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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#74526: Dec 30th 2016 at 10:53:40 AM

[tup] Krennic

What do you think is better between updating Pazuzu's current write up (Exorcist 1 is canon to the show, Exorcist 2 isn't, not sure about Exorcist 3 but I'd say it's not incompatible) or making a new one based on his actions on the show?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74528: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:07:44 AM

[up][up] I say new one.
Hmm, I'll give Krennic a [tup], as his actions in Catalyst seem bad enough (that's on my to-read list). From the film alone I say [tdown].
Incidentally, does Tarkin have any additional notable acts in Catalyst?

edited 30th Dec '16 11:07:51 AM by ACW

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#74529: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:13:51 AM

So after some time I was able to get an effortpost out for Gundam: The Origin's version of Kycilia Zabi. With all of the manga out in the west, I'm surprised Ambar hasn't proposed this effortpost sooner.

For those who don't know Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin is a manga written and illustrated by Yoshikazu Yasuhiko. It is a retelling of the story from the 1979 anime television series Mobile Suit Gundam, of which Yasuhiko was the original character designer. It changes the characterization of some of the characters and is overall Darker and Edgier. Perhaps one of the most infamous changes is the Adaptational Villainy of Kycilia Zabi. Kycilia Zabi was not a pleasant person in the anime itself, however she had a few redeeming factors in that she genuinely loved her father and killed Gihren for the crime of patricide. The manga on the other hand........is a whole different story.

What does she do in the manga that was worse?

In the prequel volumes(volumes 5-7) she first appealed helping the Deikuns flee to Jimba Ral's house on Side 3 after Zeon Deikun's death. However her actions were criticized by her brother Saslo Zabi, whom feared that the Deikun children could take revenge one day and slaps her. Kycilia's response was to kill Saslo in a car bomb during Deikun's funeral and blame Jimba Ral. She then takes the Deikuns(Casval, Sayla and their mom) away from the Rals with a mob of Degwin supporters.

However Ramba and Crowley gets the Deikuns away from the Zabis and to earth. In response Kycilia sends assassins to Jimba's residence on earth, which borders a refugee camp. They actually kill not only Jimba Ral, but many of the doctors and refugees there "to make an example". As a result of this the Deikun are taken to Side 5. Nevertheless Jimba manages to turn Casval into a Tyke-Bomb out for revenge against the Zabis, and he of course becomes iconic Gundam antagonist Char Aznable.

Kycilia's next attempt to kill Casval was when he leaves Side 5 to take revenge on the Zabis by joining the Zeon academy to get close to them. Her agents plant a bomb on the ship that would have taken Casval to Side 3 and the bomb explodes, killing all the passengers on board....

Except Casval dosent die. Because he never went onboard the ship. Before Casval was supposed to go onboard the ship he met a boy named Char Aznable, who was an ardent Zabi supporter, that looked identical to him. Both near identical boys were booked to leave on the same flight, but an antique pistol and fake explosives (actually a box of yōkan) were found in Char's bag (almost certainly planted by Casval). Not wanting to miss the entrance exam, Char readily accepted Casval's suggestion to swap clothes in the restroom. Char boarded the ship under the name Édouard Mass, while Casval, under the name Char Aznable was detained overnight. Shortly after the departure, an explosive planted by Kycilia Zabi's agents explodes and destroyed the ship, killing everyone aboard. Édouard Mass was listed among the dead and Casval takes on the name Char and returned to Side 3 in U.C. 0071, intent upon entering the Zeon Military Academy.

In the main story itself, Kycilia never does anything major, aside from the operations she and M'Quve run on earth such the Adzam project until Volume 9, where she discusses with Char whether to send forces to assist Dolzle at the battle of Solomon. Char reveals he knows of the backstabbing and power plays behind the scenes and tells Kycilia to leave Dolzle there to die so she could save up forces for a hypothetical civil war with Gihren. She agrees and we don't see any remorse on her part.

Perhaps the biggest change to the canon is that we see she never really loved her father Degwin at all. Fearful of Gihren intentions after he discusses his plans for the Solar Ray, Degwin tells Kycilia to stop Gihren. How does Kycilia do it? Degwin's plan was to first overthrow Gihren and sue for peace with the Federation. Kycilia tells Degwin they need the peace right away and tells Degwin to bring his flagship out to meet Revil. And then she leaks the coordinates of the location where Degwin was to meet with Revil to Gihren! So essentially she sent out her father to die, fully knowing what would happen once Gihren got word of the location, so she could have a pretext for killing Gihren and taking power all for herself.

....and the rest is history and I won't really go over her fate at A Baoa Qu.

Any Mitigating Factors?

Kycilia Zabi in the Origin Manga lacks all of the mitigating factors her canon/anime counterpart has. While many of the characters on the Zeon side are seen as more villainous, they retain their redeeming qualities(ie: Char is a more violent character, but his redeeming qualities are left intact and he also assumes the role of Quattro Bajeena in Zeta Gundam: Define, which was a sequel to The Origin, Dolzle is more of a Blood Knight, but his A Father to His Men qualities, his love for his siblings, his wife and Minerva are left intact. Garma is a more darker character, but his love for his earth-born fiancee is left intact and he displays actual shock and disgust at Operation British, Zeon Deikun himself is a painted less as a benevolent visionary whose ideology was twisted by the Zabis and arguably by his son himself come CCA and more as a revolutionary warmonger that wanted to kick start a major war that Side 3 would have lost and whose ideology actually inspired Gihren, but genuinely loved his wife and children and dosen't do much except die from Degwin's poisoning).

Degwin and M'Quve actually gets Adaptational Heroism. The former kills Deikun because of fear his ideology and belligerence will drive Side 3 to ruin, and the latter while still a Smug Snake who violates the Nuclear Weapons Taboo at the Battle of Odessa, subsequently refuses Gihren's orders to launch even more nukes when it becomes clear Zeon is losing and personally leads an MS squad in his Gyan to clear a path for his forces to retreat and then self-destructing in the middle of a flotilla of Federation battleships to keep them from shooting his men down as they fly back into space.

However this is not the case with Kycilia's incarnation in the Origin. She shares no love for any of her siblings, she got Saslo Zabi killed out of spite because he hit her and left Dozle to die on Char's advice so she could save her forces for a confrontation with Gihren and did not display any regrets for this.

As for her father? The manga leads us to believe she would have the same redeeming qualities her anime/canon counterpart had but completely subverts it. In Volume 7, a prequel focusing on the battle of Loum, Degwin, appalled by Gihren's actions in Operation British and the One Week Battle, asks Kycilia to stop him. Kycilia agrees, but when the story rolls to the final arc at A Baoa Qu, we learn that Kycilia of course, as I mentioned, sets up the events that led up to Degwin's death by telling Degwin to meet Revil for the ceasefire and then leaking the coordinates of the Great Degwin and the Federation fleet to Gihren. So it's clear she only wanted the power for herself.

Also there is a scene in Volume 7 that depicts the various Zabi's reactions to Gihren's actions in Operation British, Garma and Degwin were appalled, but Kycilia just gives a smirk, so while she dosent have the same amount of blood on her hands, she gives tacit approval to these actions.

Heinousness Standard?

A concern some may have is that Gihren has a higher body count in both the anime and the Origin manga, being the instigator of the One Year War, as well as the destruction of Side 5 and the Operation British Colony Drop, which all wiped out half of humanity. However Gihren is the Supreme Commander of Zeon so he has much more resources than Kycilia and thus he's operating on a different level of heinousness.

From what Kycilia has been able to do with the amount of resources she had, we can see that she dosent mind putting civilians at risk such as when her agents killed everyone at the Refugee camp at Jimba Ral's residence and got the passenger transport shot down without concern for civilians.

Also as Gundam Origin is in a different continuity from the anime itself, we don't see anyone with similar resources or even less resources do equally heinous things. So I feel she passes this criteria.

Verdict:

[tup] to Kycilia Zabi's Gundam: The Origin incarnation.

Also seeing that you've all discussed Krennic already, [tup] based on his actions in both the novel and the film itself. I watched the movie itself and he dosen't stand out if we solely just focus on the film itself(his actions in the film are generic bad guy stuff and his worst crime, the blowing up of Jeddah was sanctioned by Tarkin). However the book expands on a lot of actions, which was why I said I got Eredin vibes(or rather, Durge vibes as Durge was a generic bad guy in Tatarkovsky's Clone Wars, but made much worse in the comics) from what the effortpost would be like in that the character is much worse when side materials are factored in.

And in regards to Gundam: The Origin. No, Gihren dosen't need another effortpost as his crimes in the manga are word for word his crimes in the anime itself. He's still as bad as he is in canon through. The only real differences are that he requested more nukes to be fired by M'Quve at Odessa, but that isn't enough for an entry by itself. He also is a genuine believer in Zeon Deikun's Newtype philosophy(whereas in the anime it is implied he's only using Master Race rhetoric to solidify his own power), but that isn't a disqualifying quality in itself as we have qualified Knight Templar characters that have done really heinous things before even if they genuinely believed their ideology was in the right. Nevertheless, he's not getting a entry because dosen't do much different that his anime counterpart does to warrant a separate effortpost.

edited 30th Dec '16 12:25:07 PM by xie323

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#74530: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:25:03 AM

Yes to Pazuzu. However, a more reluctant yes to Krennic who definitely isn't heinous enough in the movie, but enough crimes in Catalyst to push him into this trope. However it's reluctant because the heinous standard of Star Wars is actually pretty high for a Disney Franchise. Let's just say Tarkin, Palpatine, and that one spinoff villain who's name escapes me (he's a Sith) set the bar so high that I wouldn't expect anyone to match them. Even so, I think Krennic does just enough to be close considering his resources.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#74531: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:26:41 AM

@74530

Was it Vitiate? Actually he's a non-factor here because he's no longer canon.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#74532: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:28:06 AM

I'm glad we got away from the off topic stuff, despite still enjoying it myself. I feel it's important that this forum remain a little focused, since we're doing a service for our site. One thing I like to do is go off topic but then include something on topic in the same post.

Case in point.

I was doubting Krennic would count, based on the film alone. But then I thought of the prequel novel and decided to wait until Lighty's effort post. If the man ever had a heart, it is certainly gone by now.

So... [tup] to Krennic. If someone worse comes along (and there probably will) we can always just take him down.

Also, [tup] to adding mention of Tarkin's actions to his entry. Jedha's probably not too important, but Scarif demonstrates both Bad Boss and We Have Reserves in addition to his signature coldness.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#74533: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:31:59 AM

I've been waiting to [tup] Krennic for two weeks. Glad to see he might make the cut.

I was at first nervous about his heinousness when compared to the likes of Tarkin and The Emperor. But the novel showed that he's just as bad as those two.

It's Spooky Month!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74534: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:35:39 AM

[tup] Manga!Kycilia. Does Manga!Gihren need a writeup, or does he not do anything of note?

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#74535: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:36:10 AM

He dosen't do anything different.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#74537: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:36:40 AM

Manga Kycilia is a yea. If she didn't have redeeming qualities in the original she'd have counted

Gihren isn't different enough from the manga to warrant his own entry.

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#74538: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:40:47 AM

I may have a proposal, but want to ask first, what exactly constitutes being "too edgy" to qualify? I ask because we cut the guys from Human Centipede and A Serbian Film but other similarly obscene works like Cannibal Holocaust have entries that are allowed to remain. I'm not protesting the cutting/inclusion of any of those, just trying to get clarification lest I end up wasting your guys' time.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#74539: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:42:28 AM

Yes it's Vitiate. But since he's no longer canon, Tarkin and Sidious remain the most heinous characters in Star Wars.

Too edgy basically means it's meant to disturb you and nothing else. If Harry Potter had sentient Flesh eating slugs that attach to your skin and suck the life out, that's not edgy for the sake of edgy, but a living body mutating into a scorpion or something, there's no given explanation for it, and it's just there to repulse, THAT is what we mean. Like all those dark gory MLP fics.

edited 30th Dec '16 11:48:45 AM by Klavice

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#74540: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:46:05 AM

[tup]Origins!Kycilia.

God, Origin sounds like it's an edgy garbage fire.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#74541: Dec 30th 2016 at 11:54:51 AM

Origin is honestly terrific.

You can't expect less from Yoshikazu Yasuhiko doing the manga. It's a fantastic, fantastic series.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#74542: Dec 30th 2016 at 12:04:21 PM

[tup] Pazuzu, Krenic, General, and Origins! Kycilia

edited 30th Dec '16 12:04:37 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#74543: Dec 30th 2016 at 12:37:01 PM

[tup] Krennic and Origins!Kycilia.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#74544: Dec 30th 2016 at 1:06:49 PM

Before I dive headlong into the longest effort post I've ever done, I want confirmation on something first. We've talked at length before on whether to begin discussion on characters who have uncompleted arcs and where exactly it can be determined on whether or not they are ready for discussion.

The character in question is the seventh RuneScape candidate, the Mahjarrat Sliske. He was recently killed off in the finale of what was hyped up as being his quest series, but there is a bit of a caveat. Right before his death in battle against the player, he managed to transfer of piece of his soul into them. This piece is enough for Sliske to perform Grand Theft Me for a very brief period of time but enough to force the player to lie to someone's face. The quest was considered the finale to his quest series which ran the span of 2016 and he was a major player for nearly a decade now. He is considered dead in universe, but out of universe we know a bit of him still remains. His arc is essentially over for now and he does enough to easily count now, but I'm still unsure. What do you guys think?

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#74545: Dec 30th 2016 at 1:09:13 PM

I'm good on you proposing him

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#74546: Dec 30th 2016 at 1:18:04 PM

[up][up] Go for it. We can always add/remove/change later/

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#74547: Dec 30th 2016 at 1:27:41 PM

I ask again: is it better updating Pazuzu's current write up or making a new one based only on his actions on the show?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#74548: Dec 30th 2016 at 1:31:06 PM

[tup] Pazuzu, Krennic and Kycilia.

@rosewood:A word is too edgy if it's obscenity at the expense of a plot. For example, Cannibal Holocaust is obscene, but it has an actual story and social commentary. Our of curiosity, what's the work you're thinking of?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013

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