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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#67401: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:23:07 PM

[up][up] This is true. But overall, her crimes boil down to this:

She tried to torture/kill two people.

She helped terrorists acquire a nuclear bomb for money.

That's about it.

edited 10th Sep '16 12:24:08 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67402: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:25:55 PM

[up]Multiple nuclear bombs for multiple attacks. That raises the stakes.

Every innocent that died or would have died, she had a hand in. Plus, Crispian Davison from You're Next didn't kill anyone himself, but still had a hand in everything and he counts.

[down]That makes it 4-3 for or 4-4.

edited 10th Sep '16 12:33:20 PM by futuremoviewriter

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#67403: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:29:40 PM

[tup] Juno. Just barely hits the heinous standard for me.

Shadow?
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#67404: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:35:05 PM

[up][up] Yes, but Aziz was the one who wanted to set them off in order to kill millions, and at the end of the film, he tries to kill Harry's teenage daughter. Nothing that Juno does is much worse than what Aziz does. That's how I see it.

Juno gave Aziz Pandora's box after he asked her for it.

Aziz was the one who planned on opening it.

They're evenly matched, as far as I can tell.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67405: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:40:49 PM

[up]He had no excuse, but believed what he was doing had a purpose and was for the better of his country. She on the other hand sold out her own country for cash.

Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#67406: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:49:53 PM

I have two questions.

1. Can a really poorly written protagonist count as a Complete Monster? I ask because Patroklos from Soulcalibur V acts worse than some of the villains in that game.

2. Does Demon King Piccolo from Dragon Ball count as one, or is he the same entity as Piccolo Jr? Because Piccolo Jr's worst crime was try to kill Goku, but aside from that, he never really did anything on the same level of heinousness as his father before his Heel–Face Turn.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#67407: Sep 10th 2016 at 12:53:33 PM

[up] Yes to your first question. We actually have an example.

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#67409: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:26:36 PM

"while Aziz is the main villain and she's secondary to him, I think it's appropriate to say she shares the Big Bad status with him."

If you don't see the contradiction there, you don't know what Big Bad means. She's not his equal in the bomb scheme, she's someone he hired.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#67410: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:31:26 PM

BTW is there anyone who also happened to watched KR Gaim? Cuz I need some help cuz I have a hard time writing on Ryoma Sengoku's summary as a CM please.

edited 10th Sep '16 1:43:15 PM by n3xus

This is all Zi-O's fault!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#67411: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:43:52 PM

The more I hear, the more certain I become: [tdown] on Juno Skinner.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67412: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:51:18 PM

[up][up]I meant to word it differently. You know what I meant.

It's firmly 4 in favor and 5 against now.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#67413: Sep 10th 2016 at 1:58:45 PM

No, I don't. Sharing responsibility for something does not mean that their share must be equal. It's not a Big Bad Duumvirate. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to deck her in the face when she draws attention to their operation, order her around, or stop her from shooting a hostage.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67414: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:02:02 PM

[up]He has the power because she's backing him, because she's profiting from it and is tolerating it.

edited 10th Sep '16 2:20:09 PM by futuremoviewriter

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#67415: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:09:56 PM

The plan and the execution of it ultimately fall on Aziz's hands. Compliance doesn't mean equal standing.

edited 10th Sep '16 2:10:08 PM by Scraggle

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#67416: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:12:33 PM

I think we're just bouncing back and forth here at this point. >__<

Given futuremoviewriter's effortpost on Juno, and everything else discussed recently, anyone else feel like voting on her? It could still go either way.

edited 10th Sep '16 2:12:50 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#67417: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:20:29 PM

@futuremoviewriter: You were talking to my post right?

edited 10th Sep '16 2:20:38 PM by n3xus

This is all Zi-O's fault!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67418: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:24:11 PM

[up]Pertaining to the one who was not a firm no, I meant nrjxll. Now they are a no though, so 4-5 is the tally now. My last two posts were directed at Morgenthaler.

edited 10th Sep '16 2:25:25 PM by futuremoviewriter

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#67419: Sep 10th 2016 at 2:26:16 PM

Yeah, Mansfield sounds like a very extreme WIE.
I'll create a new "Elseworlds" group for He-Man, like we did for Batman.

n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#67420: Sep 10th 2016 at 3:01:27 PM

[up][up] Alright, thanks for letting me know.

BTW I guess this is how I summarized Ryoma Sengoku/KR Duke as a CM, based on my observation on the character, what do you guys think of it so far?

  • Ryoma Sengoku/Kamen Rider Duke, the creator of most Armored Rider gears, is a Psychopathic Manchildish brilliant, yet amoral, Mad Scientist who initially works as a researcher in the Yggdrasill Corporation's R&D division. Other than his research, he has no concern about the lives of others as his goal is to grasp the Forbidden Fruit in order to become a god by any means necessarily as he started to manipulate others to do the bidding for him and then betraying them once they became useless to him. Ryoma's countless crimes were added even more during the first Gaim Gaiden series as he intentionally let the Forbidden Ringo Lockseed, his very first creation, to be stolen by Touka Akatsuki to observe its powers before he murders her and then tricking the power-hungry Alfred by providing the prototype Dragon Fruits Energy Lockseed to him which causes Alfred to become a mindless Over Lord Inves. He also happens to be a Dirty Coward who uses cheap tactics on his opponents, this solidifies even further where he abused his already powerful rider form by hacking his own Genesis Driver and then whenever he faces another Genesis Driver users, he uses a kill switch to disable his opponent's Genesis Drivers so they cannot fight back against him. Once the Over Lords were dealt with, Ryoma has successfully manipulated Mitsuzane Kureshima into killing Kouta Kazuraba by providing him the life-threatening Yomotsuheguri Lockseed before he revealed to Mitsuzane that his promise to save Mai Takatsukasa's life was a lie, as he kills her cold-blooded by dissecting the Forbidden Fruit from her heart, serving as a catalysts to Kaito Kumon's transformation into the Over Lord Inves Lord Baron before he received a vicious beat-down by Kaito as Ryoma falls to his death.

edited 10th Sep '16 5:31:56 PM by n3xus

This is all Zi-O's fault!
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#67421: Sep 10th 2016 at 3:56:23 PM

[tup] to Ming the Merciless (DEATH TO MING!), Nate Huckley, and General Aleksander Kodoroff.

[tdown] to the Blind Man, Tarn (fun fact; the guy who created Tarn says he imagines Keith David as the character's voice), and Juno Skinner.

As for CMs with galactic-scale bodycounts, The Master (Anthony Ainley) once accidentally wiped out a quarter of the universe. I don't think that's the biggest death toll for a CM, but still, that's a truly massive loss of life.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#67422: Sep 10th 2016 at 4:05:17 PM

[up][up] Too long. Writeups shouldn't be plot summaries.

[down] You're probably also going to have to axe the pothole to Magnificent Bastard; that's a YMMV trope on its own.

edited 10th Sep '16 4:24:12 PM by Scraggle

n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#67423: Sep 10th 2016 at 4:07:35 PM

[up]I guess I need to shorten that one.

EDIT: I just trimmed down Ryoma a bit.

EDIT 2: I see, btw I just removed it.

edited 10th Sep '16 4:28:15 PM by n3xus

This is all Zi-O's fault!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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