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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6426: Jan 3rd 2013 at 12:15:05 PM

[up][up] The one that someone said that counts? Elaborate on him.

edited 3rd Jan '13 12:31:11 PM by Krystoff

Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#6427: Jan 3rd 2013 at 12:41:41 PM

Her, actually.

Let's see... What I remember is that she's responsible for most of the crap that happens, and she's willing to risk the destruction of the entire multiverse just because she's jealous of someone who lives in, basically, Eden.

Edit: Ah, she's on Literature for those who want to examine her.

edited 3rd Jan '13 12:49:18 PM by Voyd211

Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6428: Jan 3rd 2013 at 12:52:45 PM

[up] Just read her entry. Sounds like she qualifies, but I don't know anything about the other characters.

edited 3rd Jan '13 12:53:41 PM by Krystoff

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#6429: Jan 3rd 2013 at 12:58:17 PM

@6382 Good cut on Lee. As for Mr. Park, no details are given about anything other than his fate on the page, so he should be cut.

@6385 Ugh... I need to rewrite the two Kingdom Hearts entries and move them to Monster.Video Games. Those are both bad.

@6392 I'm doing a bit more research on Dormammu... I'm starting to be inclined to let him in. He's remarkably like Darkseid. Plus, he isn't quite a God of Evil - he had to rise to his current position, overthrowing his own father. The indications I've been reading suggest that he's more fleshed out and not simply resigned to being evil, that it was instead a conscious choice of his (I'm seeing suggestions that there are others of his race that are not evil). Still more research to be done, though.

@6396 A Complete Monster cannot be sympathetic. It's worth noting, though, that you can have a character have a terrible background but go so far overboard that it's impossible to have sympathy for them despite their background - Femto of Berserk is like that.

Though it doesn't sound like you're writing an Eldritch Abomination, regardless.

@6402 Standards? Yeah, cut.

@6406 Hmm... I'm still caught up on deeds, though. Also, I don't think having worshippers (or there being rumors of having worshippers) counts towards affirming sentience. We could split hairs on animistic faiths, but the fact remains that it's been known throughout human history for some people to worship inanimate objects. You know, like the Random Number God (may my dice always roll criticals).

@6413 Indeed, Rod Ross should be cut, and he's a great example why Word of God is worth a nomination and that's it. For Takuo... hrm... to be honest, I'm not sure that he even counts as the most heinous if you made both the anime and movie versions canonical with the manga. Just look at Higuchi of the Yotsuba group; I think he beats out Takuo for heinousness even without getting into the issue of Light Yagami himself. I'd cut both.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6430: Jan 3rd 2013 at 1:43:09 PM

@ Klavice:

On the Flame Of Recca examples

Mori Kouran: Easy keep. This guy is one of the ultimate examples in all of Shounen manga

Mokuren: I'd say he's an easy keep as well. Mokuren's a downright rat bastard who's just as bad in his own way and is only limited by the power he possesses. he fact that he does worse and worse as he gets stronger reinforces this. He's a sadistic serial killer who glories in the anguish of female victims, betrays his allies without a second thought and murders his lover to gain a brief advantage in battle (who genuinely loved him). It's worth noting that none of this is Off Stage Villainy either. He's just a different type of monster

genjuro: Cut

Nameless fox killing grunt: Also keep

Sokakusei: Keep. Easily as sick as Mokuren in a series that's filledto the brim with lunatic psychos, these two stand out enormously.

Kaima: Also keep. The guy is as bad as Mori in his way and we get to keep what he does to others

I'd also submit the feudal lord that Recca's father fought in the past for consideration

@ Footsteps

On Apophis: It's not just having worshippers: he specifically leads them, and coordinates his confederates as well.

On Dormammu: It's very true that he rose to his current position via treachery. His niece is also not evil, and is one of his chief opponents. While it's also true he accepts a debt to Strange at one point, he immediately tries to figure out how to cheat it. Cloest thing he has to a relationship is his sister Umar and he...doesn't really care about her given the number of times he's double crossed her, and vice versa.It's also worth noting that Strange forces Dormammu to see reason and that a being of his stature is being too petty with his focus on the heroes. Dormammu's response is to focus on a much larger scale for atrocity. He also runs the Dark Dimension like his own personal concentration camp.

As far as race goes, he and Umar are members of the Fatine who were exiled for murdering their father. Dormammu did save the realm from the Mindless Ones, but there's no real altruism there. He just doesn't want his enslaved destroyed when he took it over to be worshipped as its sole lord and deity.

Septentrius Since: Jan, 2013
#6431: Jan 3rd 2013 at 1:50:35 PM

The Desus entry in Tabletop Games is inaccurate; the guy who wrote the "serial killer" bit mixed him up with another character (See forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1545956#post1545956).

So many things disqualify him from being a Complete Monster that it's hard to choose one to focus on.

He's still in love with his wife, his crimes (which fall far short of what the entry describes) are committed under the influence of a supernatural curse, his character writeup explicity states that he isn't a sociopath, and he's done great things in defense of Creation.

edited 3rd Jan '13 1:51:23 PM by Septentrius

willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#6432: Jan 3rd 2013 at 1:54:05 PM

^^ Re:Dormammu: Yeah, that sounds like what I remember from reading Dr. Strange Essentails 1 and 2. I forgot about him giving his word about not messing with earth, IDK if _technically_ being true to his word disqualifies him or not.

edited 3rd Jan '13 1:54:18 PM by willthiswork

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6433: Jan 3rd 2013 at 1:55:54 PM

He doesn't keep it. He only gives it due to other extenuating circumstances, but like immediately after he works on breaking it. He's tried to destroy/enslave earth plenty times, sometimes for no reason other than to hurt or spite Strange.

Keep in mind that he doesn't really give or keep it out of honor or altruism. Magical oaths are incredibly...binding things.

edited 3rd Jan '13 1:56:51 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6434: Jan 3rd 2013 at 2:43:39 PM

@ 6412

Wasn't trying to claim the votes had changed. Just that we never really came to a definite one hundred percent yes/no vote, and that the discussion essentially died as we moved on to other topics.

RE: Keys to the Kingdom. Superior Saturday is listed, and is probably the only one of the seven who can qualify, as she has the longest list of evil deeds, appears throughout multiple books, and has the worst motivations.

RE: Death Note. The only character who isn't Light whom I can see qualifying is Higuchi (Kira #3). Nobody else has the bodycount to hack it.

RE: Desus. I wondered about him when I first saw the entry, but knowing nothing about the series, didn't want to say anything. He doesn't sound like he stacks with the Ebon Dragon, so I'd be inclined to cut anyway.

@6429

On Apophis, the whole leading legions of demons thing is the part that makes me inclined to believe he is sentient. Couple that with the fact that he purportedly has confederates whom he speaks to, and the fact that all other Egyptian gods are sentient, and I'd say that assuming sentience is reasonable option. Some versions of the myths portray him as a deposed King of the Gods, which would definitely make him sentient.

As for his deeds, between being the source of most if not all evil in the Egyptian mythos, trying to end the world by devouring the sun, and destroying every soul he can get his snaky jaws on, I think that's a decent rapsheet.

For those who are curious, when I say that Apophis obliterates souls, I mean exactly that. He doesn't kill people; he causes an immediate Cessation of Existence. You don't go to the afterlife, you don't wander the world as a ghost, or anything of that sort. You are simply gone. In Ancient Egypt, a culture that was essentially built around ensuring that every soul reached its proper destination in the afterlife, this was the ultimate taboo (and is still a pretty big deal today; the notion is one of the main reasons why death is a Primal Fear, and why we choose to believe in some kind of afterlife). Within the mythos, the gods would inflict it as a punishment on only the very worst sinners (and I can't think of a single story of somebody actually recieving it; the notion just sort of sits there like a possibility). And here's Apophis inflicting it on every person who comes within breathing range. Something to think about.

edited 3rd Jan '13 2:50:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#6435: Jan 3rd 2013 at 3:30:35 PM

^^ IIRC he does technically keep it, he just cheats. Since there was nothing forcing him to even do that much, it could possibly count as some sort of honor.

He does not keep to the _spirit_ of his word at all, though, so IDK.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#6436: Jan 3rd 2013 at 3:47:02 PM

Say, was the decision to cut Spandam made in this thread? I think he's waaaaaaay less sympathetic than Sakazuki, myself.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6437: Jan 3rd 2013 at 3:48:14 PM

See the 1st post in re: Was it already discussed?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#6438: Jan 3rd 2013 at 3:51:52 PM

[up][up][up][up]I think some historians feel that the importance of the afterlife to ancient Egyptians has been exaggerated - if most of the ruins from our civilization were its gravesites, future archaeologists would think the same about us - but that's still a pretty significant point. While I'm reluctant to have a mythology/religion section for this trope at all, if we must have one, I'm voting in favor of including Apophis.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#6439: Jan 3rd 2013 at 3:52:39 PM

[up][up] Gotcha, that argument makes sense.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#6440: Jan 3rd 2013 at 4:15:13 PM

I deleted the Didact and Haka from Halo. Also the Dragon Age page has been locked. If there's no objections in two days I'll delete Candie and Stephen from the Django Unchained page.

@6402: Yes, cut Amanda from Saw. She does have standards, regrets, and cares about Jigsaw and, originally, believed in his altruistic goals.

@6413: I'd cut Rod Ross for his evilness being a Word of God Informed Ability. Takuo sounds closer but based on what everyone's saying it sounds like he fails the heinous standard so I'd be alright with cutting him.

@6422: Sounds like Superior Saturday counts.

@6425: Flame Of Recca examples:

  • Mori Kouran: Sounds like a definite keep. His entry needs to be severely condensed however.
  • Mokuren: Based on what lightysnake said @6430 and his entry, I'd keep him. He's limited by power not lack of evil nature.
  • Genjuro: It sounds like he drastically fails the heinous standard. Cut.
  • Unnamed Scientist: Similar to the above. He's just not as heinous in comparison. I vote cut.
  • Nameless Grunt: Animal cruelty doesn't sound so monstrous in the grand scheme of things. I vote cut here as well.
  • Sokakusei: I'm leaning towards keep.
  • Kaima: His entry on the Flame of Recca page makes me consider keeping him. Really, it just depends what crimes he does onscreen.
  • Kadotsu: His entry doesn't make him sound as heinous as others on the page as it sounds like there are a lot of Serial Killers in that series. I'm thinking cut.

@6429: I'll wait for more information but it sounds like Dormammu may count.

@6431: I agree with cutting Desus.

Are there any other opinions on the Grand Theft Auto examples I brought up here? So far I have two votes against Low, one vote against Bulgarin and one vote to keep Bulgarin.

edited 3rd Jan '13 4:17:40 PM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6441: Jan 3rd 2013 at 4:22:53 PM

@ Willthiswork

This is kind of an...interesting case, as Dormammu giving a word of honor was literally his first appearance where it seems Lee and Ditko hadn't really gotten down his characterization as of yet. Subsequent appearances show him as having no honor in the matter whatsoever and being fully willing to break or subvert his word. It's like Batman being a killer originally...a character not nailed down. Given Dormammu immediately thinks of ways around this bond?

I'm gonna have to agree the only guy I see there is Higuchi. Light I've never seen as an altruist. His 'rid the world of crime' goal was subject to immediate motive decay and the product of ego, as opposed to altruism. It's far too controversial to list here, though.

As for a start, though...I have promised a lot of writeups and I intend to deliver. I will begin with these two.

Trigon the Terrible from Teen Titans and Darth Nihilus from Star Wars Knights Ofthe Old Republic

Trigon:

Who is he? Trigon is an interdimensional demon who rules over a vast swath of territory with an iron fist. Trigon is the child of a member of a cult, and the god the cult worshiped, imbuing him with dark powers from birth. Trigon enters the series as an overlord and conqueror, intending to destroy or conquer the world.

What has he done? Trigon has a rap sheet that's pretty damned impressive, considering the Titans' usual villains. At the age of six, he obliterated an entire planet. At the age of thirty, he began ruling millions of worlds as a brutal dictator. He disguises himself as a handsome man and seduced a woman named Arella to bear him a child (before assuming his true form and giving her a "Haha, knocked you up with the antichrist!" before vanishing. In the present, he slowly corrupts his daughter, Raven's, soul, arrives on earth and kills a bunch of people just to make the point resistance won't be tolerate. He locks the Teen Titans in visions where they see their souls corrupted. He destroyed Arella's homeworld Azarath and attempts to do the same for earth.

Does The character have an excuse for anything to balance out their evil?

Short answer? No. Long answer, hell no. Trigon has no freudian excuse, no glimmer of altruism. The closest he has to affection is Raven, and he's perfectly willing to kill her or let her die if she's too weak or gets in his way.

now, That done, let's turn to Darth Nihilus

Who Is he? Darth Nihilus is the Dark Lord of the Sith following the defeat of Darth Malak. Nihilus is unique for the Sith due to his nature: he is less a man and more a malevolent mass of dark energy contained in his armor, that is filled with relentless hunger. Nihilus pursues a vicious campaign against the surviving Jedi through his subordinates, and to feed his hunger. Nihilus is a good example of From Nobody to Nightmare. During the vicious Mandalorian Wars, Nihilus was just another Jedi knight. When the world Malachor V was destroyed, the massive loss of life was too much for this nameless Jedi to bear and he became a wound in the Force, drawing it into himself. He and his fellow survivor, Darth Sion, were trained at the ruined Malachor v's Trayus Academy by Darth Traya until they turned on her and banished her, with Nihilus claiming leadership.

What does he do? Nihilus kills entire worlds. In the game itself, this might be Off Screen Villainy, but in the supplement comic Unseen, Unheard, we get a very clear image of the death of the world Katarr, and the world dying with its people. Nihilus chased the jedi to Katarr and proceeded to devour them, along with the entire world and the vast majority of the population, with only one survivor, who survived because of circumstances Nihilus himself didn't understand. Nihilus drains the life of those around him to feed his hunger, turning them into slaves, and while it's implied he doesn't do this consciously, when his attention turns to you, such passive Mind Rape is pleasant compared to what he'll do when he puts effort into it. When Darth Sion tries to assert independence, Nihilus brutally breaks him into rank. When his apprentice Visas Marr does...well, nothing wrong whatsoever but question an idea of his, he savagely tortures her into doing what he said without any question. As for his former mentor, Darth Traya, Nihilus didn't just strip her of her rank: he stripped her of the Force. Such a fate is horrible for a Jedi. It's worse than blinding a man, or destroying his hearing. It's severing such a vital part from them, that they can scarce bear to be without it. The main fact here is that Nihilus is not an engine of hunger. He's shown to take pleasure and feed off suffering and death (it's implied the feeding is utter agony), and he lets Traya live, as he feels with Sion that it's a worse fate than death.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse or other trait to balance out his evil?

This one is a bit more complex. Nihilus wasn't always a monster. but we have no info on the man he was before his transformation. While some argue that Nihilus is beyond good and evil and just an engine of hunger, this isn't true. he has a personality. While he's a slave to his hunger, he still possesses a vicious hatred for life and takes pleasure in extinguishing it, unlike, say, Galactus.

Nihilus also has his apprentice, Visas Marr, the one survivor of Katarr. It's worth noting he didn't intentionally spare her. In fat, he had no idea she had survived. He was so surprised, he went down to collect her personally, and Mind Raped her into serving him. Miraluka, for those who don't know, are blind and see through the Force itself. They have no eyes. In a rather twisted gesture, Nihilus personally carved eye sockets into her face as a parody of this. His agency is also estabished via Traya: he could have just killed and ate her on the spot, but instead he chooses a path to let her suffer more by letting Sion beat the living daylights out of her and then exiling her from Malachor V.

Nihilus, again, might be compelled to devour, but he does it in such a hideous way. Nothing forces him to take pleasure in it, and the little touches like Visas and Traya show that he is not a mindless mass of hunger.

@ Occasional Exister:

Kaima is a Posthumous Character, but Recca is a series that loves flashbacks, so we get to see him do what he does. Plus, he revives and gets to assist Mori in a lot of stuff.

I'll also throw in a vote to keep Bulgarin

edited 3rd Jan '13 4:25:43 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6442: Jan 3rd 2013 at 4:53:11 PM

[up][up]Sounds like Bulgarin and Low should go. Given the stuff that you, as the player character, can and do get up to in GTA, a villain would have to be contemplating some very black deeds before they can make the list.

@njrxll

Happy to have your vote. That makes three for Apophis, not counting my own. Well I'm not one hundred percent happy about the idea of having to do a myth and religion page myself, I think it will save us a lot of hassle in the long run, if, as a group, we gather together the best examples we can find, from a long list of mythos' and religions, put them on one page, and then lock it.

[up]Trigon's easily the worst of the villains the Teen Titans face, and managed to push close to this trope in the freaking children's cartoon. I have no real issues with keeping him; he just needs a write-up that includes all the information you mentioned here. As for Nihilus, assuming your description is accurate, you tentatively have my vote. It sounds like he's hit Palpatine/Tarkin level evil.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6443: Jan 3rd 2013 at 4:59:25 PM

I feel compelled to post this image from Wookieepedia, too, just to give a sense of what he did to Visas. These are the actions of someone who is plain cruel on levels unrelated to his hunger.

I feel like I've promised more on Star Wars examples, so let me go on:

Lord Odion, from Knight Errant

Who Is He?

Lord Odion is the ruler of the Odionate, one of the largest (and most imaginatively named) territories of Sith Space, over a thousand years before The Phantom Menace. In this time period, the Sith rule the vast majority of the galaxy, and are divided up into territories between the Sith. Odion is the eldest son of the Sith Lady Xelian, and the grandson of the closest thing to a Dark Lord of the Sith there is, Lady Vilia Calimondra. As to Odion himself, Odion rules his territory with a rather vicious philosophy: the meaninglessness of life and the embrace of death and nothingness. Odion believes all life is there for one purpose: for him to end it.

Odion was responsible for the deaths of heroine Kerra Holt's parents, and leads brutal campaigns against his fellow Sith with no real care of who he catches in the crossfire (occasionally the crossfire is his entire aim in the first place)

What has he done?

Odion starts the series by killing Kerra Holt's mentor, Vannar Treece. Basic stuff, admittedly. When he fights Kerra, Odion reveals his philosophy of beings existing to be killed by him. His aim in the first arc, Aflame, is pretty nasty: Odion aims to use mining machines as one in order to obliterate his hated younger brother, Sith Lord Daiman's favorite world...the world is fully populated, but to Odion, that's a bonus.

Odion features very little in arc 2, Deluge, but Arc 3, Escape, is where Odion gets the spotlight. Odion starts off by forcing bankers to attack a hungry rancor (and for added benefit does a bit of Mind Rape to make them do it so he can enjoy it more), and then finds a relic he's long sought, called the Helm of Ieldis, Ieldis being a long dead Sith Lord (and if we ever see Ieldis in the flesh, I have to do a writeup for him, too). when he uses it, Odion can twist the minds of others, forcing them into a murderous rages on other sentients, or into suicide. This magnifies Odion's natural power to the point where he intends to use it, and actually does use it to force every single living being in the galaxy to die and is seconds away from this.

Then there's how he actually runs the Odionate. Odion keeps every single child imprisoned in individual pods so they can be educated by hologram. Literally building a realm without hope, one child at a time. How does he generate enough pain and terror to power the helm of Ieldis to kill every sentient? Why, he simply turns off all the lights in the children's chambers...children who have never experienced darkness plunged into it. Odion lets their minds create the terrors for him, and basks in it.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse for any other factor to mitigate his evil?

The writer of Knight Errant loves subverting this sort of thing. Odion has a sort of excuse in that ever since Daiman was born, he's suffered painful headaches that the deaths of others mitigate. However, Odion really enjoy murder. This is essentially "I have a bad headache, so I'm using the deaths of others as my painkillers." He's not regretful, or remorseful, or anything of the sort. he's a brutal sadist who'd do this all anyways, and the pleasure of the relief is just an added bonus.In the comic itself, Odion never uses this for sympathy, nor is any ever shown. Kerra even points out that it's even worse: He is trying to kill all life just to make himself feel a bit better. He is so bad, even a Jedi won't save him.

Otherwise, the answer is no. Odion doesn't really show altruism to anyone. He doesn't give a fuck about his family, and even the other Sith Lords unite to stop him at the end. Out of self preservation if nothing else, but still.

edited 3rd Jan '13 5:24:58 PM by Lightysnake

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#6444: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:27:14 PM

" He's suffered painful headaches that the deaths of others mitigate."

How does that work?

Also, going ahead and deleting those Death Note examples. Thanks for the imput.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6445: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:27:23 PM

Speaking of mythology and religion, I was searching around the Internet, and I found another possibility. It's from Mesopotamian religion, so obviously the bar is set high (the Sumerian gods in particular are jackasses par excellence), but I think it might just be uniquely nasty enough to pass our criteria. Everybody, meet Lamashtu, from Sumerian and Akkadian mythology.

Who is Lamashtu?

Lamashtu is a demon/demigoddess from Sumerian and Akkadian myth, whose perview is harming children and pregnant women, among other things (which we'll get to below). She is usually depicted as a hybrid with the face of a lion or jackal, a donkey's ears, a hairy body, and the feet of a bird. She is frequently pictured atop a donkey, nursing a snake or pig. She is one of the daughters of Anu, the sky god, and rebelled against him. For those wondering, yes she's the one the Pathfinder goddess is based upon.

What sort of evil deeds does she commit? Are they heinous by the standards of the story?

  • She sneaks into houses at night, and touches the bellies of pregnant women to cause miscarriages and death by childbirth.
  • Steals newborn infants and allows them to suckle at the toxic milk in her breasts, causing them to die.
  • Kills/eats mothers and expectant mothers.
  • Lures young men outside, drinks their blood, and dines on their flesh.
  • Is repsonsible for nightmares, insomnia, and other sleep disorders.
  • Kills foliage and causes the deaths of crops.
  • Poisons water and rivers.

As far as heinousness goes, Lamashtu's pretty bad. The Sumerian/Akkadian gods are dicks, but none of them behave in this sort of calculated way (they typically throw a temper tantrum, regret it, and in some cases try to make amends), and I can't remember any myths where they deliberately targeted children. In her choice of victims, and the way she goes about her business, Lamashtu is grotesquely unique. Poisoning water would also be an enormous deal in any desert society, while harming infants is a big deal no matter where you are and what society you're in. I'll add that none of her crimes are carried out by intermediaries, the way some demons do it—Lamashtu is a hands on type of monster.

It's worth noting that Lamashtu was so hated and reviled by the Sumerians and Akkadians, that they would often invoke Pazzuzu, King of the Wind Demons, and bringer of drought and famine, against her. Pregnant women would wear amulets with Pazzuzu's likeness on them in order to ward off Lamashtu or her minions. Apparently in Sumeria and Akkadia, Even Evil Has Standards, and the presence of the spirit responsible for famine was preferrable to that of an infant-murdering bloodsucker. Pass.

Does she ever behave altruistically or show concern for another being?

No. Lamashtu is a killer, plain and simple. She doesn't care about any other living beings, and exists only to do evil. While she can be chased off by invoking Pazzuzu, or bribed with gifts, she always comes back at the first opportunity. Pass.

Does she have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factor?

No. Lamashtu's father, Anu, is actually one of the nicest gods, and is usually seen as a protector from evil, so her turn to villainy is straight out of left field. Unlike other demons in Sumerian and Akkadian myth, she's not an agent of divine wrath either. She's a free agent, who choses to hurt children and pregnant women because she doesn't have any herself. Pass. For those who are interested, a prayer against Lamashtu may be read here*

I think she's a keeper, as even by the standards of the mythos she's in, she's pretty bad. None of the gods are as bad as her, and going by Pazzuzu's reaction, not only do other demons dislike her, but their presence is prefferable to hers. Thoughts?

edited 3rd Jan '13 5:51:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6446: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:32:52 PM

[up][up] Odion can perceive the existence of the others and it causes him physical pain. Every time he kills someone, the death is like pleasure, and mitigates the pain a little.

I do stress though, this is not an excuse. It just makes him enjoy it more. He makes multiple very sadistic choices, choosing to inflict pain and torture for his own entertainment.

And again, bad headaches aren't really an excuse for trying to exterminate all life and rule over the graveyard. He's also so damn gleeful about what he does

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#6447: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:35:59 PM

... But if he didn't kill anyone, would he be in pain all the time?

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6448: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:38:00 PM

It's implied it's due to jealousy and hatred towards his brother, Daiman.

The main thing, though is that Odion, despite his headaches, is fully functional. He's reached a point where pain is so normal that everyone he kills is more like a jolt of pleasure or a high for him. Odion isn't sitting around, moaning in agony all the time. He's a very active, malicious guy. Until arc 3, you'd have no idea he feels said pain. And like I said, there's a difference in how he goes about it. When he has the bankers captive, he doesn't just kill them quick. He Mind Rapes them into attacking a rancor with sticks and finds it absolutely hysterical

I have a feeling his brother will qualify later as well, but he hasn't yet done enough to live up to Odion.

John Jackson Miller tends to do this quite a bit: provide villains with a backstory and an excuse that is almost sufficient, but then points out that it's not nearly enough to excuse them, that these guys are horrible monsters in spite of it and do things for their own pleasure that the excuse doesn't cover, like Chantique and Demagol from the KOTOR comics

And a vote to Lamashtu here

edited 3rd Jan '13 5:44:18 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6449: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:47:01 PM

[up]Define painful headache. Are we talking constant migraine, or sanity shattering embolism?

One vote for Lamashtu. Will keep count.

edited 3rd Jan '13 5:48:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6450: Jan 3rd 2013 at 5:49:12 PM

Painful migraine, not the former.

I should also mention Odion does respect some of his men. He still plans to drive them insane and kill them later, though. Respect might be the wrong word, though. Odion believes that no being is worth anything, even them.

edited 3rd Jan '13 5:52:53 PM by Lightysnake


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