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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#6726: Jan 9th 2013 at 12:49:07 PM

Have we analyzed any of the American Dad examples yet? Anyway, I nuked both additions with notes.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:50:17 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6727: Jan 9th 2013 at 12:50:36 PM

Yes. Specific places can be found via the Google search mentioned in the OP.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#6728: Jan 9th 2013 at 12:50:51 PM

[up][up]I think so- I'm guessing that "Series Runs on Black Comedy" rule would probably disqualify them.

Btw, I hope it is not a problem, but I recently deleted an example from Vorkosigan Saga that seemed like an easy cut. Sorry for not bringing it up here first.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:51:20 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6729: Jan 9th 2013 at 12:51:25 PM

Why did it seem like an easy cut? Explanations are everything.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#6730: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:00:28 PM

I checked the history; it seems that the consensus was generally to disqualify American Dad! as Black Comedy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#6731: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:04:23 PM

[up][up]Well, here's the example. Again, apologies for not bringing it up here:

  • Richars Vorrutyer would probably qualify in any normal setting. How he treated his cousin Lady Donna, even when they were children, makes it impossible for anyone to feel the slightest bit of sympathy for him when Miles, Ivan, and the now-trans Lord Dono work in concert to publicly take his ass down. Given his in-series competition for Complete Monsterhood (see above), though, he barely qualifies as an understudy.

The example itself comments that while in other series, the character would (supposedly) qualify, but is small potatoes compared to other series villains.

Basically, the Vorkosigan Saga is sort of Genre Busting- it is a Space Opera/ Military Science Fiction series, but it has persistant comedy of manners elements, and some entries are more along the lines of cosy detective stories (think Lord Peter Wimsey)- which is the case for the one where Richars Vorrutyer features.

As a result of this, the series has some villains who are on a Ramsay Bolton level of evil- you'd describe them with some combination of "sadistic serial rapist and mass murderer" (in the more Space Opera entries), but also some that are your garden variety scheming scumbag (in the more detective story entries). So, if you measure villains of the latter type against the former, they are far from sufficiently heinous.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:06:14 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#6732: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:20:47 PM

@6609 I was actually reticent on Angra Mainyu. The reason that I was more willing on Haman and Tantalus is because they were human and had clearly defined atrocities. The problem as we start sorting through divinities is how many of them come off as generic God of Evil cases, as well as how many of them just have generic "they're said to do this" attached to them instead of concrete stories. It's one thing to say "Lamashtu is blamed for miscarriage," but it's another entirely to point to Tantalus and say that he specifically killed his son Pelops, cooked him, and served him to Zeus. One is backstory, one is the heart of the story.

Honestly, if I'm forced to pick between letting in examples like what was written up for Lamashtu or cutting all of the previous myth and religion figures, I'd lean towards the latter, because it'd result in a stronger and less controversial trope.

On TC, you should have specified that he was mentally handicapped and thus potentially not understanding the moral implications. You just said handicapped initially, which had me thinking that you wanted to disqualify him for being in a wheelchair.

@6626 I discussed The Godfather in @2034.

@6630 I wouldn't even go that far. Flat Character doesn't automatically mean "bad character" or even "undeveloped character." It means "unchanging character." And even then, Complete Monster is not automatically a Flat Character. There have been plenty of cases where a character's first appearance didn't have them qualify - but as the character evolved, they turned into one.

@6660 McDaggett is the only one that I'd keep.

@6661 I would definitely cut both until such time as someone comes in to explain those two. I have questions about what else Sora does to qualify; I'm not so sure that is sufficient.

@6662 Honestly, I'm tempted to say that they should all be cut to have folks come in here to explain them.

@6667 From everything I've read, Deadpool was driven to that based on mental conditioning from Psycho-Man (who just wanted DP to become a lackey, not murdering everyone, so that's a bit of Gone Horribly Wrong). I'd argue that entry should be cut for lacking moral agency.

@6670 Honestly, if folks are too lazy to use the search function to find where we previously discussed villains (like the recent part about The Godfather), they're going to be too lazy to go over a list in the early posts.

@6683 Everything that you describes happens in the backstory, and thus falls under Offscreen Villainy. So, no.

@6695 Based on the entries alone, I'd cut Dan. I have serious questions about someone actively trying to kill someone else via childbirth - unless you secretly implanted a fetus that spits razor blades or the like into a woman, I don't think you could actively attempt Death by Childbirth (I could see intentionally doing Worst Aid during childbirth, but that's different). Chalkin and Falconsbane are both clearly trying to steal each others' cake... beyond that Chalkin sounds like a generic Evil Overlord and Falconsbane doesn't apparently actually do anything evil; he's just said to be. Ax the whole thing until someone can explain it.

@6705 I could get behind a version of Lycaon that cites Ovid specifically. It's also a bit easier to accept non-divine beings from myth than divine ones.

@6707 Wait... rape to death? But... how the... with that... and whut? I don't even understand how that's even possible on a sheer "physical possibility" level. Perhaps this speaks to one area where I'm blissfully sheltered. Anyhow, if said "rape to death" is an onscreen act, I'm willing to allow Fax. Still, I'm inclined to grab a doll, point to its head, and tell the nice judge where that entire entry touched me inappropriately.

@6712 If you feel the need to hide the entire entry, I can't be bothered to vote for it.

@6723 Agree to cut all of those.

@6726 I'm tempted to vote to auto-cut all examples from The Simpsons for being Played for Laughs. As for American Dad - I will note that sister series Family Guy did eventually get in one example played completely straight (from what I read of the example, a fairly Anvilicious episode, but that's no disqualifier). I'm more likely than not going to vote against an American Dad example, but Seth MacFarlane has a history of slipping a legit example in.

@6731 At the very least, it doesn't actually list anything he does. While I would ask that you bring examples in this thread, the fact that the entry basically says that other villains are worse make it sound like he's overshadowed and should be cut.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#6733: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:24:21 PM

It's been a while since I've read Heart of Darkness, but Kurtz doesn't have much screentime (for lack of a better term). Most of his characterization comes from other characters' opinions of him. Kurtz's actual motives are never really cleared up, though his Famous Last Words ("The horror, the horror"), indicate that he probablynote  feels remorse.

I'd say cut him.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:25:38 PM by lrrose

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6734: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:24:31 PM

Oh, right, and Ambar's post on Berne from Acts Of Caine

I've read the series, though not in a while. I do remember Berne is a sadistic sociopath and psychotic who derives tons of pleasure from gruesomely killing his prey, kills a ton of people, and is a rapist to boot who uses it as an interrogation tactic.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#6735: Jan 9th 2013 at 1:28:18 PM

@32 Footsteps: First, you didn't read my post in its entirety; Falconsbane is from an entirely different series. I probably need to go fix that on the Monster.Literature page before it causes more confusion. [Edit: done]

Second, as I said, Fax rapes Gemma, hoping to induce premature labor. Whether that's technically possible or not, I don't know; the series suffers from a bit of Values Dissonance and McCaffrey may or may not have had all her biology facts straight. The fact is that she's in primitive conditions with virtually no access to medical care, is already highly stressed from a forced road trip, and she bears someone who might potentially be the heir to Ruatha Hold.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:32:28 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#6736: Jan 9th 2013 at 2:53:37 PM

Vorrutyer from Vorkosigan Saga? No. On a world where politics is often literally cut-throat, he doesn't actually attempt to kill anyone, though he may have helped the old Count along. He may have also drowned Donna/Dono's puppy as a child, but that's off-screen. He does attempt to have Dono's brand-new male genitalia removed, but he's part of the conservative party which is opposed to newfangled off-world technology like sex changes, and he makes sure that the team which attempts the castration has sufficient medical supplies that Dono won't be permanently injured—just encouraged to return to being a female, and discouraged from unfeminine "meddling" in politics. (Plus, the attempt fails.)

At the end, one character even says something along the lines of "your mistake wasn't what you tried to do—your mistake was getting caught." If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about how his heinousness compares to the standards of the series, I don't know what will. :)

edited 9th Jan '13 2:54:05 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6737: Jan 9th 2013 at 2:54:48 PM

@6732

I was planning on citing Ovid's version of Lycaon specifically. On the subject of divinities, I understand your caution. There's a reason why I myself am witholding judgement on Lamashtu, and why I only added Apophis to the sandbox after the vote seemed to be moving in favour of him (and will cheerfully remove him before implementation if the vote goes against). That said, Angra Mainyu/Ahriman is one of the few deities I can think of who definitely deserves a place. In my original post on the subject I noted a lengthy list of actual crimes that he committed, which range from the petty to the cosmic in terms of scale. If you read through various Zoroastrian texts he also has a relatively well-defined personality. He's arrogant, spiteful, resents his counterpart, Ahura Mazda immensely, gets a kick out of his crimes, and is very self-aware. Even if we determined that most divinities can't hack it, I would ask for an exception for him, since none of our major concerns about divinities apply. His evil, just like that of Tantalus, Lycaon, or Haman, is at the heart of the story. As for having to choose between letting something like Lamashtu in, or axing the page, luckily we don't have to?

I'll specify mentally handicapped next time. That said, I'd never try to cut somebody for being in a wheelchair, missing a leg, or anything like that.

@Lightysnake

Could you maybe expand that entry for Acts of Caine then? The current one sounds a little too much like Hero Killer, and not enough like CM (though obviously the two can overlap).

@Fighteer

I'd support letting Fax stay in. Those other two though, I don't know about.

edited 9th Jan '13 7:09:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#6738: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:19:59 PM

Whoa.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

We need to talk about Sabretooth again.

A comic came out today, the conclusion to a miniseries set in the past, that actually gave him a Freudian Excuse. He snapped after a mind-controlling mutant forced him to eviscerate his own girlfriend. General consensus is the mini was really bad, really out of character, and will probably never be mentioned again, but I think we should perhaps discuss it.

edited 9th Jan '13 3:20:22 PM by HamburgerTime

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#6740: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:24:31 PM

I've been taking notes on some discussions on some shows such as MLP: Fi M. It's been said that the show's too lighthearted, however, I disagree. The show has its very own Radar page, and if you remember, adult men and women watch the show besides its intended audience. If the terms brony or pegasister rings any bells. And, because of its Radar page, the show has successfully managed to get away with a few things such as the Windigoes burning to death, or Sombra turning into crystal and exploding. We see a bird turn into ashes (even thogh it was a phoenix), and lastly, we have an episode where Twilight imagines that Fluttershy snaps a bear's neck. Other things to support my evidence would be the website Equestria Daily, and a You Tube video that ispretty much a thank you letter from bronies. I just don't see how it's supposed to be a light hearted show. Though, explain to me how it is.

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#6741: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:26:02 PM

It has a large Periphery Demographic, as does Pokemon.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6742: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:29:13 PM

For starters, Radar is widely misused so it's a bad reference.

Also, we are discussing Complete Monster examples here, not the darkness of shows.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#6743: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:32:56 PM

[up]All examples from the work in question have been declared DOA due to its tone, so discussing that tone is actually relevant.

On the other hand, giving the looooooooooong history of "my pet show is too for adults!" that Periphery Demographics have engaged in on this site (a main reason, incidentally, for the aforementioned abuse of Getting Crap Past the Radar), I'm not going to find arguments of this nature very plausible. And especially not when they're focused on a work that has been nothing but trouble for this thread time and again.

tl;dr: We're not including Complete Monster examples from My Little Pony. Get over it.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6744: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:34:56 PM

[up][up][up][up]Because it is a lighthearted show. The fact that it has a large periphery demographic, does not make it any darker. It's an entire show built around the notion that friendship can and will change your life. Most antagonists are pretty harmless, the ones that are haven't killed anybody (most of them haven't even tried), and there are real questions as to whether any of them can qualify as a) irredeemable, or b) heinous by the standards of the story. To see our point, contrast the actions of any of the show's villains with those of say, the villains of the DCAU. Or the 90's Spider-Man tv show. Or the Avatar shows. Or any one of a number of slightly darker children's programs.

@Hamburger Time

I'm going to suggest we wait and see if that excuse if ever incorporated into another storyline. If it is, we worry about it then.

edited 9th Jan '13 3:35:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#6745: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:35:04 PM

Granted it has been a while since I read the book and I was rather young at the time I don't remember Lady Gemma being raped to death. She went into labour at a dinner and unless I really missed something Fax raping his wife wasn't on screen. I thought that he was intentionally keeping her pretty much perpetually pregnant in the hopes that with advancing age she would eventually die in childbirth. I remember him being a very bad guy but with almost nothing of that being onscreen.

willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#6746: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:35:16 PM

I am not sure I would consider Sabretooth a CM myself. He is 99%. There is a lot of flux for different writers though. Like he has been portrayed as feeling different ways about different people, especially his various flings/ girlfriends, IIRC. Also the extent to which he is a crazed murder-junkie changes around as well.

I have only read a handful of books with Sabretooth in them, but here is some history from Wikipedia:

"Sabretooth's name, or what is believed to be his real name, is Victor Creed.[10] Sabretooth's memories have been tampered with by clandestine organizations such as Weapon X and so much of what appears to be his past is not of credible account.[volume & issue needed] The clearest accounts of Victor's childhood begin with him murdering his brother Luther over a piece of pie.[11] His father then chains him in the basement like an animal and systematically pulls out Victor's elongated canines, which perennially grow back. Victor begs his mother to let him go, but she does not.[11] Years pass until Victor eventually gnaws off his own hand in order to escape the basement and murders his parents.[11] However, it is later revealed that Sabretooth only killed his father whereas he took care of his mother financially and visited her frequently until her death.[12]"

"In the Weapon X: First Class series, it is revealed that Creed was Professor Xavier's first choice to join his school before Logan.[16]"

"Ferro takes control of Creed and coerces him to kill Silver Fox, this time for real. Psi-Borg then apparently consumed Creed.[33]

Soon, suffering from severe bloodlust, Sabretooth hires telepathic mutant Birdy to help him keep his urges in check by providing what he calls "the glow," a psychic blast that satiates his bloodlust and numbs the pain of his suppressed memories as a youth, allowing himself control for short periods"

"A short time later, Birdy is killed by Sabretooth's grown son Graydon, who now has a hatred for mutants, especially his father. Without "the glow," Sabretooth slips into a murderous killing spree."

"Maverick approaches the X-Men and in Japan, and an ancient telepath, comatose since the nuclear bomb that destroyed Hiroshima, mind-links and the team discovers Creed's psychosis was rooted in his time as a CIA operative: on a mission, he slaughtered a target, his wife (a "frail" for Creed), and a little boy. The look in the boy's eyes has followed Creed ever since. "

"Xavier is confident this means Creed values human life, and there is hope for the mutant."

edited 9th Jan '13 3:49:04 PM by willthiswork

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6747: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:39:31 PM

Sabretooth is remarkably consistent in that writers portray him as a monstrous, irredeemable murderer almost all the time. Does he lack agency? No. Is he heinous? Absolutely. Is he devoid of altruism? Yes, except for a tiny percentage of writers.

Given how many girlfriends he kills and eats? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they're not particularly important to him.

Claremont set his tone remarkably well, and almost every writer since has followed suite. an idiotic miniseries that absolutely ignores everything about the character before that will never again be referenced doesn't make him less of a CM, it makes that a writer who didn't do his homework.

EDIT: Where do I BEGIN dissecting what's wrong with that entry?

1. That Wolverine retcon of visiting his mother? Yeah, not buying it. That's writing over a solid 20 years of continuity in a recent storyline that hasn't been referenced again.

2. Again, additions from very recent series that have already been overwritten in places

3. Xavier's belief in 'Oh, this means he respects life!' is absolute trash. Sabretooth remembers every kill because he enjoys every kill. Xavier is shown to be dead wrong. I think Mike Carey said it best: ""I'm not going to try and show a heroic side to Sabretooth's nature; I’m not going to retcon him so that there are reasons for his actions that make him forgivable. The things he's done are not forgivable and he can't be redeemed."

4. In the same Wikipedia entry, they point out the only way to make him 'nicer' was to actively lobotomize him, and after he recovered from that, he tried to eat Psylocke

5. Going further, his most recent appearance in Uncanny X Force had him sinking to new lows of evil without a shred of redemption in sight.

edited 9th Jan '13 3:58:53 PM by Lightysnake

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#6748: Jan 9th 2013 at 3:52:48 PM

@ 6732 Angra Mainu isn't just a random God of Evil because that is all he can be. He clearly made his choice to spite his brother. He isn't Evil because he was made of evil or the personification of evil. He is an powerful being who chose evil. I think that he still has moral agency and shouldn't be excluded for being a God.

[up][up] If Sabertooth hired somebody to make it so that he wouldn't go on killing sprees I am inclined to think that he has good points and should be cut on that basis

edited 10th Jan '13 4:17:29 PM by SophiaLonesoul

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6749: Jan 9th 2013 at 4:00:34 PM

[up] I really don't like people going off of Wikipedia info that's faulty at best. As I pointed out, this is basically from one very recent run of Wolverine that has not been incorporated at large and is, by and large, being ignored by Remender and other writers.

I'd be shocked if there's a single villain in all of comics some writers didn't try to make their personal wounded puppy at a certain point and that includes the Red Skull.

Furthermore, this run? Let's also go over what Wiki doesn't cover in general:

1. Sabretooth is revealed to be faking being nicer

2. He proceeds to try to murder both Boomer and Psylocke.

3. His attempt to get 'The Glow' isn't based off of morality. It's that his instincts are overpowering his reason and he can't control himself any more. This is pragmatic more than anything. It's not "I don't want to hurt anyone!" It's "I don't want to become a feral animal. Still love killing people, though."

He gets what he wants after Wolverine stabbing him in the skull frees him from dependence on The Glow. What does he do? Promptly still acts like a murderous psychotic.

edited 9th Jan '13 4:05:39 PM by Lightysnake

willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#6750: Jan 9th 2013 at 4:08:05 PM

^ *shug* IDK, like I said, I have not actually read a huge number of the comics, I just never got a CM vibe off of him. If you read the books mentioned you probably know more than I do.


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