraordinary Gentlemen:

Haven't read the comic, but from what I've heard, Nemo has some redeeming qualities, and so does Hyde, Griffin does count, and the Chinese doctor needs more elaboration or should be cut.

Gaston, no. D'arque? He sounds like Frollo, ergo he must qualify (I wonder if that was a reason he was added), also cut him.

Lightysnake: good point.

I want to bring up a Green Lantern TAS example:

  • Drusa, especially in her second appearance. She merely knocked Aya out the first time to hijack the ship. The second time, she took over her motor functions to use her as a puppet, then practically reveled in the fact that she was going to destroy Aya's emotions to make her compliant.

Drusa: No, fails in heinous standard to the other two villains (one destroys planets and the other destroyed a universe).

As the two of the examples have ongoing arcs, I don't want to discuss them yet, but Drusa only had a bit part, and it's listed, and it fails to compare to the other two.

edited 27th Jan '13 11:21:26 AM by DrPsyche


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