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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#65602: Aug 9th 2016 at 11:13:05 PM

Are we seriously arguing over whether or not we should cut a serial-raping pyromaniac who also kills and/or rapes children just because he might have been in love with a brahmin that he also probably had sex with?

Seriously?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#65603: Aug 9th 2016 at 11:14:41 PM

[up] I'm actually arguing that he wasn't sexually involved with her. Just that he cared about her. I asked before if caring about a pet wasn't enough of a disqualifying factor, I was told it is enough of a disqualifying factor, so here we are.

kirbystarwarior Since: Apr, 2011
#65604: Aug 9th 2016 at 11:29:54 PM

Ugh. I really hate having him cut, but if caring about a pet disqualifies somebody from being a CM, [tdown] to Cook-Cook.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#65605: Aug 9th 2016 at 11:32:57 PM

I see no reason to cut Cook-Cook.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#65606: Aug 9th 2016 at 11:52:47 PM

[up]

Same reason for why we didn't include Future versions of Androids 17 and 18 and half the reason for why Morinth is on Definitely not a CM. Cook-Cook cares about somebody other than himself (albeit a pet rather than a sibling).

edited 9th Aug '16 11:58:34 PM by Awesomekid42

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#65607: Aug 10th 2016 at 12:48:27 AM

[tup] Avery. What happens to the father?
Thok: Please add to the drafts page.
I'm fine with revising Diana's entry.

edited 10th Aug '16 12:52:21 AM by ACW

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#65608: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:06:25 AM

[tdown] cook-cook

A child rapist is disqualified because he might love an animal, that is such a wierd thing to hear

edited 10th Aug '16 2:07:07 AM by Mediawatcher

snakeky-man Since: Jun, 2016
#65609: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:14:55 AM

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Queenie I think cook_cook is just mad that the player killed something that he thinks is useful to him

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#65610: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:18:46 AM

I don't see where the page implies that.

I also doubt that it's out of usefulness considering how he has two other brahmin, and won't take it nearly as bad if they're killed.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#65611: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:50:41 AM

Reading about Bravely Default, I found out that Fiore De Rosa redeems himself in the sequel. He can't count. Unless, someone familiar with the game can explain.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#65612: Aug 10th 2016 at 5:29:01 AM

[up] I'd heard about that. Can anyone confirm or deny?

snakeky-man Since: Jun, 2016
#65613: Aug 10th 2016 at 5:38:27 AM

[up] at one point in the first game the characters go to different worlds were their are different versions of the same people in their home world. so far only one version of Fiore redeem himself.

any way is their someone in the new game that counts as a cm?

edited 10th Aug '16 5:39:01 AM by snakeky-man

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#65614: Aug 10th 2016 at 6:48:40 AM

@65602: Tyk, you're my hero for that sentence alone.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65615: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:30:06 AM

I've already weighed in, but since people are STILL dragging out the discussion I feel it bears repeating: I see no reason to cut Cook Cook. Even if the dialogue was cut, the guy was developed with bestiality in mind. And even if we aren't taking it into consideration, I don't view his rage at Queenie's death as anything other than him being seriously pissed that a prized possession was taken from him.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#65616: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:51:19 AM

[up] Like I said before, I highly doubt he only got angry because Queenie was possession. He has two other brahmin that he doesn't go insane over if they're killed. Little Buster, a character who scouted and kept track on Cook-Cook's actions, even tells the player that Cook-Cook kills his own brahmin for fun but Queenie's the exception. (And Little Buster also makes no mention of Cook-Cook using Queenie for sex)

I fail to see how he was designed with bestiality in mind when the only implication of that was intentionally scrapped from the final product.

edited 10th Aug '16 7:52:46 AM by Awesomekid42

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#65617: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:09:23 AM

I'll repeat: Where's the proof he got mad because he loved Queenie?

Is this really the hill to make such a stand on?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#65618: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:14:58 AM

First of all, wouldn't the exact same thing apply for the opposite? No other reason was given in game for why he got angry over Queenie's death.

I also fail to see how the possession argument even makes sense considering how Cook-Cook kills his other brahmins for the fun of it, and tortured people we actually do know that he had sex with.

Anyway, Little Buster notes how he treats Queenie better than his other brahmin, and if the death of somebody drives the other person mad to the point where he can't distinguish friend from foe I'd say that's a sign that the latter would care about the deceased.

edited 10th Aug '16 8:17:14 AM by Awesomekid42

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#65619: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:37:36 AM

Since Jack's gotten enough votes, I wrote up his effortpost. I tried to keep it short and sweet for a change, please let me know if it will need expanding upon.

Homestuck:

  • Jack Noir, the Starter Villain of the series, goes From Nobody to Nightmare by murdering the Black Queen and stealing her prototyping ring. He gets worse and worse from there, racking up a body count in the thousands and killing several of the protagonists multiple times, as well as their guardians in cold blood. When given the opportunity he slaughters thousands of Aradiabots and all the trolls' dreamselves and destroys their planets, then proceeds to murder the last of the carapacians and attempts to destroy the frog manifestation of the universe itself. Completely lacking the virtues of his troll counterpart Spades Slick, he revels in murder and destruction with no regard for anyone but himself.

edited 10th Aug '16 8:37:45 AM by PhiSat

Oissu!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#65620: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:38:18 AM

[up] Add to the drafts page please (and FYI: It's From Nobody to Nightmare).

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#65621: Aug 10th 2016 at 9:21:17 AM

I wouldn't mind better establishing how we are judging what counts as a sympathetic trait, is the standard for sympathetic traits beyond a reasonable doubt or a simple balance of probabilities?

I agree we don't want to dismiss potentially sympathetic traits out of hand, but we don't want to see a trait as sympathetic if we squint our eyes and look at it sideways for 3 hours, a sympathetic trait should stand out as such a bit.

If a villain is having sex with someone they shouldn't (in this case a pet) its really hard for me think that villain really cares about that object of their desires.

I think sympathetic qualities have to stand out, otherwise Esther Coleman feeling sorry for herself, Kilgrave buying Jessica Jones a house and Commander Dolim's pretenses of being a WIE would discount them, clearly they don't.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#65622: Aug 10th 2016 at 10:42:38 AM

@Scraggle and ACW: The Gardener (Avery's father) gets shot by Avery. Then blasted by an explosion. Then set on fire.

...he lives through all of it and is set to go to trial as soon as he's able. Ugh.

Not acquainted enough with Fallout to know much on Cook Cook, but, looking up the quote regarding his "Queenie", this is what I found, apparently said after Queenie's "death".

"No! Queenie! Hahahaha! I'm going to burn the world for you, Queenie!"

Honestly unsure on it. Again, not very well acquainted with Fallout, so count me as an abstain.

edited 10th Aug '16 10:43:15 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#65623: Aug 10th 2016 at 11:03:48 AM

From what I recall about the actual dialogue, the PC's dialogue options are real creeped out when he mentions Queenie. There are some dark insinuations there, and the explanation's exact dialogue being out of the product doesn't change for me that's what they intended in the end.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#65624: Aug 10th 2016 at 11:06:31 AM

""No! Queenie! Hahahaha!"
Um...he just sounds crazy. Who the hell gives an Evil Laugh after someone they love dies?

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#65625: Aug 10th 2016 at 11:20:13 AM

Here's my entry for Doc Scratch

  • Doc Scratch serves as The Dragon to Lord English. In his bid to summon him into existence, he launches a complex Gambit Roulette spanning two universes. He abusively raises a troll girl as a Handmaid and forces her to manipulate troll history to turn the race from peaceful to hateful and aggressive. He manipulates Vriska into killing Aradia and paralyzing Tavros in order to kick start the events that would lead to his creation. He also sets up the destruction of the entire troll race using an Eldritch Abomination. In the present day, he tricks Rose into creating the Green Sun, the power source of both himself and Bec Noir, using the Tumor, a bomb created from the destruction of two universes, one of which was directly facilitated by him and the other being the result of a Stable Time Loop with the Green Sun's creation. He intending on Rose dying in it and tried to get rid of the others by informing them of a way to essentially reboot their universe that would have wiped them from existence.


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