During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Karza. Congratulations, Ravok, you found somebody who tops Galbraith and Torquemada.
So, it's morning of the 18th where I am, so allow me to present my thoughts on Doctor Strange as the person who reserved discussion for it.
Regrettably, nobody counts. Kaecilius certainly has some vile deeds on his hands and his master plan - assimilating Earth into the Dark Dimension - is heinous enough, but he doesn't count for two major reasons. The first being Kaecilius has some genuinely tragic qualities about him; Kaecilius turned to the Ancient One's guidance after he lost his loved ones and betrayed her in a fury once it became clear she couldn't bring them back, something he's still markedly bitter about as shown in their confrontation. Secondly, Kaecilius is a Well-Intentioned Extremist; he sincerely believes that pushing the Earth into the Dark Dimension and making everyone immortal in the process is a good thing. So, Kaecilius is a pretty clear no.
As for Dormammu himself... his plan blows every other established scheme in the MCU out of the water when it comes to sheer scale (plunging the entire multiverse into eternal torment within the Dark Dimension), murders Strange in a variety of hideously cruel ways over and over within the Dark Dimension, and drags Kaecilius and his zealots into eternal torment once he's cheated out of his scheme. He has nary a redeeming quality on-screen. But regrettably? Dormammu suffers from "underdeveloped MCU villain-itis" that's disqualified other characters in the past, becomes a Generic Doomsday Villain, and fails to count. As depicted on-screen, Dormammu is less a character and more an eldritch force. He has a whopping two minutes of screentime, he's got zilch in terms of personality, and there's no established reason for what he does whatsoever. So, unfortunately, we're leaving this film with no qualifiers.
However, nothing happens to Dormammu proper, so there might be a slim chance at him counting in the future if he gets more characterization through ancillary materials or future MCU films. Keep your hopes up.
Any contention on this, or have I summed up everyone's thoughts?
edited 18th Nov '16 3:29:08 AM by Scraggle
Karza.
So now that it's been two weeks since fhe release of Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare I guess it's time to talk candidates.
Infinite Warfare is set in the far future of the same continuity as the Modern Warfare series. In the future, Earth's natural resources have depleted causing the worlds nations to unite into the UNSA (United Nations Space Alliance) and set out to colonize the far reaches of the solar system. However they find themselves in conflict with the SDF (Settlement Defence Front), consisting of disaffected colonists who quarrel with the UNSA over precious resources.
Now as for the candidate, the game has a main antagonist in Admiral Salem Koch, who is voiced by and modelled after Kit Harington, who is famous for his role as the heroic Jon Snow of Game of Thrones.
Who is Salen Koch ? What does he do ?
Admiral Salen Koch is the genocidal leader of the SDF and fanatically motivated to its cause to wipe out and enslave those he sees as beneath the SDF (as in everyone who isn't in the SDF) and rule over the Solar Sytem. A Nazi By Another Name, Koch seeks to take control of the Solar System from inferior bloodlines that he sees as unfit to inherit the Solar System.
The game opens with a UNSA unit sent to a weapons research facility to investigate an attack by the SDF, and recover a prototype weapon before the sight self destructs. They manage to destroy the facility but fail to recover the weapon. Surviving members of the unit are captured by SDF soldiers and personally confronted by Koch. When the soldier being interrogated says that his men need medical attention, Koch asks the soldier if he cares for his men, before shooting one of his own mooks non chalantly to show that "caring clouds judgement". Koch orders his men to execute the unit but tells them to save their ammo and beat the wounded soldiers to death.
The next mission introduced the protagonist Nick Reyes, who expressed concerns to his superior Admiral Raines, that the SDF attack is tantamount to a declaration of war. Raines explains that the UNSA's leaders don't want to escalate the situation, especially with the Fleet Week celebrations. During the celebration, the SDF hack into the UNSA's AATIS defence canons and they open fire on the fleet ships, as well as sending in ground troops for the attack. Wanton destruction ensues, and civilians are specifically targeted and their casualties being, in my estimated guess, in the thousands. Reyes, and his team including Raines, Slater, and a sentient robotic soldier named Ethan manage to hold off the attack and fight their way to the AATIS tower where Reyes shuts down the cannons and apprehend a SDF spy named Riah, who sabotaged the cannons. Reyes and co take the sourcing ships into orbit to fight the SDF fleet.
In the battle, Koch's own flagship Olympus Mons arrives and destroys the surviving ships before being driven off. Two UNSA ships remain, the carrier Retribution and the destroyer Tigris Reyes becomes de-facto captain of the former as its captain and executive officer was killed in the attack, leaving Reyes as highest ranking officer. Throughout the game, Reyes is given the task to delay the SDF's next attack for the UNSA to recover. Such missions include, retaking a cargo port on the moon, disrupting a critical SDF refueling tower on Titan, crippling their fuel supply and side missions to kill key SDF members. Eventually, Reyes and his team are sent on a mission to investigate a disturbance on an asteroid mining station on Mercury. In said mission they rescue civilians and take out SDF robot drones and loose a soldier named Omar when he gets left behind in a "Go without me" moment. This turns out to be a diversion while Olympus Mon destroys Tigris, killing all those aboard and leaving Retribution as the sole surviving UNSA ship. All the while Koch gives numerous broadcasts to tell the UNSA that their cause is doomed, that they should surrender and accept execution.
The USNA gets a hold of information that the SDF spy Riah was on a suicide mission and had a beacon to be a single for the SDF to make their full invasion of Earth. Reyes comes up with a plan to transport Riah in the city of Geneva, have the beacon extracted and destroyed, using the single to lure Olympus Mon. The plan backfired with SDF soldiers disrupting the convoy. Reyes gives chase to Riah, but when cornered Riah kills himself to trigger the beacon and Olympus Mon quickly arrives to begin a final assault. During which it destroys the UNSA headquarters, killing Admiral Raines.
Reyes and his team begin an assault of Olympus Mon and once they board, Koch speaks to them via video monitor. Reyes challenges Koch to a fight, but Koch says he doesn't fight, only attacks, declaring that the people of Earth will live by SDF's gun point and breath only with their permission. Koch decides to have Olympus Mon self destruct and wipe out Geneva. Reyes and team make it to the main bridge but find Koch has sealed himself up. Using hacking technology, Reyes overrides a robot drone in the room, which grabs Koch in a choke hold and bashes his head on a dashboard before self destructing two feet away from him. Reyes and his team enter the room and Reyes personally confronts a mortally wounded Koch. The player had the option of letting him bleed to death while he says some final hateful words, or stabbing him to death, earning the achievement "You know nothing".
Most Call of Duty games would end after the Big Bad is defeated but there's a few more missions to go. Reyes takes control of then Olympus Mon along with Retribution to seek out and destroy the SDF once and for all. The game ultimately ends on a Bittersweet note with Reyes and most of his own allies (save for Slater) dying in order to accomplish crippling and defeating the SDF for good. Both Retribution and Olympus Mon is destroyed and Slater had to man a destroyer ship to destroy the SDF base on Reyes' order with Reyes allowing himself to die. As a matter of fact there are only four survivors of the Retribution crew. For comparison, the full crew complement was 780. During the credits posthumous messages from the soldiers to their loved ones can be heard.
Redeeming Qualities or a Freudian Excuse ?
Koch has none. As a matter of fact the SDF has got nary a single sympathetic or well intentioned member of their army. These guys support aggressive expansionist warfare, mass killings and consider Earth born bloodlines inferior to their own. Martial skill is valued above all. It's even stated that some where already considered criminals by the UNSA and loading screens show they require fifteen years of military experience, starting at age twelbe and keep a deliberate four to one male to female birthrate.
The games opening shoots down whatever argument they have; The Settlement Defense Front built an army and broke away from the Earth with blood and violence. They aren’t revolutionaries. They want absolute power. They raid colonies, take resources, and control territories by force. They use their fleet to block us from raw materials we need to survive. Their mission is to erase everything Earth born.
Koch himself is absolutely ruthless, casually killing one of his own soldiers to demonstrate that "care clouds judgement" and show that by his own logic, he has what it takes to win this war. In that same scene Koch has wounded prisoners brutally executed after briefly feigning sympathy for them. He is willing to sacrifice his men, his ship and even his own life if it ensures that the devastation of life on Earth. In his Social Darwinist speech, it's shown he he feels nothing but extreme contempt for Earth born as he sees them as weak and unfit to inherit the solar system. Actually, he shows this contempt with nearly every speech he makes.
Heinous Standard
Has plans for mass genocide and conquest of the Solar System. Has A Nazi By Another Name and Social Darwinist mentality, and mass civilan deaths to rack up to the likes of Vladimir Makarov, Koch of course having more resources than Makarov. He attempts to destroy an entire city in his final go like Zakhaev and Makarov before him. On top of that there's callous disregard for his own troops, killing one of them to prove a point, that by his own twisted logic, he has what it takes to win this war as he doesn't care for anything, from his men, to civilians and ultimately his own life.
edited 18th Nov '16 4:35:21 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Actually, wasn't it Lighty who proposed Torque?
Anyway, from Fury (MAX), the Big Bad, Colonel Rudi Gagarin. Now, this takes place in the future, but aside from being a MAX story by Garth Ennis, has no real connection to My War Gone By. SHIELD has become an Obstructive Bureaucracy, and Fury is somewhat of a Retired Badass, but, as he says, "I want another war." Well, he gets his wish, as his old "friend", Spetsnaz trainer and badass Russian Rudi Gagarin, manipulates the dictator of Napoleon Island, General Makawao.
- Who is Rudi Gagarin and what has he done?
- Well, he is a badass (started fighting as a KID) who convinces Makawao to declare Napoleon Island a Communist People's Republic. He knows what the US reaction will be, and indeed this does happen at the end, as they launch airstrikes, devastating the island.
- Not only that, but when training Napoleon Island's forces, when he finds out that one of them ran away from his post (when Fury and his men arrived), he says "I gave Fuckface
permission to sleep with him!" This isn't just offscreen; we see the man, in his underwear, looking like something bad happen. He then says any other soldier who screws up will get the same fate.
- When Fury agrees to rescue Makawao's daughters, Makawao agrees to go on TV and admit what happened, but Gagarin, who has been pushing for the war, kills him; the airstrikes happen soon afterward.
- Gagarin, we find out, has killed all of Nick's men (3 people he had helping him), causing Fury to become irate. Eventually, he and Gagarin fight, with Fury winning, strangling Gagarin with his own intestines (fun fact: apparently, it was this scene
which caused Clooney to drop out of talks to become MCU!Fury. I'm sure he would've been fine, but Samuel L. Jackson is awesome, so, um, thanks Ennis and co.).
- Disqualifiers (including Heinous Standard)?
- Well, when Fuckface is killed by Nick, there's a panel of him saying "Fuckface?", but it's ambiguous whether he cared for him or was just taking cover from the carnage, so I don't see this as disqualifying.
- Now, the heinous standard: Gagarin's obviously the worse, with the war causing, apparently, nearly 1000 killed and twice that many injured, all due to Gagarin. In addition, there's the one rape he has Fuckface commit, with the threat of more; Nick, by contrast, seems to be A Father to His Men, and it appears hates that they got killed.
- HOWEVER, when they are fighting, Gagarin asks this Armor-Piercing Question to Nick: "If I hadn't come down here and started this, you would have done it yourself." At the end, Fury replays this, and hangs his head, saying "Oh God."
- Final Verdict?
- I say
, but I could understand if that last bit gave people pause. It's the one thing I wonder about (though Fury doesn't seem like the type to have the soldiers raped).
- I say
It bothers me to an absurd degree that that achievement is not called "For the Watch." It bothers me so damn much. ![]()
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Salen Koch.
I suppose
Rudi Gagarin, considering he tried to kill millions with the war.
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I thought Malekith's plan was on a similar scale, trying to turn the universe back to eternal night.
edited 18th Nov '16 4:27:29 AM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Salen Kotch and Karza
@ DDOD I wouldn't go as far as to say Karza tops these other two villains; they all operate under different resources. That said, Ravok, without a doubt, proposes the most evil C Ms who top all the others.
edited 18th Nov '16 5:40:55 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!From what's in that effortpost Karza reminds me a bit of Yawgmoth, but with the Obviously Evil cranked up to 1000%. If you had told us he was actually a 2000 AD villain I'd have believed it (well, if not for the parts about HYDRA and the X-Men)!
for him and Koch. Unsure on Gagarin. I also agree with Scraggle on Doctor Strange.
edited 18th Nov '16 6:00:53 AM by LordXavius
Salen Koch.
With Salen Koch as another CoD CM, we have more than enough CMs across all the different Call of Duty works to give it a subpage. (3 from Modern Warfare + 1 from Modern Warfare 2 Ghosts prequel comic book + 2 from Black Ops series + 1 from Infinite Warfare = 7 CMs)
edited 18th Nov '16 6:55:57 AM by Wuz
Yikes, Karza gets a yes from me.
The new Dracula writeup gets my approval. (Dracula was probably one of the first examples of this trope I encountered besides Palpatine)
And yes I do believe we mentioned at one point since one villain rejected redemption that it's no longer impossible for the show to have one, but even so, incredibly unlikely. They'd have to top Tirek for one.
edited 18th Nov '16 8:26:16 AM by Klavice
So, a question. Justice League Dark is being released digitally on January 24, 2017, and is being released on DVD on February 7th.
The question is, which release date should we use for when discussion starts?
Why so serious?
