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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74976: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:00:32 PM

[up] Oh, that's MORE than enough (especially if there were no [tdown] votes).
Lighty: True, but the guy from the movie was also from a game (actually, so too was the novel guy). So, like I said earlier, [[shrug]]
BTW, Lighty, has any more of Dog Soldier been scanlated? I need more. Got any manga that's similar (and not TOO long)?

edited 6th Jan '17 3:03:12 PM by ACW

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#74977: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:06:44 PM

Yeah, Castor definitely doesn't count. Some of his stuff such as the Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil thing actually gets subverted later on, but he unambiguously loves Pollux.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#74978: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:16:24 PM

@doineedaname You're thinking of the Wild Force/Time Force crossover.

Ransik made a deal while he was a vagrant to release three Orgs from their statue containment in exchange for power. They grant him power while copying his Mutant DNA and becoming Mut Orgs because names are hard. They eventually went back in time to help Master Org destroy humanity, meaning it's team up time! This explains how Ransik got so powerful and its honestly one of Power Rangers' best crossovers.

[tdown][tdown][tdown][tdown][tdown][tdown]to Castor Troy. While there are many villains I think should be listed that are rejected, Troy loves his brother. Not to mention it's implied that he was shocked and guilty over good guy I can't remember the name of's son, but that can be debated like many things.

[down]YES! That's the one!

So that's 6 [tup] and 1[tdown] for Viktor Adler/Master Org. I wanna ask something, though. Like Adler was a good man before his romantic desires were ruined. And so was Darkseid, apparently. So my question is: when does "Loved someone that they can never be with" turn from being disqualifying to not?

edited 6th Jan '17 3:22:02 PM by PolarPhantom

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74979: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:21:20 PM

[up] Archer's son?
To answer your question: There's no clear answer, but when it gets to the point that you're willing to kill someone? Yeah, that's not disqualifying. As for Darkseid...was Suli ever mentioned after Heggra killed her?

edited 6th Jan '17 3:28:53 PM by ACW

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#74980: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:26:52 PM

Writeup for Dela:

  • Bork Dela, introduced in Immortal Remains, is a vicious, vampiric Serial Killer dubbed "the Headsman" who goes on a killing spree in Savannah, Georgia. He kills men and women alike — often in their own homes — leaving behind very little if any blood behind in the process and always beheading his victims. While investigating the series of murders, Dane discovers a woman whom Dela had raped. It's revealed that prior to his turning, Dela was said to have been an the one who introduced Hitler to the occult, and may have had a hand in his death. He had also been Vicente's bodyguard before Eben killed him. When Dane confronts him, he calls Dela out for his Fantastic Racism, and Dela retorts that Dane's sympathies for humans are like celebrating having once been apes. Later in the book, it's revealed that he has been supplying the rogue vampire Elder, Enok, with blood. Ax-Crazy and bloodthirsty even by vampire standards, he cares nothing for the Masquerade enforced by the Elders, his evil deeds cannot be even remotely justified by Transhuman Treachery or a need to survive.

edited 6th Jan '17 3:38:07 PM by Stellarvore

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74981: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:30:08 PM

[up] Please add to the Drafts page. Also, are both Bork Dela and Enok exclusive to Immortal Remains?

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#74982: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:32:05 PM

Yes they are. And I made a section for the spinoff novels made primarily for that reason.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74983: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:33:03 PM

Cool. And FYI, if you're using a single word (like Ghostapo), you have to use these: {{}}

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#74984: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:33:34 PM

When someone invalidates their redeeming quality or makes it clear they no longer care or get impacted? Then it stops. Adler murdering the woman he crushed on with no remorse and Darkseid just forgetting Suli and becoming...Darkseid?

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#74985: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:37:09 PM

[up][up] I try to make a habit of that, lol. Just not entirely used to it. Thanks for the heads up.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#74986: Jan 6th 2017 at 3:46:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scETbJ7KXK4

Here's a video that summarises Viktor Adler/Master Org's character arc.

One thing I learned from it is that Adler did have a motivation for destroying nature and humanity. Nature reminded him of his "betrayal".

Wow.

Anyway, I hope this helps people understand Adler and assists in their voting choices. I'll admit, I sometimes flip flop on him, but I do think by the time he decided to eat the seeds, there's nothing good left.

Also, Adler does often destroy Org Statues, which does not seem to be in the video. Both Toxica and Jindrax are horrified when he does it.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#74987: Jan 6th 2017 at 4:13:43 PM

edited 6th Jan '17 4:14:25 PM by Stellarvore

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#74988: Jan 6th 2017 at 4:23:01 PM

Here's my draft for Viktor Adler. I haven't done pot holes yet because I'm bad at those and need to learn. Also, I don't feel enough had passed for it to get posted and it would be nice to get feedback.

Viktor Adler was once a kind ecologist. After his crush married his colleague, he became jealous and paranoid. Eating the remains of Master Org, he used his new powers to murder the couple and attempted to murder their baby son. Hating nature because it reminded him of their “betrayal” he revived Master Org’s plot to destroy all non-Org life. Reacting to defeats badly, it was common to see him destroying Org statues in fits of rage, murdering dormant Orgs in temper tantrums. When Retinax didn’t recognise him he killed him and when Toxica and Jindrax discover his secret he brainwashes them. His worst act is slowly killing Cole’s friends while fighting Cole because he was the son of the couple he was jealous of, claiming he’d enjoy their suffering “even more than [his] parents!” Reviving the three General Orgs as Empty Shells bound to his will, he ate the Org Heart to make himself invincible, seeking to cover the world in black clouds that spawn Mooks to destroy humanity. A petty, jealous and cruel man who has long stripped himself of any good, Adler is one of Power Rangers' most evil humans and one of its darkest characters.

I included his "post death" actions, because it really does seem to me like it's still Adler from the footage above, and even if he's being influenced, it's just the same stuff he was doing anyway. If people object, I'll remove it. I also believe it's at 198 words, but if it needs cutting I can trim it.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#74989: Jan 6th 2017 at 4:35:26 PM

I object on the basis that there is no implication that it was Adler and it was really up in the air whether it was Adler the whole time after his death or if Adler was a Disk-One Final Boss that died after The Master's Last Stand and was bodyjacked by the true Master Org. And we have seen a lot of evil entities and parasites that maintain the memories and personalities of dead characters they possess.

If there is a consensual objection, I propose this rewrite:

  • Viktor Adler was once a kind ecologist. After his crush married his colleague, he became jealous and paranoid. Eating the remains of Master Org, he used his new powers to murder the couple and attempted to murder their baby son. Hating nature because it reminded him of their “betrayal” he revived Master Org’s plot to destroy all non-Org life. Reacting to defeats badly, it was common to see him destroying Org statues in fits of rage, murdering dormant Orgs in temper tantrums. When Retinax didn’t recognise him he killed him and when Toxica and Jindrax discover his secret he brainwashes them. His most heinous act is slowly killing Cole’s friends while fighting Cole because he was the son of the couple he was jealous of, claiming he’d enjoy their suffering “even more than [his] parents!” A petty, jealous and cruel man who has long stripped himself of any good, Adler, despite being fully taken over by the original Master Org halfway through the series after his death at the hands of Mandilok, is one of Power Rangers' most evil humans and one of its darkest characters.

edited 6th Jan '17 4:47:22 PM by xie323

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#74991: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:01:26 PM

Okay I may have found a potential candidate, but there a bit unorthodox. Simply put, can someone count if we never see them (cause they died over a hundred years before the story is set), yet we see how they did what they did, the consequences of there crimes, hear a lot about them, things they left over that happen in the present and see an shody (yet quite faithful) adapation of there most infamous crimes?

Or is this something I would have to propose to tell either way?

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#74992: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:12:31 PM

This is a bit iffy, because IIRC we disqualified an Uncharted series character for just that.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#74993: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:17:26 PM

Yeah, I remembered someone was disqualified for just that, still I remember someone else did manage to qualify despite never appearing. Really I'm okay if he doesn't count, it might mean there are no other candidates in a series where it feels there should be one though.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#74994: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:18:03 PM

Just say who it is. This constant coyness over just saying who's being considered needs to end.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#74995: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:21:20 PM

Wasn't Adler voted down a long time ago?

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#74996: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:22:38 PM

[up] Yes. He was discussed multiple times before now. First time was one page 554-3 I think. Then he was discussed again somewhere in the 800s, and then again in the 1500s, and another time in the 24 or 2500s where the proposal was I believe hit by the Troll Post Crusher.

edited 6th Jan '17 5:30:14 PM by doineedaname

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#74997: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:27:00 PM

[up][up][up]Okay, I'll have to wait till next Wednesday though.

Sorry about being a bit premature, I just wanted an idea whether it was a good idea or not.

edited 6th Jan '17 5:29:18 PM by MGD107

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#74998: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:31:04 PM

Adler sounds a yea. Troy on the other hand is a definite no... not sure how he was ever seriously considered in lieu of his one really apparent redeeming quality.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#74999: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:34:31 PM

@HT and doineedaname: I thought that was the other Master Org.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#75000: Jan 6th 2017 at 5:43:42 PM

[up] No, its the one we're discussing right now. The whole "murder a women he claimed to have loved because she married someone else" and his name really having been Adler were both brought up there.


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