During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Gavin and Nerat.
Do we have enough votes to cut Seth and the Mothra guy?
Any more thoughts about this
?
Okay...at last, the final villain Mortal Kombat, and arguably the biggest bad of the setting. I give you...Shinnok.
Who Is He?
Long, long ago, Shinnok was one of the Elder Gods who stood alongside his brethren when they created the realms. However, as he watched the new realms, Shinnok began to hunger for power. Betraying the Elder Gods, Shinnok sought to destroy Earthrealm and devour the energies of all that lived within. Unable to penetrate into Earthrealm without alerting his fellow Gods, Shinnok crafted a special amulet to allow him to slip past dimensional barriers without alerting his brethren. However, when he attacked Earthrealm, the Thunder God Raiden fought back, and Shinnok waged a brutal war, forcing Raiden to choose between the extinction of Earthrealm's races or ceding control to Shinnok's whims.
The Elder Gods finally realized what their wayward brother was up to and interceded. Shinnok, no match for them at once, was defeated, stripped of his Amulet and banished to the Netherrealm where the Netherrealm's lord Lucifer was entrusted with Shinnok's captivity. Found by Quan Chi, Shinnok swore to make the sorcerer powerful beyond his dreams. Assisted by Quan Chi, Shinnok overthrew Lucifer and made the Netherrealm into a nightmare, drawing the darkest of souls to the realm to serve in his army. Briefly foiled by the first Sub-Zero Bi-Han, Shinnok bided his time until Shao Kahn was defeated...before invading Edenia with the help of a traitor. Shinnok killed most of Earthrealm's protector Gods and launched his invasion of earthrealm. However, Quan Chi was defeated by Scorpion and Shinnok was bested by Earthrealm's champion Liu Kang, banished back to the Netherrealm.
Languishing there, Shinnok would eventually manipulate the half-god brothers Daegon and Taven, helping the former murder his parents and guiding the former in a whole quest of evil and darkness...before he informed everyone about the true prize of Armageddon, leading to an apocalyptic battle that would claim Shinnok's life when Shao Kahn claimed the power of Blaze.
New Timeline!
So, Shinnok has Quan Chi manipulate Shao Kahn's invasion of Earthrealm, ending with most of the realm's protectors dead and enslaved to Quan Chi. Two years later, Shinnok launches his own invasion with demons massacring those they find. Engaging the gods, Shinnok wins, torturing several heroes along the way, before attempting to kill Sonya Blade in front of Johnny Cage...Cage, however, unlocks a secret power and defeats Shinnok, resulting in his banishment. Twenty years of peace pass, Johnny and Sonya marry and have a daughter (and divorce)...after the death of Quan Chi, Shinnok is released again and decides "where was I? Oh, right, genocide." before he decides to absorb the power of the Jinsei: earth's guardian force.
Oh, and he also tortures Bo Rai Cho, one of the earth warriors to death in front of Raiden, just to torment the Thunder God. He has Johnny Cage captured and his servant D'Vorah torture him as well by injecting her insect tongue into him, before capturing and torturing Raiden as well, absorbing the power of the Jinsei and entering a new demonic form, corrupting earth and blanketing it in a red sky. Shinnok reveals his true plans: to annihilate all that lives on earth, and overthrow the Elder Gods, ending all life in the universe. Shinnok engages Johnny and Sonya's daughter Cassie and, poised to kill her, Johnny cage jumps in front to take the hit. Shinnok proceeds to ry to slowly roast him alive in front of Cassie, who unlocks HER true power and engages Shinnok, defeating hi.
To save Earthrealm, Raiden absorbs Shinnok's power and purifies the Jinsei of Shinnok's corruption....though, seemingly at cost of corrupting Raiden himself, as he is much darker after doing this and vows that he will not protect Earthrealm by brutally eliminating all threats. No more Mr. Nice Thunder God...
And to prove it, he decapitates Shinnok and throws his still-living head into the Netherrealm. Shinnok is condemned to a fate worse than death: alive, but trapped as severed head. Forever.
Mitigating Qualities?
No. Shinnok is basically MK's equivalent of Satan and has no real loyalties to anyone. He'll callously throw away his followers on a whim and none of them are exempt from his destructive intentions. In Quan Chi's MK 4 ending, he does actually say he'll spare Quan Chi for his loyal alone of everyone else in the universe, but MK 9's ending has him try to betray Quan Chi when he worries he's growing too strong. Canonically, though, he dismisses Quan Chi's death without batting an eye and comments "real shame, that" in a nutshell. before returning to his plans.
Oh, and in Reptile's non-canon ending, Shinnok had promised to restore Reptile's species who were exterminated by a combo of Shinnok and Shao Kahn (Reptile only aware of the latter). when Reptile has the temerity to ask Shinnok to honor his end of the bargain, Shinnok laughs "i am not a God of my word" and blows Reptile's head up. Non-canon, but still, what a prick.
Heinous Standard?
Oh god, yes. The others are conquerors. Shinnok is an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to perform a genocide on everything, and has the highest attempted bodycount. He's one of the strongest beings in MK and stands out for his tier. In one of his obviously non-canon endings, he even reawakens the One Being, the original evil God in MK, and destroys all existence before devouring the Elder Gods as Shinnok watches with satisfaction.
So yeah, easy pass on this one.
Conclusion? The final keeper of MK
@ACW: Dare not we forget Tom Riddle, who named the appropriate trope in the first place?
I have one other today I'm less sure of, but...I'd like to submit this one for discussion.
The Work?
The work is called Attack on Titan. Now, the series is set within a massive area enclosed within three massive walls...we're talking country-sized here. The reason? Well...a long time ago, the Titans appeared...giants who prey exclusively on humans. To escape, humanity erected the walls, keeping the Titan out...until one day, a Titan bigger than any other appears nd shatters the first wall, allowing the titans in...this Colossal Titan vanishes just as mysterious, and our hero Eren Yeager witnesses his mother devoured by a titan. Years later, Eren has become a soldier, devoting himself to destroying the Titans and reclaiming humanity...when the Colossal Titan reappears and shatters the second wall. Eren is seemingly devoured by a Titan...but awakens a mysterious power to transform into one himself. Enter a story of conspiracy, ancient grudges and a fight for humanity's survival, as there are other 'Titan Shifters' from another faction hidden within the walls...
Now, major spoilers follow so LAST CHANCE
Still here? Okay then. it turns out that humanity is not extinct. The series has been taking place on a relatively small island compared to gigantic continents that are far more technologically advanced. Eren's father, Grisha Yeager came from outside the walls. Long ago, the nation of Eldia harnessed the power of the Titans, but was eventually subdued by the nation of Marley. The Eldians have lived, ever since, subjugated by the Marleyans in ghettos, subjected to persecution and discrimination...
Who Is He?
Sergeant Major Gross is a military officer of Marley, encountered when Grisha sneaks out of the Marley ghetto with his little sister Fay to see the airships in a field nearby. Unfortunately...Gross catches them, and it's quite forbidden for Eldians to be outside without permission..
What's He Done?
Gross decides to have the children beaten. Grisha requests to take Fay's punishment as well, which Gross allows, having him badly brutalized before offering to 'take Fay home' and leading her off. His second-in-command, Kruger, tells Grisha to stay and watch the airships for a time anyways, as he came all this way.
It turns out? Gross murders Fay. In fact, he doesn't just murder her: he feeds her to his dogs and has his own sons watch to make them realize the way the world works, before he wrings an apology out of Grisha's family for them defying the law. Grisha is disgusted with his own father's timidity and eventually founds a resistance group as he grows up. Marrying a woman named Dina who is of the royal bloodline of the Eldians, Grisha fathers a son named Zeke who he enters into a Marleyan program for young warriors with intentions of Zeke becoming a spy. Instead, zeke betrays his own family and sells out the resistance movement. In present, Zeke is the most visible antagonist, being one of the Titan shifters and leading an attack on the walls, but I digress.
It turns out the one in charge of dealing with Eldians and criminals? Is Gross again, who recognizes Eren...and the punishment he's using is godawful. People are released to 'Paradise' there...the name of the island the story is set on. Gross has the resistance members taken to a steep hill, with the knowledge they're going to be turned into Titans, and released to wander the land outside the walls, devouring anyone they come across until they're put down eventually. The only way a Titan can ever escape this is to eat another Titan Shifter, at which point they gain their power. Unfortunately, once you become a shifter, it shortens your life to 12 years remaining to you.
Gross , having tortured Grisha a bit physically and mentally, then 'releases' one resistance members, kicking him down the hill and telling him to run to reach the walls...before he has the others injected with the Titan serum, including Grisha's wife Dina, turning them into monstrous titans...and reveals he released the first guy to watch the Titans run him down and eat him alive. Before he can do the same to Grisha, who he's saved for last? Gross remembers Grisha and decides to turn the only other remaining resistance member into a small titan and throw Grisha to him so they can 'fight' in an entertaining show.
Gross then reveals his true wish? the eradication of the Eldians, likening them to rats who need to be exterminated. Before he can throw Grisha to the small Titan...Kruger interferes and throws Gross down instead, revealing himself as the secret leader of the resistance 'The Owl'. Gross is seized and the Titan proceeds to bite his face off as Kruger attacks and destroys the remaining soldiers...revealing he is a Titan shifter himself, and that his life is coming to an end. His first name: Eren. His plan, to let Grisha turn into a Titan, eat him, gain his powers and infiltrate the walls...and that's where our prequel leaves.
Mitigating Qualities?
Alone of all the villains thus far? Gross has none, which is kind of impressive. We don't spend long with the guy (two chapters), but Gross expounds a LOT on his view of the world, humanity, etc. He believes that peace is abnormal and war and eradication are the proper states of humankind. He believes the Eldians to be 'rats' who deserve to be exterminated and frequently mocks his victims with cruelty no other soldier displays. Now, Gross does mention he has a family, but fed Fay (an eight year old little girl who did nothing wrong) to his dogs and forced his sons to watch so they could learn 'how the world works'...when Grisha asks him if his heart would ache if he saw his own children suffer the same, Gross just asks "how could it?" because such an act would be the natural state of mankind. So, no, can't see anything redeeming here.
Heinous Standard?
Here's my toughest spot. AOT is fucking dark...now, the Titans are running around eating people, but they're entirely mindless creatures and mostly victims of people like Gross who apparently routinely turns Eldians into Titans. Being a Titan is described by a former Titan who became a shifter as an awful nightmare that won't end. It's a monstrous fate and given there are only nine types of shifter powers, your odds of ever escaping this are basically nil.
The human villains consist of four other Titan shifters known to us...one being the Colossal Titan himself, and his two accomplices (And Zeke), who are attempting to destroy the Eldians in the walls and let the Titans in to destroy them, among other casualties they cause directly. Thing is? They're kids who have been drafted into a war, and the guilt of what they've done is eating them all alive to the point that their sanity has suffered enormously. They care about one another, and grew to care about their friends in the Walls. None of them can count, for obvious reasons. Zeke is a potential for the future as he's vicious, sadistic, cruel and cares nothing for his allies (even threatening to have them eaten by another Titan should they fail him), but we haven't seen enough of him in action yet.
The only other villains are the nobility in the Walls, including the Military Police who enforce the status quo via murder and torture. Nobody counts here either, and nobody does anything as nasty as Gross. The only potential was Kenny Ackerman, "The Ripper", but his crimes are largely revealed to have been self defense (murdering military police who'd been hunting him for his bloodline) and he had redeeming qualities and standards. He was willing to possibly kill a child after killing her mother (it's debatable if he would've gone through with the former) but again, Gross is way worse.
Gross is...just a rank and file officer. Just a cog in the machine who goes well out of his way to be horrible as possible. He absolutely loves his job of brutalizing Eldians, wants to wipe them out eventually, and what he did to fay was completely and utterly unnecessary as she did, again 'nothing wrong whatsoever beyond go with her brother to see some zeppelins. Kenny is a no-nonsense killer who'll get his job over with quick. Gross is gleefully mocking and tormenting the Eldians he deals with, injecting Grisha's wife in front of him and laughing how she was probably having an affair with the poor man he released to be chased by the titans when the now Titan Dina runs after him. And then there's the "don't turn Grisha, just turn the other guy into a small titan and watch him die slow." and, again, his goal being the utter eradication of the Eldians.
Oh, and he says clearly about the Titan thing? It's fun watching humans be eaten by monsters. That's his motive there.
He's not a titan shifter, a king, a superpowered warrior or anything. Just a mid-tier, fat little guy who's as awful as he can possibly be in his spot in the world and goes out of his way for that.
Conclusion?
I say keep.
edited 13th Dec '16 8:05:40 AM by Lightysnake
Shinnok.
Gross...definitely lives up to his name. I give him a yes.
edited 13th Dec '16 8:13:11 AM by MiraiYuji
Shinnok and Gross.
Out of curiosity: Has AOT revealed the ultimate Greater Scope Villain yet?
edited 13th Dec '16 8:33:41 AM by ACW

Nerat and Gavin look like keeps to me. Heh, that'll be the second example with Gavin in their name. (Unless I'm missing someone)
edited 13th Dec '16 1:14:22 AM by Klavice