During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I'm abstaining on Memnon. He kinda sounds like a Knight Templar but at the very worst of it.
@ Laptop Guy: Kane Bullard DEFFINATELY does not count. He blackmailed one person, that's it.
Turner had the potential to qualify; there was a malpractice incident at his hospital where 14 patients died, and he seemed to not feel any sympathy for the dead patients and/or their family and friends at all, only caring about the serious blow this did to his reputation as a doctor and his business ("My patients aren't coming to see me"). It is also believed that he caused the car accident that killed Ini and injured Mimi, but there is no proof. He went to a spirit channeling to try and summon Mimi (it was thought that she was the one who was killed)'s spirit and make her confess (at gunpoint) to causing the incident. Mimi claims in court that Grey was overworking her, and that that is the only reason why she ended up accidentally causing the incident due to sleep depravation. However, we have no idea how much he was overworking her. Because of this and the fact that we don't really know if he caused the car accident, he can't qualify.
Morgan worked with Mimi to have Turner killed, and than framed her own niece, Maya, for the crime. After her imprisonment, Morgan contemplated killing her daughter, Dalia Hawthorne, who shared a cell with her, but instead came up with a plan for them to both get what they wanted, the death of Maya. After Dalia was executed, she was supposed to possess Pearl and use her body to kill Maya. Anyone who's played the games knows how that went. It was decided that Morgan did not qualify due to her being a small fish in a big pond, though I'd argue that trying to frame her own niece for murder and trying to have her killed by someone wearing the skin of her cousin is pretty heinous, especially since Pearl would have had to have dealt with the fact that her own body was used to kill her cousin, and she could have gotten arrested for it. Some people say that Morgan cared about Pearl, but considering what that ordeal would have been like for her, I doubt that. I personally think Morgan could be worth a re discussion, but whatever.
jjjI'd say Morgan's heinous enough. My issue is her relationship towards her daughter Pearl. We only have Dahlia's word that she doesn't care about Pearl, and I wouldn't use the words of a liar extraordinaire as good enough reason to establish someone as a CM.
Definite no on Bullard and Turner though.
edited 6th Sep '16 2:34:45 PM by Awesomekid42
to the Asset.
While Dewey was without question the cold, sadistic bastard pulling the strings, the Asset had no compunction about any of the things he did. He's also a hypocrite at that. He murdered Bourne's father and has the gall to be angry at him when he exposed Blackbriar and nearly got him killed? Glass house, meet stones. He only cared for his own well-being and his warped beliefs, much like Dewey.
Killing Nicky was especially egregious. Not only because I was strongly against the idea from the start (I loved the character and it was so obvious she was gonna die), but because while Dewey ordered her death for his own agenda (still horrible), the Asset killed her out of spite too just to hurt Bourne.
I'd almost suggest putting them together in one entry, but I'd say they're separate enough for each to count on their own.
Oh and when did Byer from Bourne Legacy express remorse? I saw squat.
edited 6th Sep '16 4:20:10 PM by futuremoviewriter
Well, since Redd White is now being made a keeper despite having been denied several times before, and since it was done due to an effortpost, I guess I might as well do one for Morgan just to be sure:
Who is Morgan Fey?
Morgan Fey is the Evil Aunt of Maya Fey, the mother of Pearl Fey, and the secondary antagonist of the second case of the second game, and the Greater-Scope Villain of the final case of the third game. She was hoping to become the heir of the Kurain Channeling Technique, but her sister Misty Fey's superior channeling powers allowed Misty to usurp the position from Morgan. The village looked down on her for losing out to Misty and her family became a powerless branch family. Because of this, Morgan's husband left her and Kurain Village, taking both daughters with him. These events left Morgan a bitter and vengeful woman. She decided to make sure that her daughter, Pearl, would be chosen to take over after her death instead of Maya.
What does she do?
Morgan conspires with Mimi to murder Dr. Turner Grey and frame Maya (her own niece) so has to have her locked away so she can never become the heir, and Pearl will get that position. Morgan than went to court to lie and implicate Maya. Phoenix manages to uncover the truth, and Morgan and Mimi are both arrested.
In prison Morgan met up with her estranged daughter from her first marriage, Dalia. Morgan considered murdering her estranged daughter for reasons that I do not believe are ever really explained, but instead decided to work with her to kill Maya. Dalia wanted to kill Maya to get revenge on Maya's sister Mia for uncovering her murders and getting her sent to prison. The plan was that after Dalia's execution, she would possess Pearl's body and kill Maya. The plan got screwed up, and it was Misty, Maya's mother, that ended up being killed. Maya was suspected of the death, but was proven not guilty.
Redeeming features or Freudian Excuse?
Morgan lost her status as heir of the Kurain Channeling Technique, her husband left her, and the village looked down on her for this. Sad, but her attempts to frame her own niece for murder, and later, to have her killed, makes it VERY difficult to sympathize with her. Several other villains have had worse things haapen to them, and they still counted (Leigh Emerson was gang raped in prison, for example).
As for redeeming features, it has been argued in the past that she cared for Pearl. I am not sure if she really did care about her. Morgan may have just wanted to get back her prestige. She may have only cared about what Pearl could have done for her. Dalia herself believed this. Despite Dalia's reputation as a liar, she may have been right. Before you argue that Morgan cared about Pearl because she was her daughter, let me remind you that she was considering murdering Dalia when she met up with her in prison, and Dalia was also her daughter. I know Dalia had been estranged, but still. Also, if the plan had gone down like it was supposed to have, Pearl could have easily been arrested for murder, nevermind how traumatized she would have been from that. So yeah, she had a motive beyond caring about her daughter, she could have gotten her arrested if her plan had worked like it was meant to, and she was considering killing one of her other daughters. Doesn't sound much like she cared about her to me.
Heinous standard?
As Laptop Guy said here
, most of the other killers have mitigating factors. While most of the villains on the series, CM page have one more murder than she does, I believe that trying to destroy your own family is a special kind of evil. She set up a murder of someone she barely knew, framed her own niece for it, contemplated killing her estranged daughter upon meeting her in prison (granted, Dalia was far from innocent, but still), and she tried to have Dalia use pearl's body to kill Maya.
Abstaining on Morgan.
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I don't find anything wrong with reproposing characters so long as counters to reasons why they didn't count beforehand are brought up, like with The Crooked Man from wolf among us, or Scar from lion king (who apparently used to be on definitely not a CM)
edited 6th Sep '16 5:09:10 PM by Awesomekid42
I think the driving question on Morgan is: Does she genuinely care about Pearl to want to have her be the next Kurain Grand Master? Or is she doing out of hate for Misty and her daughters and just wants it to not be Maya? Or maybe it's because Pearl being Grand Master means power for Morgan herself? Even if she was evil all elsewhere, being a loving mother towards Pearl would completely negate out CM status. We just need to see Morgan through Pearl's eyes and we should have our answer.
Morgan.
Also, there's this quote on Quotes.Complete Monster.
This quote sounds more "dickish" than "monstrously evil".
Why so serious?If we all say no on Morgan, then I guess I will withdraw my nomination of her. I agree, there's still some missing info on Turner Grey that could keep him off the list, and there's far too little known on Kane Bullard (though I got a hunch he was a nastier guy than Luke Atmey).
One question on Redd White, though: How was his relationship with April? Did he genuinely care about her was she just a pawn he would gladly throw to the wolves?
"While most of the villains on the series, CM page have one more murder than she does, I believe that trying to destroy your own family is a special kind of evil."
Except that even by focusing on just this standard, Morgan Fey would still need to try to kill three ex-boyfriends just to match Dahlia Hawthorne.

G-Editor: Lighty's doing that one...with him you have to learn to be patient