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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#68001: Sep 18th 2016 at 3:52:50 PM

Well, it's not so much that it's irrelevant but rather that it can't be used as definite proof here. Writer opinion about their characters can be at odds with how they really presented it. At the extreme end there are even writers who think that their Designated Heroes are saints and writers who think that their Designated Villains are the devil.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
TaylorHyuuga from Rokkenjima Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#68002: Sep 18th 2016 at 4:01:40 PM

Why is Word of God irrelevant? I mean, it's something stated by the creator, so it can probably be taken as fact, unless they're a Trolling Creator, which I don't believe Hirsch is.

<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#68003: Sep 18th 2016 at 4:06:25 PM

unless they're a Trolling Creator, which I don't believe Hirsch is.

He provides the page image for Trolling Creator.

edited 18th Sep '16 4:06:42 PM by SatoshiBakura

TaylorHyuuga from Rokkenjima Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#68004: Sep 18th 2016 at 4:46:26 PM

Huh. So he does. Okay then. I guess I never saw too many of the troll-y comments he's said.

<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#68005: Sep 18th 2016 at 7:01:44 PM

Secret Six:

  • Junior, daughter of the first Ragdoll, is a crime boss so depraved and ruthless even Intergang gives her a wide berth. Famed for her cruelty and monstrousness, Junior routinely offers her victim a choice of dying horribly or letting Junior kill their families. When most choose the second choice, Junior records it, along with the victim's horrible death, and sends it to the families. Having obtained a card that is literally a pass out of hell, Junior kills and tortures countless people, raping men and women alike. When the card is stolen, Junior attempts to have her sins absolved by a priest, only to painfully kill the man when he refuses. Junior captures Bane of the Secret Six, who have the card, and tortures him to gain the location of the others with scissors and bricks as her chosen tools. At the end, Junior loses control and attempts to slaughter every villain present when they see her mutilated true appearance, even her own brother Peter/Ragdoll II. Despite her backstory of the first Ragdoll having molested her, Junior is afforded no sympathy, knowing what a depraved monster she truly is and committing countless evil deeds because she loves it and feels she can get away with anything due to the card in her possession.
  • Mr. Smyth is a man with a radical plan to 'better' the world: bring back the institution of slavery as it is what 'great nations' are built upon. Smyth takes in the slaves and forces them to work in horrible conditions, leading to their deaths from overwork, cave-ins or gas. When a slave named Maria refuses to work any more, Smyth has his assistant begin slaughtering innocent slaves en masse until a broken Maria promises to keep working. Smyth later tricks Deadshot into murdering Maria by offering her 'freedom' if she can run to safety before telling Deadshot she is an escaping dangerous prisoner. Smyth also keeps Amazons as slaves with the intent to force them into servitude or death as well, and shows no concern over anything but the restoration of the institution of slavery.

  • Red Sprite: Starter Villain Lt. Colonel Shepherd discovers a new way to enhance the power of 'Thundercore,' an electrical substance that powers all of the world's technology. Cultivating children with Thundercore within them, Shepherd intends to use them as slaves to power up everything they can before the children are inevitably drained of energy and remain only as withered husks. When she discovers their location, having been rescued by a kind priest, Shepherd kills the man by crushing his heart and abducts the children, save for the hero Tatsu Frampt. Later returning to save his comrades, Tatsu sees that Shepherd is using dozens of people for their energy, bound to an airship whose capacity will kill them all very quickly. Showing no remorse, Shepherd is devoted to her twisted views on science.

  • Agent of the Empire: Iaco Stark was once a domineering young pirate who started the Stark Hyperspace War. Always managing to come out on top of every galactic conflict until the days of the Empire, upon reaching old age, Stark fakes his own death and has his head grafted onto a powerful, spider-like droid's body with a plan to unleash what is known as Iron Eclipse. Having his second wife Dah'Liss murdered when she inadvertantly tells Imperial Agent Jahan Cross too much, Stark later murders his own son Iaclyn when he shows his half-sister compassion. (Stark's first wife having had an affair) Stark then reveals his true motivations: to activate Iron Eclipse and make every droid in the galaxy begin killing their masters until they submit to Stark as the galaxy's new ruler, something that would create a death toll that would eclipse countless other villains.

  • The Lake: In this Richard Laymon thriller, the Serial Killer known as The Candyman is obsessed with photographing dark-haired women and later murdering them gruesomely, keeping the photos, of which he has enough to fill an entire scrapbook. His true identity is Mace Harrison, birth name Jess Payne, and the Evil Uncle of the novel's heroine Deana. Seducing her mother Leigh, who had Deana after a brief fling with Mace's brother Charlie, Mace grows abusive and cruel to her before revealing his true identity. Capturing Deana, he assaults her and plans to violate and kill her later along with her mother, as well as his own long-lost sister Tania. At the end, Mace tries to kill all of them, devoted to ridding the world of 'whores,' defined by his misogynistic sadism.

  • Supergirl: Brainiac 8, known better as Indigo, is a Coluan imprisoned on Krypton for attempting to destroy the Kryptonian people. When she introduces herself on earth, she turns every light in National City green, causing accidents and endangering hundreds of lives. Soon revealing her darker side, Indigo tries to launch nuclear missiles to destroy National City, with plans to destroy all humans. When defeated, she later teams up with Kara's Evil Uncle Non and activates Project Myriad to put humanity into a trance-like state. Indigo then puts her plan a step further into motion: to enhance the power to kill everyone else on earth and then leave the planet, leaving Kara stranded as 'queen of a dead world.' Even in her last moments, Indigo gloats that she had left Project Myriad impossible to stop, taking comfort that humanity will follow her to the grave.

And a Marmoo expansion/rewrite...

  • Lord Marmoo is the brutal Evil Overlord of the scorpions who beliefs that the weak have no right to survive. Longing to destroy the fertile Amphibilands, Marmoo teams up with the Spider Queen Jarrah and leads the armies into battle, killing the Turtle King Sergu. Upon his initial defeat, Jarrah makes Marmoo stronger than before, whereupon he repays her by murdering her. Drunk on his newfound might, Marmoo attacks another village to raze it to the ground and kills the chief of the frogs himself. Returning to the spiders, Marmoo kills many of them by collapsing their fortress, not even caring his own men and brother Pigo are within. Forcing the surviving spiders into service, Marmoo attacks the Amphibilands, killing many frogs and even sneering that the only scorpions to die are those too weak to survive. Upon his victory, Marmoo banishes the frogs into the desert with no supplies, condemning them to slow death by heat and starvation. Not even his men are immune to his cruelty, as any scorpion injured in the fight is given the choice of leaving or being eaten alive; including Marmoo's own brother Pigo. Ambitious, brutal, cruel and egotistical a monster as they come, Marmoo believes only in power, domination and revenge with nothing to stand in his way.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#68006: Sep 18th 2016 at 8:33:25 PM

Speaking of Secret Six, did someone request Dwarfstar be cut already?

Why so serious?
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#68007: Sep 18th 2016 at 10:09:53 PM

[up] Yes, we agreed he was a cut.

On Bill Cipher, username2527 misread the implications of that poem. Bill's bad relationship with his family doesn't hold any weight as a Freudian Excuse since he thinks nothing of his family now and the backstory and character arc of Stanley Pines directly parallels Bill - Stanley had it bad with his family too yet he values family above everything Bill tries to sell him out of desperation at the end, which Bill cannot understand. Moreover, the poem follows "he's a liar" with "blame the arson for the fire" in reference to how Bill himself destroyed his dimension and thus has no one to blame but himself for it burning and him being unable to return. It indicates that after Bill killed his family and burned his entire dimension into nothingness, he had a My God, What Have I Done? reaction to his actions and his response to that was to go mad and bury his remorse deep, deep, deep down into his subconscious 'til it was no longer a problem, and went on to do even more terrible things that he could enjoy because that's how he could live with himself from then on. He'd rather continue to be a destructive, sadistic, unrepentant bastard than own up to his mistakes. If his backstory serves to explain and enhance his monstrosity rather than mitigate it with anything sympathetic or redeeming, than he's still in this trope.

The Axolotl also pretty much ends his poem by saying that the only way Bill can be redeemed at all is to...not be Bill anymore. After invoking the Axolotl's name (which Bill did), the soul that was formerly Bill would be reincarnated in "another place, another time" and that new individual would make amends for his past life's crimes in his own life. Bill Cipher himself, though, was irredeemable.

edited 18th Sep '16 10:23:45 PM by ANewMan

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#68008: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:13:08 AM

I'd also like to point out that regretting the actions done in the past isn't always a disqualifier since its possible that the CM no longer regrets it. Reaver after the destruction of Oakvale or Light Yagami after killing some motorcyclist come to mind.

edited 19th Sep '16 6:14:35 AM by Awesomekid42

BigglesTh9 Since: Jul, 2011
#68009: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:18:10 AM

I'm sill a [tup] on D'Arby, but it looks like the consensus is cut.

As far as other candidates from Jo Jo go, I'm happy to do an effort post on Gray Fly.

edited 19th Sep '16 6:19:38 AM by BigglesTh9

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#68010: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:40:43 AM

[up] Go for it,
As for Dwarfstar, if he was a cut he'll be cut when the new Secret Six tree supersedes the old one.

NNinja from Solar system, Milky way galaxy Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#68011: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:46:40 AM

Man i missed so much these two days. I'm not going to vote on any bad guys i don't know. That being said let's move to Ace Attorney. I didn't expect Spirit of Justice to be discussed until thursday, but since it's alreadfy here.

Dahlia on steroids a.k.a. Ga'ran gets [tup] from me.I was going to say that the non-bad things she did were motivated by pragmatism but i think someone already said that.

As for Roger, someone here said that you don't get CM badge for targeting one person. I feel a need to point out that we did have AA villain that did just that: Engarde. he only was at odds with Corrida, and all he did was to either hurt Corrida, or get away with hurting him(Corrida himself wasn't angel either). however he DID get Inpax, Andrews and Maya caught in the crossfire between them, and he made the CM. Roger also had feud with one person, Magnifi. And he pursued Revenge by Proxy targeting Trucy and also got Manov and whole WAA caught in flames. As for the Jerkass Has a Point and/or Freudian Excuse he has Magnifi thre him out after he tried to get on act behind his back after specifically telling him he's not ready. Considering that magic trics performed by Gramaryes are dangerous, and Thalassa almost got killed because of someone else's mistake Magnifi's decision is entirely understandable. So no, being pissed of at someone's resonable decision as Freudian Excuse for destroying teenage girls life doesn't cut it.That being said i'm not entirely sure that his level of evilness make it to CM level, so i'll hold my vote for now.

About Anime villains: White's 99% of evilness is Offscreen Villainy, we've actually seen him killing Mia framing Maya and later Phoenix. But since he didn't get any Adaptational Heroism and it was enough to CM him in games i'm not against. Karma is disqualified for having Pet the Dog moments in Turnbout Promise, plus with his role in Hammond's murder cut out there is no known malice in adopting Miles, with only Gregory's death on him by no means he makes it, and i still say that his prosecution is Offstage Villainy meets Punch-Clock Villain. I was thinking of bringing up Engarde myself but it's too early,first season of anime ends in a week and after that there is two week rule, then we may discuss it.

[nja]

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#68012: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:56:29 AM

@ACW Also in LokSat's entry, investigation is misspelled.

I take it we're just gonna drop Juno now?

I'm sorry. I know I said the Charlie's Angels 2011 effort posts were coming last week, but I didn't find the time, so I'll try to do them this week.

Yes, Supergirl is in the same universe as Arrow and The Flash.

edited 19th Sep '16 7:57:07 AM by futuremoviewriter

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#68013: Sep 19th 2016 at 8:00:21 AM

[up] Fixed that. What's Juno from again?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#68014: Sep 19th 2016 at 8:39:25 AM

@Awesomekid 42: Exactly. That's part of why Ignored Epiphany exists.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#68015: Sep 19th 2016 at 9:06:52 AM

Hmm, I understand now what that poem and Axolot was meaning to say. I just saw his trope page and was like "Wtf?" but now that it's been explained to me I can see it wasn't really anything mitigating, if anything now I see Bill as more of a Monster.

edited 19th Sep '16 9:07:46 AM by username2527

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#68017: Sep 19th 2016 at 9:18:59 AM

[up][up][up][up]True Lies. Her vote is still 6-7 against.

"It's a good thing you're paying me a lot of money."

"Because they're very well-funded raving psychotics and I'm getting a lot of money. What did you think I cared about their cause? Or yours? Not at all."

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#68018: Sep 19th 2016 at 10:04:03 AM

Not that it matters at this point, but I'll give a [tup] to keeping D'arby.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#68019: Sep 19th 2016 at 10:05:50 AM

@ACW Oh was the write up for the Asset added to the drafts page so you could edit it? I didn't do it for the record, but I was just checking because it was done around the time I effort posted Juno.

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#68020: Sep 19th 2016 at 10:09:42 AM

Abstain on D'Arby. I brought him up a while back thinking about he doesn't count since, despite the fact that he has trapped 15 people in And I Must Scream situations, his actions weren't shown in as dark light as for example the likes of J. Geil or Angelo etc. Heck, he doesn't even get a proper punishment for his atrocities other than having his ass kicked by Jotaro and his possible death or final defeat is never confirmed (unlike the other CM candidates in the series). So now, I really can't decide what to think of him. He is pretty heinous but then again the heinous standard in general in the Jo Jo universe is pretty high. He's definitely not as over the top sadistic as far as the other candidates in the same universe but then again there are more than one ways to pass the borderline of what defines a CM in the said work.

I'm also playing Spirit of Justice currently and on the verge of finishing the final case so I can't yet vote for this game's Big Bad. As for Roger Retinz, I'm gonna give [tdown] since he's pretty much just a watered down version of Matt Engade with a smaller bodycount and a dumb Freudian Excuse.

edited 19th Sep '16 10:25:48 AM by Kookosbanaani

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#68022: Sep 19th 2016 at 10:35:59 AM

Just a reminder that I'll be seeing if anybody from 22 Bullets counts today. I'm quite excited, since the movie looks really damn good.

edited 19th Sep '16 10:36:34 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#68023: Sep 19th 2016 at 10:53:42 AM

I don't think the Asset was ever written up (he never REALLY got a complete effortpost I don't think).
Are the other 5 JoJo entries still solid keeps?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#68024: Sep 19th 2016 at 11:01:54 AM

Doesn't really matter, but I counted over 20 victims of D'arby when I re read his story arc.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#68025: Sep 19th 2016 at 11:14:56 AM

Okay, leaving 20+ victims in an And I Must Scream State? I've changed my vote from keep to DEFINITELY keep.

edited 19th Sep '16 11:15:05 AM by ACW


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