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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70926: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:59:19 PM

The Thorn and Smoke rewrites look good.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#70927: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:17:55 PM

@Overlord

The specific version of Satan who was cut is the one from The Bible proper, since again, we can't deal with his portrayal in the Christian apocrypha. And in the Bible proper, there's no indication he's an angel.

The Islamic devil, Iblis or Shaitan, is a djinn. Now, while they have moral agency and are capable of coming to worship Allah and obey his commandments, there's also a line about how even the best djinn is morally worse than the best person. So there's moral agency, but it's limited. There's also The Devil Is a Loser factor at play, and the question of what Allah is going to do with Iblis come the end of the world—I've seen everything from destroying him to forgiving him once he realizes he was wrong about people.

Side note—Iblis' fall? Far better story than Satan in the Christian apocrypha if only because it contains a built-in reason for why Allah allows him to torment humanity—namely because he believes humans are innately good and will almost all refuse to give in to Iblis' temptations.

@Awesomekid

Cut that. Brainiac knows exactly what he's doing and does not give a damn. That's true across almost all versions.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#70928: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:30:10 PM

[up] Fair enough, I don't think any mythical version of Satan counts anyway, I was just commenting on the Satan from Christian apocrypha because a lot of mass media versions Satan are based on that one (not to mention several other demon villains) which is why I think the burden of proof should be assuming demons have moral agency, unless stated otherwise.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#70929: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:31:08 PM

Hate to bring it up again, but seeing as how people seem to really like misusing the Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds trope to the point even Palpatine or The Joker could have said trope used to describe them. I found that trope and Freudian Excuse trope under Scourge's entry in Warrior Cats Characters. Not only is his Freudian Excuse another one of those Scare 'Em Straight excuses mixed with "Wah, I was bullied as a kid so I'm going to become a mass murderer and kill other animals and anyone who dares oppose me and wear their teeth around my neck." which arguably holds no water (Even the authors say while Tigerstar can be pitied and loves his mom, you should show nothing but contempt for Scourge) then again, these are the same authors who said Sol is a horrible cat when really he's Affably Evil at his worst and has a genuinely pitiable excuse and thought Ashfur deserved to go to heaven despite trying to kill some four cats (three of which were pretty young and one was blind) as revenge (wouldn't make him a monster mind you, but still pretty dickish when it's been shown characters that do lesser crimes get hell as punishment).

So I'd say we cut those tropes if we're keeping Scourge since his excuse is extremely flat having recently read the manga.

But that's not all. Dahlia Hawthorne has Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds listed under her as well when it's clear she isn't that trope and the only one who thinks so is Iris, her twin sister.

Also Happy Halloween everybody. Maybe we could discuss some horror films examples to celebrate provided the genre hasn't been completely sucked dry of examples.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:34:56 PM by Klavice

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70930: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:44:10 PM

[up] Horror drying up for examples? Pfft...

I actually don't have a Halloween proposal, since tomorrow I'll be watching Hush, which already has its villain listed.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#70931: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:47:43 PM

Closest thing to a Halloween proposal I did was propose two more candidates from a horror boardgame. Definitely going to try and go trick or treating though. I don't care that I'm nearly 19, until I get arrested for it, I'll still consider myself young enough for trick or treating.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70932: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:23:05 PM

I've got The Black Room coming up for today and perhaps one more for Halloween. Now, of course, Lisseth and Eric were also quite seasonally appropriate...

edited 30th Oct '16 11:23:58 PM by Scraggle

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#70933: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:26:00 PM

Already proposed my two Halloween candidates myself.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#70935: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:30:33 PM

You can always make a joke effortpost for me since I was born on Halloween. tongue

But seriously, there may be a few neat candidates outside of ones already mentioned.

Shadow?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70936: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:33:31 PM

[up]

Who is Irene? What have they done?

Irene. Longtime member of the thread. Generally helpful and productive. Also happens to be born on Halloween. I think this horrific fact speaks volumes for itself...

Any mitigating factors?

Hahaha.

Conclusion?

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a remarkably solid keeper this Halloween...

Happy birthday, by the by.

edited 30th Oct '16 11:34:00 PM by Scraggle

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#70937: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:37:16 PM

Happy birthday Irene! I think I've got a candidate right here.

Who is he?

Lex Luthor, from Superman, duh. He's the main baddy.

What has he done?

He placed Kryptonite near Superman fully willing to kill him if he didn't reveal the secret of Superman's peanut butter.

Heinous Standard:

The only one who comes close in that universe is Lex himself stealing cakes but here he's not only stealing peanut butter but trying to kill Superman. The fiend! Easy pass.

Final Verdict:

[tup] a truly fiendish man who wanted nothing more than to steal Superman's delicious peanut butter and is the sole reason why it's not around anymore. You thought stealing cakes was Lex's worst crime, think again!

edited 30th Oct '16 11:40:54 PM by Klavice

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70938: Oct 31st 2016 at 12:06:22 AM

[tup] Irene (Happy birthday)

[tdown] Luthor. One jar of peanut butter is nowhere near as heinous as forty cakes.

Happy Halloween, and blessed Samhain to any pagans on the thread.

edited 31st Oct '16 12:06:58 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#70939: Oct 31st 2016 at 12:13:27 AM

[tup] Irene (Happy birthday)

edited 31st Oct '16 12:13:38 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#70940: Oct 31st 2016 at 12:34:03 AM

[tup] Irene the fact he/she was born on Halloween automatically puts him/her on par with Freddy Kruger in villainy. Helptful and productive users are always the most heinous of characters.

Seriously though, Happy Birthday Irene! How old are you now, if you mind sharing?

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#70941: Oct 31st 2016 at 12:44:25 AM

33 myself. And keep the jokes coming, I'm loving 'em. [lol]

Shadow?
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#70942: Oct 31st 2016 at 1:27:22 AM

A solid [tup] for Irene. Even Yuki Terumi would be jalous. Happy birthday.

edited 31st Oct '16 1:27:31 AM by MiraiYuji

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#70943: Oct 31st 2016 at 3:11:50 AM

[up][up] Hey, someone older than me! tongue Happy b-day.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#70944: Oct 31st 2016 at 3:49:20 AM

@ Irene: Happy b day and happy Halloween.

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#70945: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:25:55 AM

Happy birthday Irene and happy Halloween everyone.

Remember you're never to old to dress up, as a matter of fact, I'll be handing out candy as Deadpool.

As for Halloween examples, I'm gonna be proposing someone either tomorrow or on the AM section of tonight. Not that I think this candidate will count.

[tup] Luthor. Just when I thought I'd get over the forty cakes *shudders*.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#70946: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:33:22 AM

Happy Halloween everybody ! Needles to say who is the central CM of this season

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#70947: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:15:42 AM

Meant to have these up yesterday, but...

First off, the two villains of the 1939 movie Tower of London...Richard III and his right-hand enforcerer/torturer/executioner Mord, played by Basil Rathbone and Boris Karloff respectively. The film plays out a fictionalized retelling of the final days of the Yorks as Richard schemes and murders his way to the throne.

Who are they?

Richard of Gloucester is youngest brother of King Edward IV with designs on his brother's throne and a complete unwillingness to let anything stand in his way. Manipulating his family with intentions of having them removed so he can ascend to the throne of England.

Mord is Richard's enforcer and private killer. A huge, bald, clubfooted beast of a man who runs the dungeons and torture chambers as his personal domain. In Mord, Richard discovers a like-minded ally, and in return for his patronage, Mord is eager to do anything Richard requires. Anything

What Do They Do?

Richard, of course, is fond of having his enemies executed by Mord and one such chap is beheaded early on. Richard and Mord then laugh about the executions together, and it's revealed they frequently make bets on how many swings it'll take Mord to behead someone, with Richard paying Mord for having done it in one blow this time.

We see Mord running his torture chamber as well, and it's a nasty place...for 1939, I'm actually surprised enough of this was actually shown. Mord jaunts past people who are suffering, whipped, stretched on the rack, etc. He then pauses by one fellow who's lying under a board, pressed by weights. After a moment, Mord adds a weight and goes on his way to grab a drink of water from a well nearby...revealing a prisoner is chained to the wall JUST out of reach and struggling for the water. Mord eyes him...and hurls the water onto the floor so the man is force to lick it off the ground.

Richard proceeds to have Mord kill anyone in their way. When one of his rivals, John Wyatt, conspires against him, Wyatt barely escapes. In a memorable scene, Wyatt's lover gives a message to a little boy to take for her...Mord attacks the boy, takes the letter from him and stomps on his back with his clubbed foot, just to be a dick.

Richard begins to icily remove his rivals from the throne: He has Mord murder the captive King Henry VI and later frame his brother George of Clarence as a traitor, (played by Vincent Price, who would later play Richard III in the 1962 Tower of London, but I digress)...Mord is sent to dispose of him and, as the legend goes, drowns Clarence in a cask of wine. When Edward is dying, he, stupidly, names Richard the royal protector of the realm and the guardian of his nephews, one now King Edward V.

Richard totally pinky swears to guard their birthright...and sets about taking over before his brother's body is even cold. The princes are stripped of power and imprisoned in the Tower of London. When Wyatt manages to steal the royal treasure to aid Richard's rival and the last Lancaster claimant to the throne Henry Tudor, Richard decides enough is enough, and in his worst deed, gives Mord the order to murder the children. Mord visits them in the tower and seemingly can't go through with it...before we see his seeming reluctance is only measuring how big a box he needs to hold the corpses before he takes several men to murder the boys as they beg for mercy.

When Henry Tudor receives the treasure he leads an attack on London, resulting in a duel with Richard. Mord gleefully takes to the field, slaughtering those he finds before he and Wyatt engage one another. Henry Tudor cuts down Richard while Wyatt finishes Mord in single combat.

Mitigating Factors?

Nothing that holds up. Richard muses he and Mord are a fine pair, the crookback and the clubfoot, but nothing really mitigates their evil, and Richard is never shown being mistreated by his family whatsoever. His elder brother loves and trusts him, and Clarence...okay, Clarence is an annoying, whiny coward, but still. Cold, Richard. Cold.

Mord is loyal to Richard as a true Psycho for Hire and even says Richard is like a God to him, but at point when the chips are down, their friendly relationship is shown as hollow. Richard is friendly to Mord, and happily pays up when he loses the "how many swings can I decapitate this guy in" bet, telling Mord he's earned his payment, but when things go bad, he openly threatens Mord with death and torture. Mord is shown to be a nasty sadist who views Richard as the ultimate enabler of everything he wants to do. His role as executioner and torturer is a dream job, and he wants, at the end, to be on the battlefield to "kill in hot blood" as he puts it. Honestly, I'd have to say Mord is easily up there with Hjalmar Poelzig as the most vile character Karloff ever played.

So, in conclusion? Pass for both of them. I should note Rathbone plays Richard as ice cold, without any true feeling in his private scenes. His slow murder of his family is reflected by a set of dolls he keeps that resemble his family standing before a throne in front of him...and how he keeps removing them once he eliminates them.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#70948: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:46:46 AM

[tup] Richard and Mord

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70949: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:51:05 AM

An easy aye to both Richard and Mord.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#70950: Oct 31st 2016 at 7:12:03 AM

[tup] to Richard and Mord.

Yeesh, I have to admit when I had no idea Basil Rathbone or Boris Karloff ever played anyone that fundamentally vile.

edited 31st Oct '16 7:14:53 AM by MGD107


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