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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66126: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:33:42 PM

Well ladies and gentlemen, it's officially been two weeks since Suicide Squad came out. Let the discussion begin!

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#66127: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:34:59 PM

Don't feel it should be a long discussion: no one counts.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:35:33 PM by AustinDR

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#66128: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:40:36 PM

[up][up][up]No. I was thinking the fact that he's happy that his lieutenant is having a tender family moment with a child, was a disqualifying factor. It indicates to me that he cares about Chris on some level. Maybe not a very deep level, but still. The relationship seemed more to me than 'I enjoy hanging out with this person'.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66129: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:40:53 PM

[up][up]Along my thinking too. She clearly cared when Incubus was killed and wanted to rejoin him. With that, [tdown] to Enchantress. If it wasn't for that, she'd be the female Apocalypse.

[tdown] to Waller. She's a psycho, but she's also a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

On the other hand, I say wait and see on the Joker.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:44:06 PM by futuremoviewriter

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#66130: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:42:53 PM

The Joker genuinely loves Harley in this version. Hell, part of his plan was to bust her out of incarceration. Which he succeeds at.

It might be different in the director's cut, maybe.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:43:37 PM by AustinDR

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66131: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:46:44 PM

[up]I'm not entirely convinced that he actually cared about her. He might have just liked the fact that he'd made her to be like him, molded her in pretty much his own image.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#66132: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:48:14 PM

That could be the case, but I feel that it's too early to tell.

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#66133: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:48:42 PM

I find it curious that in a Evil vs Evil conflict, no one qualifies.

The "love" of Joker, can be the same kind of "love" that felt Kilgrave or Zoom.

We'll have to wait until the movie of Batfleck to be sure.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:06:45 PM by dantecito

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66134: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:49:03 PM

@Austin: Well, given that it's a reveal that he's the one who did it, I'd say yes.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66135: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:49:20 PM

It's not ambiguous in the film.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#66136: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:53:39 PM

In the theatrical cut of the movie we got, yes, Joker had some genuine form of love and fondness for Harley other than just her being his abused doormat, so he's clearly a [tdown].

Amanda Waller and Enchantress are also easy nos. [tdown]

edited 18th Aug '16 9:54:19 PM by ANewMan

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66137: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:58:27 PM

He emotionally manipulated her, gave her possible brain damage with the electro shock, convinced her to jump into the vat of chemicals knowing if she lived he could control her, abandoned her after crashing the car with them in it in the river. I'd be saying [tup] if it wasn't so early, but for now, I'm saying wait and see.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66138: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:59:57 PM

[up][up][up] I haven't seen the film. I should be doing so on Saturday. However, is what a different iteration of the work does really relevant? I'm specifically referencing the book.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:00:46 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66139: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:01:56 PM

[tdown]Amanda Waller, Enchantress, and theatrical cut Joker.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#66140: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:02:20 PM

[tdown] enchantress and Waller

I'm just gonna wait on the joker and see how things turn out later, but for now he clearly doesn't count

[down] that's the best way to put it honestly

edited 18th Aug '16 10:22:32 PM by Mediawatcher

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#66141: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:17:08 PM

[tdown] anyone from Suicide Squad.

Why so serious?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#66142: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:22:59 PM

As the person who volunteered to do the effortpost, yes, nobody counts.

To sum things up, Enchantress likely isn't given enough characterization and even barring that, she cares for her brother Incubus (who himself has nada in the way of characterization). Amanda Waller's a jackass but she doesn't approach the threshold of CM by a long-shot. And while Joker's relationship with Harley is enough to disqualify him (the relationship's dysfunctional but it's genuine on both sides, as need I remind you Joker pushed Harley out of a shot-down helicopter at the seeming cost of his own life; you seem to be conspicuously ignoring that, futuremoviewriter), I'd have to rule he's not even heinous enough anyways, especially when almost every member of the Squad is already demonstrated as a mass-murderer themselves - never mind the other villains he'll have to compete with.

So, easy discussion. Nobody's a keeper.

Now, should things turn out different in the director's cut - although I highly, highly doubt they will - I suppose I'll continue to take a look at any characters there. But considering the movie ends with Joker busting Harley out of prison and he's clearly going to have a continued presence through the rest of the DCU films, I'll ask nobody to get their hopes up.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:29:02 PM by Scraggle

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#66143: Aug 18th 2016 at 11:00:29 PM

That's pretty much my thoughts on the matter too.

And futuremoviewriter, no offense, but your argument only makes it seem like you have a bias and would readily vote up Joker simply because it's The Joker, as though he always has to be a CM. As far as I can tell, even The Killing Joke Joker we brought up earlier on the thread had less redeeming features and more heinous acts than Jared Leto's Joker.

edited 18th Aug '16 11:01:46 PM by ANewMan

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#66144: Aug 18th 2016 at 11:05:20 PM

Easy no on the Suicide Squad characters.

edited 18th Aug '16 11:06:49 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Loekman3 from Indonesia Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#66145: Aug 18th 2016 at 11:50:23 PM

[tdown] to Enchantress, Waller, and Joker.

edited 18th Aug '16 11:50:34 PM by Loekman3

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66147: Aug 19th 2016 at 12:56:10 AM

Alright, a few things:

  • Anyone willing to effortpost Kakuzawa, so we can settle it once and for all?
  • Webcomics deadling still the end of the month.

Found this at Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger:
  • Complete Monster: D, the Big Bad of Gaburincho of Music, is one of the most fearsome Deboss Knights in existence. As Deathryuger, he is responsible for kidnapping Meeko in an attempt to resurrect Tobaspino, steal two of the Zyudenryu (Ankydon and Bunpachy), and use the former as a Living Battery for Spinodai-Oh as part of his genocidal Evil Plan, only to be killed off by Kyoryu Red. Later returning in the series after escaping from Deboss Hell, D turns Meeko into his personal Necromancer, with the intention of making her the next Deathryuger. When the Kyoryugers thwarted his latest Evil Plan, D attempts to blow up the Earth by enlarging himself out of spite. When compared to the previous villainous Rangers, D is what Abare Killer would have been if he's an irredeemable asshole in the first place.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#66149: Aug 19th 2016 at 2:57:57 AM

[up] Elfen Lied baddie. Manga version doesn't count but his anime self might.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#66150: Aug 19th 2016 at 5:17:10 AM

Nobody in Suicide Squad counts. Even if the Enchantress has enough characterization, she cares about her brother, was saddened by his death, and asked to be sent to the same place as him. And I think the Enchantress's brother is pretty much a Generic Doomsday Villain

This version of Joker is an interesting case. Even though he tortured Harley, it seems that he does care about her. At one point in the movie, when Harley jumps into a vat of acid, he later jumps into the same vat out of worry for her, and later on, when they're on a helicopter that's about to get destroyed, the Joker pushes Harley off the helicopter to save her life even though she was perfectly willing to stay and die with Joker.

So [tdown] to all Suicide Squad villains.

edited 19th Aug '16 6:34:18 AM by Awesomekid42


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