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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#70601: Oct 27th 2016 at 10:35:26 AM

edited 27th Oct '16 10:38:04 AM by rosewood47

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70602: Oct 27th 2016 at 10:46:21 AM

Now, in terms of rewrites? I've got a few myself.

From Stranger Tides and The Kite Runner, here are two entries in dire need of rewrites:

  • Blackbeard enjoys torturing his prisoners, locks them in cages and burns them alive, punishes anyone who tries to disagree with him, treats Syrena horribly, and in the end, he is ready to sacrifice his own daughter to save his own life. His disregard for his own daughter's life was even implied when he was ready to force Jack Sparrow to jump the gorge under the threat of her death, and ordered a mook to load two guns with a bullet each, and keep even himself in the dark as to which guns are loaded, and later lied to his daughter about knowing which ones are loaded.

  • Assef rapes Amir's servant, Hassan, because he wouldn't give him a kite, and then goes on to become a member of the Taliban, where he takes small children from orphanages to become sex slaves, one of them the orphaned son of Hassan!. As a cherry on top, he actually ''admires'' Adolf Hitler. By that point he's already shown himself to be a nasty villain in many respects.

And my proposed rewrites:

  • Pirates Of The Caribbean On Stranger Tides: Captain Edward Teach, the infamous Blackbeard, is a feared pirate who prides himself as one of the most feared men on the high seas. Blackbeard abuses and murders members of his own crew on the basis of "if I don't kill a man every now and then, they forget who I am," incinerating his ship's cook to demonstrate this and resurrecting some of his own slain crew members as mindlessly obedient zombies. On his quest to the Fountain of Youth to avert his prophesied death at the hands of a one-legged man, Blackbeard puts a mermaid named Syrena through hideous treatment for the purpose of gaining her tear, first showing her the remains of her own fellow mermaids and then ordering Phillip, the single man who displays compassion to her, killed in front of her. Blackbeard claims to love his daughter, but undersells even this through a risky game of Russian Roulette with his own daughter's life and ultimately trying to sacrifice her life for his own at the Fountain of Youth. Blackbeard admits he feels closest to God in moments of pain and anguish and calmly tortured and murdered anyone who dared to stand against him.

  • The Kite Runner: Assef begins life as a brass knuckle-brandishing sociopath and a racist bully with a virulent hatred of the Hazaras. Possessed of an admiration for Adolf Hitler himself and considering him a visionary, Assef is already known as an ear-eating savage around his area and shows his true colors by raping Hassan alongside his friends after the boy humiliates him. Assef graduates from bully to a member of the Taliban who introduces himself stoning a blindfolded man to death and taking orphans to be sold into sexual slavery, among them the now-deceased Hassan's son Sohrab as his personal sex slave. Assef is no less adamant about his mission to massacre the Hazaras, and proudly accepts the term "ethnic cleansing" as one he likes. Assef views himself as taking out "garbage" around Afghanistan, but when everything is clear, Assef is little more than a domineering, depraved, remorseless bully from youth to adulthood.

How do those look?

edited 27th Oct '16 1:52:03 PM by Scraggle

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#70603: Oct 27th 2016 at 10:48:10 AM

[up] These look good.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#70604: Oct 27th 2016 at 10:50:51 AM

Abstain on Nitro, [tup] to Minion.

I have a few issues with some of the entries we have on the Never Again Section. Now, I'm not saying that they should be removed, or considered again. Just that the reasons given seem kind of questionable and need improvment.

Definitely a CM

  • Infinite Crisis
    • Superboy-Prime: As it stands now, he has been definitively shown as a CM

Going to be blunt and say this is easily the worst entry for a Monster on the Never Again section that I've seen. Doesn't even bother to refute the potential Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities people brought up to argue against him being a CM like the Beatrix, Volgin, or Lotso ones, and it basically just "he's a CM" without any further reason. If he's been questioned enough to be on of the few characters on Definitely a CM then I'm pretty sure there were arguments of redeeming qualities that should be refuted.

Definitely not a CM

My knowledge on Christianity is kind of lacking, so I might be off-base on this one, but from what I know, according to the Bible, Satan was originally an angel who served God before getting envious and willingly rebelling against him. Maybe I'm unaware of some details, but I'm pretty sure he has moral agency. (Again, not saying he should qualify, especially because of the Offscreen Villainy issue)

  • Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker
    • Hot Coldman: Disqualified for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and for failing the truly heinous standard compared to Volgin.

Again, might be off-base due to my lack of knowledge of the series, but didn't Hot Coldman nearly cause the destruction of the entire planet? Apparently, his intention was only to nuke Cuba, but his page mentions how he doesn't care about what would happen if humans retaliated and cause a nuclear war. Volgin's a torturous sadist, but I kind of question that he'd be more heinous than a man who wouldn't care if he caused the destruction of the planet. Again, maybe my info is inaccurate, and I'm not saying Coldman should be a CM.

  • My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
    • Any character because it's a lighthearted kids' show and fails the heinous standard.

This entry just came off as being sick of the mere mention of the show having a candidate rather than nobody actually being a candidate. Failing the heinous standard is a legit reason, but kind of outdated since a character in one of the Equestria Girls movies tried to destroy all of existence but the reason of it being a lighthearted kid's show doesn't make sense. Not only do we have CM's from lighthearted kids shows (Dark Princess from Rainbow Brite, Tirek from My Little Pony TV Specials and Maltruant from Ben 10: Omniverse) but Knight of Cerebus is a thing that exists. The trope is about villains that make the usually light tone much darker. The overall series being lighthearted wouldn't disqualify a candidate if the candidate itself is darker and treated as being more menacing.

Again, I am not saying that these entries should be removed from the Never Again section (Ok, to an extent the Friendship is Magic one I suppose, but it's not like there's any characters I have in mind to be candidates) or that the characters should qualify/be disqualified. I'm saying that the entries for them could use improving.

edited 27th Oct '16 10:59:47 AM by Awesomekid42

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#70605: Oct 27th 2016 at 10:53:18 AM

[up] As a raised Catholic Christian (now Agnostic) I will tell you that it is WAY wrong to say that Satan is Made of Evil. You are right, he is a Fallen Angel. But I do have to agree with the Offscreen Villainy part. And also, he fails the heinous test. God has a much higher bodycount from Satan.

edited 27th Oct '16 10:54:32 AM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#70606: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:00:31 AM

So on The Kite Runner, Assef does have an Even Evil Has Standards entry which worries me that it may negate his Complete Monster-status.

Which seems like a shame because he's clearly got the heinousness in spades, but if he has even one redeeming attribute that should disqualify him, right?

  • Even Evil Has Standards: As Amir says, "sociopath" is indeed the right word to describe Assef. But before he fights Amir, he tells the guards that if Amir leaves the room alive and he doesn't, Amir is to be allowed to pass since he has earned his freedom.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70607: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:09:53 AM

[up] That's sort of a weird thing with Assef, but I don't particularly consider it redeeming. For context, Assef's only gonna allow Amir out with the kid if he can beat him in a fight. Assef's completely expecting to beat Amir to a bloody pulp and kill him, and that's almost what ends up happening. Now, when Sohrab speaks up and tells him to get off Amir? Assef coldly threatens that what he'll do to the kid if he doesn't step down will be horrible.

So no, it's not really something I consider disqualifying... Assef's still fully expecting to - and fully capable of - winning the fight and it's not done out of any genuine altruism or care for the kid or Amir on his part. I guess it could be interpreted as a weird standard, but it's not one I consider enough to disqualify him as a CM.

To be honest, I might strike that from the character page because that's an erroneous use of the trooe anyways.

edited 27th Oct '16 11:11:30 AM by Scraggle

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#70608: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:19:38 AM

Okay, so I think that's about 6 or 7 upvotes for the Minion. Unless more weigh in, here's an attempted writeup.

  • The Minion: The Minion is a demonic entity with a penchant for hijacking bodies. Desiring to release The Antichrist from his imprisonment, the Minion gleefully sets out to acquire a key, knowing that doing so would result in the destruction of the world. The Minion takes possession of several hosts during its pursuit of the key. Whether it's using a police officer to massacre the entirety of the police department or forcing a possessed Bernhard into decimating the Knights Templar, the Minion left a trail of death in its wake. Realizing that Lukas and Karen were intending on disposing of the key at a nuclear waste facility, the Minion murders Michael Bear — Karen's grandfather — and masquerades as him in a feeble attempt at deceiving Lukas into giving him the key. Fanatical and vicious, the Minion desired nothing less than pure, unadulterated chaos.

edited 27th Oct '16 9:41:07 PM by AustinDR

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70609: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:22:32 AM

Oh yes, a firm yes to the Minion.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#70610: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:22:53 AM

Okay that's five [tup] and zero [tdown] to George Mackie, so he's a keeper.

My forth candidate for New Tricks is the series only true recurring villain and Jack Halfords’s personal Arch-Enemy, Ricky Hanson.

As there is a lot of ground to cover, I'm afraid this one's going to be a bit long, .

Who is He:

Ricky Hanson is a career criminal and mid-level London Gangster, described in Jack’s words as “the biggest thieving, murdering, lying piece of shyte I’ve ever laid eyes upon.” Multiple cops and lawyers have been trying to put him away for years. Yet despite Jack himself personally arresting him five times, Hanson always managed to walk.

What has he done:

Starting out as a young man in 1984 Hanson used to hang out with a small time fascist group known as the Twenty-Fours (named after Hitler’s birthday) before taking over the group and using them as a front for his drug ring. Hanson also bought the Twenty-Fours leader, Peter Monroe’s construction business saving it from bankruptcy, and thus ensuring him both Monroe’s loyalty and his silence.

However student activists Sarah Jones and Daniel Cobb had infiltrated the Twenty-Fours in hopes of uncovering something which would destroy Monroe’s dream of running for local government. Due to some tragic bad luck they were identified one night by local comedian Ray Harris who happened to be drinking in the same pub the Twenty-Fours hung out in. Hanson sent him away and had his goons beat up Daniel, when Sarah blurted out they knew about the drugs and were going to the police.

Hanson gutted Daniel with a knife, and then killed Sarah in the same way. Monroe later speculated he wanted her to see what was coming before he killed her. Then he had Monroe hide the bodies underneath Harris conservatory which his company was building for him. Figuring that way if they were found Harris would get the blame (both Jones and Cobb had campaigned quite severely against Harris’s misogynist and racist act).

In 1996 before he retired and while she was still Detective Inspector for his team, Jack and Sandra investigated Hanson. They managed to link Ricky to three separate murders, including his own brother Jim. The word was that Jim had messed up on a major drug deal, and the furious Ricky had murdered him.

They however couldn’t get enough evidence to charge him. Realising they were getting to close; Hanson tracked down Jack’s beloved wife Mary, and ran her over (according to his son Luke who was with him at the time, when he hit her he laughed out loud). Mary managed to survive but was severely injured and Jack retired to look after of her; it took two years for her wounds to kill her. Hanson got away.

A year later Luke was suspected of burning down the school he was expelled from, Hanson convinced him to keep quiet about where he had really been because he had been doing job for Hanson, promising him Luke's girlfriend at the time, Lysette Perry, would give him a false alibi for the fire. It’s next to confirmed that Hanson purposely set Luke up to take the fall for the fire, leading to spending the next seven years in prison, as admitting to the other crime would have incriminated Hanson.

Hanson first appears in the season three final ‘Congratulations’, where the team reinvestigating the arson attack which Luke took the rap for, with Jack convinced Hanson was behind it. In this case it turned out he wasn’t, however Jack discovered he is having an affair with his son’s ex-girlfriend Lysette.

Who when confronted lets slip to him that it was Hanson who killed Mary. Enraged Jack confronted Hanson, who confessed its true, mocking Jack for thinking he had been planning to kill him and reminiscing about running her over to torment him. Losing it, Jack himself tried to kill Hanson by running him over in the car park, this being the season’s cliff-hanger.

I just want to make a note how serious this is. Throughout the series Jack is gentle and caring man, who is not above getting tough with dangerous criminals, but it still takes quite a lot for him to even get annoyed let alone angry. This is the only time he ever tried to take the law into his own hands.

Hanson next appears in the fourth season premier ‘Casualty’. Jack’s attempt to kill him is foiled by Sandra running her own car into his. Everyone survives, but Jack staggers out of the car before collapsing in front of him. Hanson goes to his own car and then tries to slowly run Jack over. Only stopping at the last minute when a growing crowd emerges to see the crash, providing too many witnesses. So instead he escapes.

Later on he sneaks into the hospital Jack is saying at, disguised as a doctor while making no effort to help a man when he drops clutch while climbing down the stairs. He proceeds to disable to the nurse on duty of the ward, knocking her unconscious. Then taking a pillow from another patient he goes over to the sleeping Jack and softly wakes him up.

As Jack becomes conscious Hanson tenderly says to him “Jack...Jack, say hello to the wife” before attempting to smother him. He’s interrupted by Brian returning. Overpowering him, Hanson tries to strangle Brian. But Jack recovers just in the nick of time and knocks Hanson unconscious with an oxygen cylinder. Hanson is taken into police custody.

Rickey returns in the season five premier ‘Spare Parts’ with his trial beginning. Just before he somehow manages to calls Jack and tells him “careful what you say in court Jack, think of your loved ones. The one’s you have left anyway.”

Through a combination of having his lawyer (whose implied and speculated to be an outright Amoral Attorney) hurl mud at the team to make the Jury doubt there testimonies, and outright lying through his teeth on the stand, Hanson is ruled not guilty. This breaks Jack so much he outright disappears for several weeks, not returning till half way through the season.

Hanson returns a final time in the Season Six episode ‘The Last Laugh’ when the team begin a reinvestigation into the disappearance of Sarah Jones and Daniel Cobb. They discover Hanson was involved with the Twenty-Fours.

Gerry and Brian go to Hanson’s house where he is throwing a party for his son Luke. Hanson dismisses ever seeing the students, and that night takes his son to a casino. Gerry follows and joins in; he manages to beat Hanson at a high stakes game winning Ten thousand pounds.

The next day, Hanson sends several of his goons after Gerry, who is meeting with his informer Polish George, to thank him. They restrain Gerry and beat Polish senseless, demanding the money Gerry won or they would burn his business down with them in it. Gerry gives it to them, and they leave returning to Hanson.

The team also begin working with Frank Pattison who is coming up for retirement, and has spent most of his career trying to nail Hanson. He reveals he helped out Sarah and Daniel, hoping they would lead to a conviction for Hanson and tried to warn them it was getting to dangerous before they disappeared.

Gerry meanwhile realises Polish must have something on Hanson or Ricky would have had his goons either kill or cripple him, instead of just beating him up for the money. Hitting him up he makes a shocking discovery, Lysette Perry is really Hanson’s daughter.

Taking Hanson in for questioning, they discover he knew about this and never told Luke he had been sleeping with his half-sister. However they had also brought Luke in who saw his father confessing to this. This along with everything else finally caused Luke to snap, and give a statement that Hanson was behind Mary’s murder.

That coupled with them finding the bodies of Sarah and Daniel leads to Hanson finally being put away for good, granting Jack his closure.

Freudian Excuse or any redeeming features:

Not really, Hanson is in most regards just an arrogant but smart thug. Several times he clearly tries to be Faux Affably Evil but he’s far too coarse and smug to be any good at it. Such as him letting Brian and Gerry stay at his party for little while then chucking them out.

It’s mentioned by Gerry that Hanson does reward loyalty, but we don’t see any evidence of this outside him keeping Monroe’s business from falling into bankruptcy. So it’s safe to say if he does this it falls into Pragmatic Villainy, especially considering he apparently killed his own brother for letting him down and was happy to frame the person who revealed there were two moles in his operation for their murder.

Now Hanson does at times seem quite friendly with his associates. However he never demonstrates anything other than the most superficial level of affection or any real care towards them.

Hanson’s relationship with his son isn’t really redeeming either. It’s mentioned he was furious when he got expelled from school, but he did also take a sixteen year old with him when he went to murder a woman, got him involved in his criminal empire and sent him down the river for seven years to save himself (and stole his girlfriend).

He then pretty much disowned his son after Luke got out and didn’t want anything to do with, declaring “Fair enough you are, your dead to me!”, and outright denying he had a son in his first appearance. It’s all but stated the only reason he reconnects with him is because Luke knows too much.

The team speculate it’s only a matter of time before Hanson has Luke bumped off as well. Something Luke comes to realises is quite possible. Really Hanson never displays any care or affection towards his son without having an ulterior motive and if he did honestly care about Luke he probably would have told him the truth about Lysette without needing to be backed into a corner. When Luke turns on him, Hanson has to be restrained by the officers.

Now the only true wrinkle is Lysette Perry. Hanson has a relationship with her (and it’s implied he was sleeping with her back before Luke was arrested), but he does dismiss her as just another one of his “tarts” when Jack enquires about her. He did apparently send her out of the country, give her a good amount of money and pay for her board at some point between ‘Congratulations’ and ‘The Last Laugh’. But it’s pretty much stated this is just to keep the truth about him being her father secret rather than being a display of affection, as its outright spelled out that if it ever got out he had been in an incestuous relationship it would ruin him.

Now Hanson does claim to Luke he never knew she was his daughter while he was sleeping with her and stopped immediately afterwards but the man is a near habitual liar, and he only starts talking like this when he realises he’s losing his hold on Luke, before he treated the matter with outright casual disregard.

You could say the fact he didn’t kill her or Luke to keep them quiet is a sign of affection, but I think that again falls under Pragmatic Villainy. As I said the series is reasonably realistic, with Crime Bosses like Hanson often trying to avoid killing, due to it making it being dangerous for them. Paying them off is a lot easier.

Heinous Standard:

As crime bosses in the series go, Hanson is the worst. He does admittedly benefit from his multiple appearances (something no other villain, save two from the shows two two-part episodes, had). Over the years the team faced some pretty nasty gangsters, including gleeful psychopath Domenic Chapman and the vicious Chopper Hadley.

However despite being less powerful than most of them Hanson still has the highest body count. With six kills to his name, he’s pretty much above the majority of killers on this show with only three people having a higher body count than him. With two of them the majority of their kills are Offstage Villainy and the other one was probably too insane to qualify.

Off-screen villainy:

Now my only concern is some of Hanson’s crimes do fall into this.

The three initial deaths Sandra and Jack linked him to are this (including the murder of his own brother), we never see any evidence for them, they're just talked about. Though to be the fair the fact he killed his brother isn’t just an offhand comment, rather it’s something everybody who knows him openly accepts as a fact (including after a little prodding Luke).

However Hanson’s other three murders aren’t. We do see the effects of him killing Sarah and Daniel including pictures of them, the team finding their bodies were Hanson had them buried, and we also get a quite detailed testimony about what happened to them.

Now as for the murder of Mary, we don’t see him hitting her but we do see a lot of its effects. For starters it’s a major part of Jack’s backstory and his efforts to find her killer make up a good part of the show’s first three seasons subplot. We likewise see plenty of evidence relating to her existence along with her being hospitalised and damaged from the crash.

We also regularly see her grave, with Jack often going to it to talk to her about the cases. That coupled with Hanson’s multiple admissions and graphic description of hitting her, which is later confirmed by Luke, I think it’s enough for it not to be off screen.

We also see Hanson attempt murder three times onscreen, in all occasions only stopping due to circumstances.

Conclusion:

Really I think Hanson counts, even with three of his kills falling into Offstage Villainy, he still has three other murders which aren’t. This is still much higher than the majority of villains including other mob bosses (Chapman who was not only much more powerful than Hanson, but also particularly violent and unstable only had one confirmed murder).

So yeah I would say he counts. Still what do you think?

edited 27th Oct '16 11:29:13 AM by MGD107

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#70611: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:17:41 PM

That's sort of a weird thing with Assef, but I don't particularly consider it redeeming. For context, Assef's only gonna allow Amir out with the kid if he can beat him in a fight. Assef's completely expecting to beat Amir to a bloody pulp and kill him, and that's almost what ends up happening. Now, when Sohrab speaks up and tells him to get off Amir? Assef coldly threatens that what he'll do to the kid if he doesn't step down will be horrible. So no, it's not really something I consider disqualifying... Assef's still fully expecting to - and fully capable of - winning the fight and it's not done out of any genuine altruism or care for the kid or Amir on his part. I guess it could be interpreted as a weird standard, but it's not one I consider enough to disqualify him as a CM. To be honest, I might strike that from the character page because that's an erroneous use of the trooe anyways.

But why does he do it, then? The entry seems to indicate that there's nothing making him honor it, but he does it any way.

Now obviously, it doesn't do a damn thing to redeem him... in terms of Karma he's about -100, and that brings it up to -99.5. But I thought any kind of somewhat altruistic act would disqualify someone?

Now, if you tell me that he told his men this because he's so confident that he knows that it'll make the other guy feel worse when he loses, then we can just move on. But at this point I can't say I'm convinced. I want to be, but I'm not.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#70612: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:35:42 PM

[up][up]Well, when you bet against someone, you usually expect to win. But even so, he still bothered to tell the guards that if he loses, they'd let Amir go. It means he's a Graceful Loser, which is an altruistic quality, therefore an instant disqualifier.

edited 27th Oct '16 12:37:02 PM by MiraiYuji

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#70613: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:01:24 PM

So, anybody else have any thoughts on my post about the Never Again entries?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#70614: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:11:08 PM

Abstaining on Mimimi until more detail (esp, the heinous standard, especially vis a vis Kanade/Metropoli Man, although he apparently loves his sister).
Scraggle: Drafts page please.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#70615: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:16:12 PM

I really don't think of that as an instant disqualifier I'm mean we do have Hades so I'll give Hanson a [tup].

I also don't believe Nitro to be a Generic Doomsday Villain as he clearly has an personality, a moral agency, yet it is clear that he doesn't really regret the other innocents he has killed and still does it anyway so I'll also give him a [tup].

[up][up]I agree in making some changes in the Never Again List.

The entry describing Superb boy Prime doesn't say why he should always be CM, just that he is. If it elaborates on that it would be fine.

The Made of Evil should definitely be cut from Satan's entry as the bible states that he was an angel and on Gods side before defecting therefore showing to become evil by his choices not by being made into it, thus a moral agency.

Finally, I don't really agree on My Little Pony: The Magic Of Friendship having no CM for being too lighthearted. I could understand the likes of Fairly OddParents!, SpongeBob SquarePants, and South Park to do not being allowed to have Complete monsters due to Negative Continuity and being always Played for Laughs, but for My Little Pony, it doesn't have Negative Continuity and despite being considered Lighthearted, there are scenes or actions Played for Drama and could have serious consequence.

This is my opinion on the issue

edited 27th Oct '16 1:17:38 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#70616: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:40:17 PM

[up] As far as I can tell, My Little Pony: The Magic of Friendship technically can have a CM. The problem, however, is that so many people want there to be a CM in this show, that some people start grasping for straws and act like they will literally die if this show goes without having a villain who's a CM. And I'm not sure why some people are obsessed about it.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#70617: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:41:02 PM

Speaking of the Never Again list, it has this on it:

  • Mass Effect 2
    • Morinth: Disqualified for Offscreen Villainy and for having redeeming qualities (genuinely caring for her two sisters).
    • Dr. Gavin Archer: Disqualified for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, having a Heel Realization moment, and becoming The Atoner.

I'm just wondering if the Dr. Archer entry is even necessary, especially after his appearance (should he survive) in Mass Effect 3. There are just so many things that disqualify him, it's not just one line of dialogue or something more subjective like 'not meeting the heinous standard'. I honestly doubt he'll be brought up again. I mean, just look at this scene.

edited 27th Oct '16 1:43:35 PM by Camberf

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#70618: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:21:30 PM

[up][up] Magic of Frienship ? Is there another show I'm not aware of ? 😄

But semi-seriously though, I've noticed this too; I've seen some fans get real annoyed when a villain has a reformation.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#70619: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:24:06 PM

As an MLP fan, I'll just take a moment to 1) apologize for the obsession and shoehorning of it into this trope which has resulted in this backlash, and 2) note that I'll gleefully write a character from it up if they unambiguously breach the baseline heinous standard and end their run without redemption (at this point it's even odds for a couple of characters, and the series seems likely to wrap up in the next few years), and leave it at that.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#70620: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:24:14 PM

[up] Well, if they've previously established themselves as an irredeemable bastard? Then redeeming them feels like a complete and unrealistic cop-out.

That's gonna become even truer in a few weeks' time, by the by...

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#70621: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:28:07 PM

Ohhhh, you have no idea how annoyed I am about that today.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#70622: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:32:34 PM

[up][up] There's also the added bonus of characters treating characters who did far less worse than characters who did far more evil acts.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#70623: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:33:22 PM

While I am about 90% sure it won't, MLP FIM could have an example if they had a situation where a villain was going to fire a blast of magic to try and destroy a town or something (while not actually addressing or acknowledging the obvious results this would bring, of course). Of course, that would be a big "if", and the last time they had a villain that was even powerful enough to destroy a tree was with Tirek, so I don't see that happening. They could have one try to blast the characters with magic or something. If they tried to blast Spike or something, that could possibly qualify them. I do not expect for there to ever be an example, I'm just saying that you should never say never. the thing with South Park is that the chances of having an example are so little for two reasons. One is that almost everything on it is Played for Laughs, and the other is that Cartman has set the bar extremely high with the episode where he teamed up with Cithlulu. In order to qualify in South Park, there would have to be a villain who would do something like destroy the entire town and not be played for laughs. I can see why there almost certainly won't be an example from those shows, just saying.

I agree with G Editor on Nitro. He may not have been planning to kill all of those people from the start, but when he decided to blow himself up, he knew that all of those people would be killed in the crossfire, and he did it anyway. He knew that all of those people would die if he blew himself up there, and he did it anyway. If you know something bad will happen from your actions, and you do them anyway, you can still be held accountable. If you are willing to kill 600 people just to kill your enemies, that makes you a monster in my opinion.

jjj
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#70624: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:39:38 PM

[up] IIRC the comics had one of the villains leaving people one or two people to be burned alive by stuff he caused.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70625: Oct 27th 2016 at 2:48:19 PM

[tup] Hansom

What's happening in a few weeks?


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